About this Episode
Three brilliant minds join us on this episode to talk about what made them decide Christian universalism makes the most sense compared to other theologies. They share their personal stories as well as Scriptures to explain why Hell cannot exist, everyone will be together with Jesus in the end, and what that means for our current life here on Earth. These three are Abby Cleckner, Scott Goldman, and Aree Spivey from Failed Kingdoms – the artist of our intro song. Find him on YouTube and Kindle Vella, among other platforms.
God is love. God is just. God is infinitely merciful. God is not willing that any should perish. So, why do most Christians balk at the idea that God doesn’t send people to eternal punishment or obliterate them after death? We’ve been trained in what the correct answers are and never to question what the pastor says. But have you ever even truly thought it through for yourself?
Episode Timestamps:
00:37 Is Universalism Biblical or heretical?
The main reason for the question
Many good Early Church quotes come from universalists
Commonly accepted in the church today as a pejorative
Even though universalism is rejected
2:50 Abby’s Religious Background
Grew up typical protestant
Went to church on Sundays
But it never really meant anything
Switched to Lutheran and Methodist
Moved a lot, so lots of different churches
Church was a ritual she hated
Swore she’d never go as an adult
And never make her kids go
Invited to Evangelical church in high school
No one dressed up
There were no hymnals
They played guitars
And it was more about relationship with God than ritual
About learning, studying, growing
But then in studying, came to stories like God commanding [Saul] to kill every man, woman, and child
Shocked that God would command him to kill babies
More and more stories like that that didn’t sit right built up
Didn’t align with who she knew God to be
“Study and ask questions, but not those kinds of questions.” - leaders Abby talked to at church
You’re just supposed to accept it and move on
Listened to podcasts
Learned about church history
The rich diversity of beliefs
Christian universalism
What majority of early Christians believed
Hell
“If you take the idea of Hell really seriously, you can never have peace.” - Abby
In relationships
Felt so guilty
Felt a responsibility to save all their souls
Hurry, in case they die today
“Jesus left paradise to come down and serve the suffering. And so how could He just let people suffer in Hell?” - Abby
“...people, I love, if they were in Hell, what would I do to get them out? How much more would God do that for them?” - Abby
7:23 Scott’s Religious Background
Raised Pentecostcal
Then Foursquare
Hell was a big thing
His churches were big on fire and brimstone
Got married
Then really came to God
Had to accept that his wife was headed to Hell
When she got saved, it was such a relief
Driving around with friends, sharing the love of Jesus
One said he wasn’t interested and asked what would happen
Well… you could kind of go to Hell
“That sounds like a threat”
Something in the air wasn’t right
Scared for his children’s souls
Especially when his oldest became a rebellious teen
You hope they get into the Word
Become that little worship leader you want them to be
Learned about annhilationism
Seemed more Scriptural
“...our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers.”
This changed everything
Started reading Keith Giles
Currently listening to Graces Saves All by David Artman
Outlines why everything in the Bible points to universal salvation
Would sit in church and worry that those who didn’t go to the altar and repent would die, unsaved, in a car crash on the way home
Fear is not a great motivator for Scott;
Grace always is
And Jesus didn’t go around threatening people
He gave them grace
Grace doesn’t mean we do what we want
It motivates us to do better
Fear might motivate some people
But it’s not something Jesus ever used
Inerrancy
Puts more stock in Gospels than Epistles
Many believe the entire Bible is God’s Word
Jesus is the Word
The Gospels are about Jesus
Some were written by people who were with him every day
12:42 Ari’s Religious Background
Grew up in black charismatic churches
Preached lots of hellfire
N-64 trauma
He was in middle school
His Nintendo 64 his most important possession
His game stopped, so he tried blowing on the cartridge
Like 40 times
Didn’t work
Got so desperate he begged God to make it work
It still didn’t
So he told God, “I hate you”
A bit later, pastor preached on blaspheming the Holy Spirit
Said saying you hate God is a way to do that
So Ari’s sittin there thinking he can never be forgiven
Doesn’t matter what he’ll say or do now; his little mistake cost him everything
Cried every night begging God to forgive him
His aunt died young
When he was about 6
He always wondered if she was in Heaven or Hell
She was in her wild 20’s phase
Pushed away from church
In his 20’s, he became agnostic
Slowly rebuilt his faith from the foundation up
Started studying Hell
Annhilist
Read 1 Cor 15:22
Started to wonder and research if everyone will be saved
Led to reading about the early church
Decided universalism is
Most moral
Logically consistent
18:38 Craig
People should read what those from Jesus time - 500 years after understood
Polycarp was taught by John, who was taught by Jesus
Questioned everything since birth
Started understanding liberty, which led to anarchy
What if he was wrong about other things?
