About this Episode
Derek Kreider, host of pacifist podcast “The Fourth Way,” joins Craig for a discussion on his latest season about propaganda. What is propaganda? Who propagandizes? And what benefits do they receive from doing so? From personal relationships, church institutions and the state, propaganda plays a part in how people organise themselves and Derek and Craig discuss them all.
The conversation starts with institutionalised abuse within the Southern Baptist Convention and how poorly churches deal with allegations of sexual abuse. Every year allegations of sexual misconduct are the church’s biggest problem. Even higher-ups who are not abusers are incentivized to cover up for underlings abusing their authority to keep the money flowing. We also learn that propaganda is not just what is communicated, but also includes leaving out important information, in this case to avoid “tarnishing God’s reputation” or other reasonable-sounding excuses.
Next, they discuss state propaganda. The state is basically an abuser who feels the need to control through the usual methods: charisma, controlling the flow of information and if these things fail then resorting to violence. Finally, Craig gets vulnerable about his abusive second marriage, the isolation and altercations, ending the episode with a note of hope for those who believe they are stuck in a situation of domestic violence: it is possible to escape.
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Episode Timestamps:
3:08 - Who is Derek Kreider?
Raised conservative with Christian education
Likes apologetics
Currently in Romania as a missionary
4:22 – What is causing the rise in atheism?
Institutionalising religion ruins it
There’s a lot of people leaving the church in America, but it’s the institutions they are leaving
Church could also be people gathered in Jesus’ name
9:19 – The Fourth Way Podcast
2016 and the election of Donald Trump made Derek want to start a podcast
The ends don’t justify the means, but the evangelical community tried to justify Trump’s actions
Consequentialism
Watched a video on pacifism
Pacifism works better than grasping for power in the political realm
Made the podcast to explore his own Christian reasoning
The name comes from Walter Wink’s “The Third Way” but Pacifism is a fourth way, not fight, flight or freeze, but being active in pacifism
Families who allow their loved ones killers live on death row rather than have them killed have changed those people
Pacifism requires a whole lot more creativity to solve problems
It brings the humanity back to the killer
There is nothing in the writings of the early church that indicate they were not pacifists
20:06 – What’s happening with the Southern Baptists?
Recently it has come to light that some of their prominent leaders have abused people and other leaders have covered it up
Then asked others to be silent about it
Famous for coming forward after being abused by a doctor
Talks about how terrible the church was at dealing with that
Became an advocate for abuse within the Southern Baptist Church
Although it’s not specific to the Southern Baptist Church
Sexual allegations are the biggest problems for church every year
When people take advantage of their positions of authority it doesn’t look like Jesus
There should not be flawed human beings being given power in the church
Individuals must take personal responsibility for their actions
A lot of times power ends up corrupting people
The Southern Baptist Convention also had leadership that covered up abuse
In order to keep their own power
So they don’t loose funding or control
Do it in the name of Jesus – don’t want Him to look bad
This is simple consequentialism
After studying conspiracies for a year Derek thinks lots of people can hide a conspiracy
This is not a uniquely church thing, people are corrupt
A new structure would be full of people doing the same thing
Maybe people are pulling back from the church because it looks just like government politics
Sometimes members of churches solely blame individuals for problems that may be systemic
Pastors are celebrities not shepherds, leading to people abusing power
35:09 – Propaganda, the state and abusers
Politicians are going to go wherever the funding comes from
This is a structural problem
Propaganda is 100% intentional
But its often done by people who are sincere about their cause
A jerk on a power trip is easier to disbelieve
Everyone propagandises
Derek educates his kids therefore by some definitions he propagandises them
We use the word for education that we don’t like
In the Southern Baptists the higher-ups silence the news media that’s also propaganda
Because it shapes your understanding
The higher-ups say they prefer to highlight the good and leave out the bad
It’s propaganda to leave information out
Its an intricate web of self-justification and gaslighting
Trump was worse on the second amendment than Obama
Jacques Ellul – Propaganda and The Technological Society
Propaganda produces extreme polarization
And other quotes that could have been written yesterday
Propaganda seeks to isolate individuals
Repeats simple content
Creates a problem to resolve then offers itself as a saviour
Abusers do the same thing
Craig’s second marriage was abusive like this
Derek’s episode about marital abuse: Propaganda and Domestic Abusers
You can escape an abusive relationship and God won’t be offended
Things escalate when the abuser feels like they are out of control
Craig’s second wife threw knives and had him arrested
Then moved in next door when he left
Its different in every situation
Talks about how the state functions
The state is basically an abuser who needs control
Violence is risky but effective if you are stronger
Information can also be used to control
Charisma can be used to control others, this is the most effective
States work like this too, when charisma (stories) stops working then they try manipulation then violence
Abusers isolate their victims
1:00:21 – The conspiracy of corporatism
How do we discern truth and how are beliefs formed?
How was propaganda implemented?
A 70 episode series on propaganda could have been much larger
Corporations and businesses propaganda
How do they do it?
What effect does it have?
What should you look out for?
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