In this episode, Alexandre Christoyannopoulos, author of Christian Anarchism, Tolstoy's Political Thought, and Essays in Anarchism and Religion, joins your host Craig Harguess alongside our beloved Bad Roman contributor, Nicholas Harrelson, from across the pond. He literally wrote the book on Christian anarchism. Alex is French and Greek, he is from Belgium and has lived in the UK since 1997. He holds a BA in economics, a MA in international relations and European studies, and a Ph.D. in politics and religion. He has studied all the major thinkers in anarchism and written several academic publications, which you can (and should) explore on his website.
In addition to being an expert scholar on Christian Anarchy, Alex is a teacher, lecturer, and Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy. On the show, he shares what he has learned, about Jesus and Anarchy and how we can better examine our own philosophy on the topic.
The episode is a wide-ranging conversation that covers everything from pacifism and turning the other cheek to Romans 13 and the many strains of anarchism – how we can all work together? Was Jesus really an anarchist?
EPISODE TIMESTAMPS:
2:15 Alex’s Timeline
Did not start off life religious
Grew up in Belgium with Greek and French parents
Went to uni in England
Near the end of his MA, developing curiosity in religion
Literally finished his degree as 9/11 happened
Decided to pursue Ph.D. in the relationship between religious and political structures
Started studying what Jesus said
Then found Tolstoy
Changed Ph.D. to his political/religious philosophy
Tolstoy takes Jesus literally and applies His teaching to the state
But there are gaps
He ignores Paul
He doesn’t address “render unto Caesar”
Went down the rabbit hole of other writers about Jesus and politics
Wound up with a thesis on Christian Anarchism
Goal: to take what others have said about Jesus’ political views and weave them together
7:52 Craig’s Timeline
10:36 Interpreting Scripture leads to anarchy
You can make the Bible support almost any point you make
But it’s pretty clear and consistent on love and non-violence
Turning the other cheek is what sets Christianity apart
The cross is an example of love and forgiveness even unto death
It’s often the rejection of violence that leads to the rejection of the state
Christianity, if followed consistently, means rejecting violence
The state is violent
The state causes citizens to be violent
It claims a monopoly on “legal/good” violence
The average Christians firmly believe we need to infiltrate the state
“There’s no evidence of Jesus using the state to promote His message of peace.” - Craig
15:00 Nick’s Timeline
Liberal
Southerner, patriotic
Military: 2 tours in Iraq, wounded, many friends committed suicide after
Worked in the senate 3 years
Came to pacifism from reading Tolstoy
Reconciled Christianity with his new view on the world
Recognized the state runs on coercion and violence
“I came to realize that, to remain consistent, I had to probably be an anarchist as well.” - Nick
Identified with Tolstoy’s military experience
Sunday Christians
“It’s like we go into a church and turn on this mindset, and then we leave the church and think nothing of it for the rest of the week.” - Nick
Tolstoy offered consistency
18:08 Following the Early Church
“Not everything that can be done through the state has to rely on violence in order to achieve anything, but a lot of it does. A lot of laws ultimately rely on the threat of violence.” - Alex
The Early Church had nothing to do with Rome
Some of them knew Jesus
Maybe we should follow their example
It’s risky and uncertain to go against the status quo
24:19 Anarchism vs Christian Anarchism
In anarchism, there is a spectrum from very confrontational to strictly non-confrontational
Christian spectrum
From turning over the tables to turning the other cheek
But we must resist evil, even if we cannot use violence
27:20 Turning the other cheek
Not passive action
Surprises attacker
Makes observers question who is in the right
Gives you the higher moral ground
Clearly communicates that you do not approve of what the attacker is defending
30:01 Violence or Pacifism?
Martin Luther King Jr. followed in the way of Gandhi
“You’re going to push the state away a lot quicker by being non-violent because the state only understands violence.” - Craig
A lot of people have emulated Gandhi and had peaceful movements of resistance
A study was done in 2011 compared different campaigns against oppression,
Nonviolent ones were twice as effective
and more likely to last peacefully after the oppressors had been defeated
All fights against oppression are more likely to fail than succeed
Reacting violently pulls the enemy together against you
Non-violence might cause some of the people involved to question what they're doing
Martin Luther King jr. learned a lot about his nonviolent tactics from Gandhi
C.S. Lewis would argue that all truths point towards God
Gandhi was a fan of Jesus but didn't like the way Christians were living
Dr. King learned a lot about how Jesus lived and taught from a non-Christian
A lot of Christians take inspiration from Tolstoy
but they're afraid to admit it
He's an "awkward Christian" because he doesn't hold to some theological views
“Go back to the source– as in picking up the Bible, reading it and thinking, ‘Well, this is more radical than they tell us every Sunday.’” - Alex
Anabaptists and Catholic Workers are good current examples of peaceful radicals
41:15 Jesus and Paul
Simplify. Focus on Jesus.