Even Biblical ideas?
“If it’s not consistent, I’m done with it.” - Craig
How can there be 40,000 denominations?
Man did this
Maybe they should study the early church to see if they’re really right
Or maybe we just need to hold on to our current understandings more loosely
Be open to learning and changing
If God is infinite, maybe it does take that many denominations to show different parts of Him
“We're all on a journey trying to understand this the best that we can. And I'm never gonna be a hundred percent right.” - Abby
We’re gonna keep learning for all eternity
Jesus was a questioner
People would get stumped because they came in to fight, not to understand
22:48ish The Western church is a lot like an empire
Don’t question
If you do, you’re out
“Jesus was not killed by atheism and anarchy. He was brought down by law and order allied with religion – which is always a deadly mix. Beware those who claim to know the mind of God and are prepared to use force, if necessary, to make others conform. Beware those who cannot tell God’s will – from their own.” ~ Barbara Brown Taylor
When the church came to power under Constantine
We served Caesar
Dictatorship
The Western church is more like imperialism than Jesus
We’ve settled for Caesar too
Psychological similarities
With those who buck this idea of universalism
Addiction to power
COVID vaccine
“Do this, or else”
You can’t go shopping
You can’t go to Heaven
Question, and you’re just a conspiracy theorist
You’re not smart enough
Trust the experts
Belittling
Augustine
Someone asked him what God was doing before creation
“Creating Hell for people like you who ask stupid questions”
Smart question; had to be belittled to coerce everyone to stick with Augustine as the authority
Pastors Say
“That’s just how it is”
“That’s what the Bible says, so it’s ok”
26:28 If Jesus said He’s going to save all people, why question whether He means everyone?
Everyone asks, “What about Hitler?”
Just reaffirms idea that some people are more deserving of Heaven than others
But their theology says everyone is equally deserving of Hell
Everyone is also equally saveable
If God intends to save everyone, He will
He has the power
He has the intention
People use this verse passionately and frequently
But ignore “because of Adam, all die; but all are made alive in Christ.”
Proves where your focus is
The power of sin
Everyone is in sin vs all are alive
Lack of faith that God can deliver us all from it
“People believe all sins can be forgiven except a misunderstanding.” - Abby
You can rape and murder
As long as you say sorry to Jesus
But you can’t be born Muslim or Hindu
And follow your religion for your whole life
God is going to restore creation to its original intent
Except this little pocket called Hell
It doesn’t make sense for sin to be eternal
It doesn’t make sense to restore creation to perfection
But have most people – His children – be out of reach
“Why would he restore the entire universe except not allow people who didn't have the correct understanding while they were on earth to come into a right relationship with him?” - Abby
If God is infinitely merciful, why would He not save everyone?
We each have infinite chances
With sufficient knowledge of God, of course everyone will turn
33:53 Death is not finite
“Who says God can't still work on your heart after you've left this earth?” - Abby
Jesus conquered death
Yet most people still believe death is final
That there’s no coming back from there; it’s your last chance
And once you cross that threshold, you’re out of God’s reach
34:41 Free will
People hold to
Love doesn’t force you to do anything
That’s why there has to be a Hell
Because we need freedom to choose one or the other
But God isn’t forcing people to accept Him after death
He is simply providing more information
Removing the bondage of sin
And taking off layers of blinders
If it takes someone 3,000 years to choose Him, that’s their choice
Though, we’ll be living outside time
But everyone will accept Him in the end
36:18 More on death
Death is a part of life
It doesn’t last forever
People attempting suicide (successful and not)
Seen Christ in each of them
Lost for a time, but not forever
Death, where is your victory?
