About this episode

Terrell Carter is a pastor and the president of a community development organization. At 16, he felt the call to ministry to do what he can to improve people’s lives and help different groups understand each other. At 23, he thought he could do that as a police officer, and they offered him benefits that would support his growing family. After 5 years, he had to quit because he wouldn’t stand for the corruption in the force and testified against his partner. He’s written several books and runs Rise, a nonprofit organization working to connect communities with local institutions to empower the revitalization of neighborhoods in Greater St. Louis, while pastoring a church and raising his children.

Terrell has come on the podcast to shed light on his unique perspectives and experiences. He shares with us what it was like growing up black in a predominantly white community, how the police force didn’t fit with his life of Kingdom mission, and what it looks like to actually carry out the call of God to care for other people. One of his life goals is to bring different groups of people together through an understanding of each other, and today he is doing that by sharing his own story with us, who mostly come from a different background than his.

Episode Timestamps:

5:23 Terrell’s story

African American
Has a twin brother
Grandparents and parents were teen parents
Parents got married, but didn't stay together after Dad went into the army
- But Dad’s parents helped raise them
Parents didn’t get through high school
Mom got in with bad crowds
- Boys moved in with grandparents
- She was murdered when boys were 7
Everything is dedicated to his grandparents because without them, he would have never succeeded
Moved in with Dad’s new family in Texas at 14
Only issues were people being suspicious of them since it was a predominantly white town
- But Brother graduated 4th in class; he graduated 11th
- His brother won several writing competitions; he won awards for art
- Both played sports
- Both earned academic and athletic scholarships
- Brother still plays baseball
At 16, Terrell heard the call to ministry
- Not just made to soak everything up
  - But to influence God’s people from a leadership position
Returned to St Louis after graduating high school
- It was a completely different place
- In 4 years, the community went from majority homeowners to gang members
- The first thing their grandparents told them was: don’t wear red or blue
- Still a majority white city
  - Now, everyone thought black young men were all criminals
    - Didn’t know that Terrell was in Bible college
    - His brother had just placed in a huge writing competition
    - They were both in college and working jobs and creating beauty and attending church
Married
- Both he and his brother wanted to be husbands and fathers
When his wife got pregnant, he looked for a job to provide for all their needs
- Became a police officer
  - Paid for him to finish college
  - Pension
Started on patrol; wound up on the toughest corner in the city. At night.
Reassigned to plainclothes narcotics investigator
- Kicking down doors, search warrants…
- Turns out, his partner was into illegal activities
  - Terrell didn’t lie for him
    - Because he fears God
    - And because his partner was disrespecting people who were in a different place in life than he was
  - His partner did about 5 years in federal prison
  - When Terrell found out he was going to actually testify in court, he quit his job
    - He was being threatened by multiple people
    - “I had been told in no uncertain terms that if I tried to stand up for those kinds of things, then I would find myself out on the street by myself and something was going to happen to me.” -Terrell
Went through multiple careers
Got second doctorate
Now president of Rise, a community development organization
- Also, exhibiting art
- Writing books
- And pastoring a church
Life calling: to try and help people understand each other and see God’s image in one another
- That’s really everyone's calling

18:39 Why Terrell needed to come on the show

Craig heard Terrell on Michael Storm’s show, Toward Anarchy
Craig grew up in West Texas with maybe one black kid K-8
- In middle school in San Angelo, there was a mix of races
- High school in Fort Worth, was even more, diverse
  - Got to know kids in his class who didn’t fit negative stereotypes
  - Played sports together
- Now in Memphis, the most diverse city he’s lived in
“One of the challenges we have as Christians in the 21st century is we don't embrace that diversity.” - Terrell
3 books were written to help white Christians Understand that their experience is different from everyone else's
MLK said that the most segregated hour of the week is during church
- People worship with people they’re similar to
- If there’s someone of a different race within a majority church, chances are, they're of the same economic background as the rest of the congregation
  - Still have a common understanding of the world; speak the same language