Theology gets so messy and confusing
We are not followers of Paul
If Jesus was really the son of God and rose from the dead, shouldn't we view him as the most important person to follow?
Romans 13
The chapter on obeying government
Addressed in Alex's book
Maybe an exegesis on The Sermon on the Mount
Must be read In the context of chapter 12
44:17 Anarchist societies
Monastic orders
The Benedict Option
Communities that defy the state simply by ignoring it
Tolstoy believed that Jesus’ orders were not to become separate from the world but to live within it
To be different, maybe even “awkward”
but not withdrawn
The Catholic Workers have a community in rural areas
but hospitality houses in urban places
48:19 Anarcho-capitalism?
A hot potato topic
Most anarchists believe that their ideals push people toward mutual aid
Capitalism is fundamentally against that
It’s about competition
And individual land ownership
Which, at the end of the day, requires some sort of police force to enforce
What happens when your accumulation of land starts to be to the detriment of others?
52:34 Secular versus Christian anarchists
Often work together just fine
Usually, there's some line drawn
Won’t work with violent groups
Won’t work with capitalists
Some anarchists can't stand the idea of having Christ as King
They won't even ally themselves with Christian anarchists
Craig: Why do we allow labels and divisions? There’s bigger fish to fry.
“We have the same goals: to see the state go away and to live our life peacefully.” - Craig
They don’t have to have Christ as King in order to be allies
Many anarchists say you must revoke religion to join
Because there must be no authority
Others just say we must be against the state
Christians reject the state for 2 general reasons
Violence
Idolatry
Some people say rejecting the state is not enough to call yourself an anarchist
What everyone can agree on
We're against domination
Most anarchists find themselves passionate about connected issues
These are not necessarily addressed in the Gospels
But anarchists see them as essential
And get upset if others don’t
“Keep it simple, Stupid” - Craig
1:03:17 People's entrances into anarchism
From different political sides
Different religious views
Different economic philosophies
Everyone takes small steps
Maybe instead of getting mad at people for thinking differently, we should just be patient
Maybe they'll eventually learn
No need to scream in horror at the very notion of anarcho-capitalism
“[If] it's an avenue through which people come your way, then don't close it.” - Alex
1:06:27 Ideological Scale
Communism emphasizes equality over freedom
Capitalism/liberalism emphasizes freedom over equality
Anarchism tries to hold both in equal importance
Defends against both communism and capitalism
But who will take care of the vulnerable?
With great freedom comes great responsibility
We should use our freedom to help
1:09:21 Liturgical versus Protestant Christian Antichrists
Most come from Protestant backgrounds
They are encouraged to read and interpret scriptures for themselves
1:14:48 The first Jewish government
The Jews choose a state instead of God
When Jesus comes, they expect Him to rule according to the type of government they had demanded
rather than the type of rule they had before there were kings in Israel
Satan tries to give Jesus a kingdom,
but he already had a Kingdom
He didn't want the earthly one Satan offered
1:16:30 God uses the state
Something that He wishes we rejected, but He still uses nonetheless
Despite what’s evil or problematic about it
This doesn’t mean we do everything the state demands
Pay your taxes
But give everything else to God
God wants us to have faith in Him rather than the state
Follow Jesus’ example rather than the state’s demands when they conflict
Everything warned about in Samuel, our US government is doing
“Why are you going to put these people in power when you've already got a king? The best king of all?” - Craig
1:19:40 Were Jesus and the Early Church truly anarchists?
Yes…
But the term “anarchist” didn’t exist back then
And the Roman Empire was different from our form of government
Answer expounded on in this The Stockholm University Press publication (go directly to the chapter discussed)
It gets complicated
… but yes
1:22:25 Plugs
Recommend starting with Christian Anarchism to get a general understanding
Related Episodes