“I'm not gonna feel the pain of this forever. I'm gonna be reunited with the people that I love, regardless of if they had it all figured out here or not.” - Scott ?
37:31 Scriptures for the skeptics
Eternal damnation doesn’t make any sense, when you read Jesus’ words
Burning Up song
If non-believers get time to come to Jesus after they die, do Christians get time to learn more and improve too?
Cuz we’ve all got stuff to work on
What happens when Christians die?
What if they screwed up right before they died?
Where do souls go after death before the new Earth?
Perhaps we should leave it a mystery
Some people have died and been revived
Listen to them
But the Bible doesn’t explain the process
Refining fire
Absent from the body; present with the Lord (2 Cor 5:8)
But I’m present with Him now
He is omnipresent
Matter is eternal
It’s just been reshaped over and over again
Energy never dies
Changes form
It would make sense that a similar pattern is happening beyond this earth
“Jesus loves us regardless. Don't tell a Christian that because it's gonna upset him.” - unknown
There’s no hellfire in that message
Show me where Jesus says if you make a misstep, you’re gonna burn in Hell for eternity
He didn’t try to scare people into loving Him
If Christ is a reflection of the Father
What about Old Testament slaughterings?
Stop focusing on words from the Bible
Putting the Bible over Christ is idolatry
“I don't need to read the Bible. I need to read who Christ is.” - Scott
Words are all we have to describe God
If we succeed, He is too small
He sent His son to show us
Jesus
Not politician
Not a renowned carpenter or mason
He was a nobody
Calling Him the Son of God was an insult to Caesar
That was Caesar’s title
It was given to a Jewish rabbi who was not popular among His own people
He was seen as a heretic
They wanted to throw Him off a cliff
He spoke against their nationalism idol
The Kingdom of Heaven is for all people
Not just Israel
When you’re oppressed, you want your oppressor to be annihilated
But God loves Rome
Just as much as Israel
Fightin words
What if we said God loves the Taliban and wants the war to end?
The Jews believed that they were the chosen people, and the Messiah was coming just for them
Jesus said everyone was equal in the Kingdom
The Message is for the entire world
48:40 Christianity’s power
Not a minority
Not oppressed
Still want to be tribalistic and put others out
Want our enemies to suffer in Hell
The people with the true problem are often supposedly believers
Sheep and goats
49:45 Post-death purification
We want to think, “This life is hard. As soon as I die, I’ll go to Heaven and be happy.”
But we must be salted with fire
Scary thought
But God is good and loving
It will be beneficial
It’s all for our restoration and healing
It’s a mystery
But we know who God is
We don’t have to be scared of it
Even if it’s hard
He is Love
51:46 Quoting Scripture
“I really do believe that Paul believed that there would be some who would be eternally annihilated, but I also believe that Paul obviously believed that ultimately, everybody would be saved.” - Ari
The problem is, you show someone one verse
They show you another that proves the opposite point
The Bible is inconsistent
Paul said meat sacrificed to idols was ok
John said no
John said you need Jesus and the Law
Paul said no Law
The Bible gives inconsistent eschatology
It points to different authors’ beliefs
Not necessarily what Jesus said
Paul vacillated between some being annihilated and all being saved
How can you argue when both views are in the Bible?
There’s obviously human error
So we just have to take it and decide what’s most moral and logical
People will say Scripture cannot really mean one thing because it says the opposite somewhere else
Cannot try to reconcile them
Just accept that it’s different viewpoints
Focus on the main points
If you find something immoral or inconsistent, reject it
God commanding slaughter in the Old Testament
Not moral
Jesus didn’t do that
Paul believed like a good Jew that some would be annihilated
But then he wrestled with the truth
God is gonna save all people
Had a revelation
A lot of Jews struggled to accept Jesus because they didn’t expect the Messiah to die and resurrect like Christ did
Why is it hard to accept that Paul may have changed what he understood to be true?