23:12 Terrell’s time on the force

Arresting somebody knowing they were a child of God
- “Whatever their life circumstances may have been… God created them and I don't get to judge them based on how their life turned out.” - Terrell
There was a church parking lot in St. Louis where he used to write police reports
- The pastor got killed by a kid he had taken under his wing
  - No one wanted to take over his position
  - Terrell’s seminary asked him to step in
He worried someone he arrested would come in and lash out at him
- He had a signal to his wife to get the kids and flee
- Someone he’d arrested for domestic violence approached him
  - And said thank you
  - Terrell had treated him like a human
    - Talked to him on the way to jail
    - Encouraged him to turn his life around
      - He did
- Terrell got in trouble at work for trying to help people improve
  - The police department just wants the cops to gather statistics and arrest people, not care about them
“I didn't treat people like they were animals. I tried to treat them like they were children of God and that they may be experiencing a negative life circumstance, but that didn't have to be where they were going.” - Terrell
- Not the normal attitude
- They were never told to go help people; they were told to not do anything stupid
Could work a secondary job (like security) in uniform with all rights and power of a policeman
- A sergeant told him to stop and just get overtime instead

29:48 Craig’s background

Wore a thin blue line bracelet
Defending all cops’ actions
- “They’re just following/enforcing the law”
Realized police are there to protect the state, not citizens
Then George Floyd got killed
- Murdered
- Craig would have once been one of the guys saying, “If he had just not resisted, he would not have been killed”

32:02 How we got here

White people are in power and everyone else is subject
- That’s the system that's in place
  - Doesn't make white people bad
- Certain people groups’ existence has been criminalized
  - Black women have been dubbed “welfare queens” – by a president
    - For the record, white women use social services more
  - Black men are assumed to be violent criminals
    - The culture of fear surrounding black people has been built up
  - Policing began to control the Native American population trying to get their land back
    - And then escaped or released slaves
Police are there to protect against all crimes and criminalized peoples
- “It doesn't matter what a police officer does, as long as they make white people feel better or feel protected, then we're okay.” -Terrell
- But if police treat white people like they do minorities, they get in legal trouble
  - Minorities are believed to deserve it
White people often ask, “Why didn’t he just cooperate?”
- Why can’t they just do what they’re told??
  - Sounds like a slavery question
- Why can’t they get along with everyone else?
- “That's from a position of power when you have not experienced what these people groups have experienced. And so that's part of what the challenge is.” - Terrell
- The state is an agent of slavery
Sports example
- Lebron James tried to speak out
  - Was silenced
  - “Just because he makes millions of dollars doesn't mean that people respect or view him as fully human. No, they view him as a commodity for their entertainment.” - Terrell

38:18 Trying to reconcile policing as a Christian (not to mention a pastor)

“There's no way to reconcile them other than saying, ‘I'm just going to do what I'm told. I'm not going to think about it.’” - Terrell
- Told himself there were no other prospects
From the very beginning, people were expecting him to falsify reports
He was told to go with the system
- Pushback was dangerous

41:43 Terrell’s life now

Has a handful of friends from the force
Many officers have forgotten the past
- But writing books opens old wounds
Most are still mad he didn't toe the line
All his friends from the force kept being cops
- Some acquaintances quit
Several readers of his books have told him they wish they could have been as brave as he was
- Or that someone in their department would have stood up because maybe they would have joined him

44:04 Rise

Community development corporation that seeks to make safer, healthier, more equitable communities and neighborhoods in St. Louis city and St. Louis, Madison, and St. Claire counties in Illinois
Builds or assists others in building affordable housing
- Government funds cut the rent just about in half for those in need
- Give funds to female or minority-owned construction companies
- Fund developers who are looking to improve the health of the community
- Assist cities and municipalities with planning
Fits pretty well with the call to make people's lives better