Other contradiction
Jacob I loved; Esau I hated
Vs God shows no partiality
In Romans, Paul is arguing one side of a case
And then the other side
He’s of split mind trying to make peace
1:00:22 Repent
That word is preached to mean turn 180° from your sin
But it means rethink; change
Paul started with black and white; good and evil
Christ calls us to think outside that paradigm
Could say that this is Hell and we are currently being purified
And once we get to be with Christ, it’ll be done
But Jesus says His Kingdom is here
We can see His glory here, in this life
1:01:54 Jesus is a peacemaker
Parables of lost things
Lost, found, party
Sons
One squandered his wealth
The other stayed home, but never really knew his father
The father makes peace with each of them
We can’t cast aside our pious brothers with different convictions
They can’t hate those of us who have strayed
His love never changes for either one
The Prodigal God by Tim Keller
“I need to love these people who are telling me I’m going to Hell.” - Scott
In Scripture, when Jesus gets mad at Pharisees
Maybe He’s full of compassion
The word we translate “Fool” or “Hypocrite” could mean “Actor”
Human authority isn’t real
It’s just actors dressed up in costumes and playing a part
We are all children of God
Creation is longing for us to realize we’re sons and daughters of the Most High
No need to fight
1:04:41 Is the Bible meaningless, then?
No
It has deep meaning
The above explanation of the prodigal son revealed new insights
Every time Abby hears that story, she learns something new
That’s why it has survived empires and centuries
It’s not just a how-to guide on getting on God’s good or bad side
The stories
Tell us about ourselves as humans
Give us something to think about
Let us contemplate our relationship with God
Everyone is searching and discovering
Coming to different conclusions
Let’s embrace everyone’s journey as equals
“Loving God with all of your mind is to relentlessly keep questioning and keep trying to figure it out and not be stuck in a spot where you're unwilling to change your mind.” - Craig
The human capacity to get things wrong is endless
People imagine God guiding the authors’ pens as they wrote Scripture
Reality is, people were involved
People mess up
1:07:54 Biblical cases against universalism
Conditional immortality
There are contradictions in Scripture about eschatology
Hold these tensions as humbly as we can
And not presume that everyone will or won’t be saved
Best argument against it
Best argument against Hell
If God permits some to be eternally lost, then He is evil
Even if He permits them to damn themselves
He cannot possibly be purely loving and just
Humans do not exist in a vacuum
We’re shaped by those around us
If one damns itself, others around it might make different choices and end up damned
Could lead to the collapse of humanity
In the same way, everybody must be saved for anybody to be
Libertarian freedom is stupid
If God would give us sufficient evidence to see that He is everything we need, everyone would choose Him
Annihilationism fails
Even though it’s in Scripture
The Bible is clear on Hell
Contradictions
More clearly supports universalism
Starting with Abraham being a blessing to all nations (Gen 22:18)
Allegory and truths
God is love
Read this into other Scriptures
Definition of eternal life
Knowing God
Depart from Me; I never knew you
You didn’t know My true character
Even Paul sometimes did something with the wrong mindset
Big trouble for casting out a demon out of annoyance
We are loved regardless of our good works
Doing good for the sake of doing good
Heaven and Hell is often about
A reward
Avoidance of a punishment
Fear-based
God did not give us a spirit of fear
We should be following God for the benefit of our neighbors as well as ourselves
Harmony is loving ourselves and others equally
What’s the point of Jesus dying on the cross if everyone gets in?
The Gospel isn’t our ticket into Heaven
It’s that the Kingdom is here
God is love, but He is also just
What is justice?
People think of it as prison and death
God’s justice is restorative
Healing what is lost
Bringing us into a right relationship with Him
“Justice isn't somebody stealing something and getting their hand cut off; justice is that item being returned.” - Abby
When Hitler is restored, he will love those he harmed
And they’ll be restored to be able to love him also
Restoration doesn’t seem possible based on our experiences
But God is moving
Live your values until people start asking questions
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