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63. Universal Salvation with Abby Cleckner, Aree Spivey & Scott Goldman

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About this Episode

Three brilliant minds join us on this episode to talk about what made them decide Christian universalism makes the most sense compared to other theologies. They share their personal stories as well as Scriptures to explain why Hell cannot exist, everyone will be together with Jesus in the end, and what that means for our current life here on Earth. These three are Abby Cleckner, Scott Goldman, and Aree Spivey from Failed Kingdoms – the artist of our intro song. Find him on YouTube and Kindle Vella, among other platforms.

God is love. God is just. God is infinitely merciful. God is not willing that any should perish. So, why do most Christians balk at the idea that God doesn’t send people to eternal punishment or obliterate them after death? We’ve been trained in what the correct answers are and never to question what the pastor says. But have you ever even truly thought it through for yourself?

Episode Timestamps:

00:37 Is Universalism Biblical or heretical?

  • The main reason for the question

    • Many good Early Church quotes come from universalists

      • Commonly accepted in the church today as a pejorative

        • Even though universalism is rejected

2:50 Abby’s Religious Background

  • Grew up typical protestant

    • Went to church on Sundays

      • But it never really meant anything

  • Switched to Lutheran and Methodist

    • Moved a lot, so lots of different churches

  • Church was a ritual she hated

    • Swore she’d never go as an adult

    • And never make her kids go

  • Invited to Evangelical church in high school

    • No one dressed up

    • There were no hymnals

    • They played guitars

    • And it was more about relationship with God than ritual

    • About learning, studying, growing

      • But then in studying, came to stories like God commanding [Saul] to kill every man, woman, and child

        • Shocked that God would command him to kill babies

        • More and more stories like that that didn’t sit right built up

        • Didn’t align with who she knew God to be

        • “Study and ask questions, but not those kinds of questions.” - leaders Abby talked to at church

          • You’re just supposed to accept it and move on

  • Listened to podcasts

    • Learned about church history

    • The rich diversity of beliefs

    • Christian universalism

      • What majority of early Christians believed

  • Hell

    • “If you take the idea of Hell really seriously, you can never have peace.” - Abby

      • In relationships

        • Felt so guilty

        • Felt a responsibility to save all their souls

          • Hurry, in case they die today

    • “Jesus left paradise to come down and serve the suffering. And so how could He just let people suffer in Hell?” - Abby

    • “...people, I love, if they were in Hell, what would I do to get them out? How much more would God do that for them?” - Abby

7:23 Scott’s Religious Background

  • Raised Pentecostcal

  • Then Foursquare

  • Hell was a big thing 

    • His churches were big on fire and brimstone

    • Got married

      • Then really came to God

      • Had to accept that his wife was headed to Hell

        • When she got saved, it was such a relief

    • Driving around with friends, sharing the love of Jesus

      • One said he wasn’t interested and asked what would happen

        • Well… you could kind of go to Hell

          • “That sounds like a threat”

        • Something in the air wasn’t right

    • Scared for his children’s souls

      • Especially when his oldest became a rebellious teen

      • You hope they get into the Word

        • Become that little worship leader you want them to be

    • Learned about annhilationism

      • Seemed more Scriptural

    • 1 Timothy 4:10

      • “...our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers.”

        • This changed everything

    • Started reading Keith Giles 

    • Currently listening to Graces Saves All by David Artman

      • Outlines why everything in the Bible points to universal salvation

    • Would sit in church and worry that those who didn’t go to the altar and repent would die, unsaved, in a car crash on the way home

    • Fear is not a great motivator for Scott;

      • Grace always is

    • And Jesus didn’t go around threatening people

      • He gave them grace

    • Grace doesn’t mean we do what we want

      • It motivates us to do better

    • Fear might motivate some people

      • But it’s not something Jesus ever used

  • Inerrancy 

    • Puts more stock in Gospels than Epistles

      • Many believe the entire Bible is God’s Word

      • Jesus is the Word

      • The Gospels are about Jesus

        • Some were written by people who were with him every day

12:42 Ari’s Religious Background

  • Grew up in black charismatic churches

    • Preached lots of hellfire

  • N-64 trauma

    • He was in middle school

    • His Nintendo 64 his most important possession

    • His game stopped, so he tried blowing on the cartridge

      • Like 40 times

      • Didn’t work

    • Got so desperate he begged God to make it work

      • It still didn’t

    • So he told God, “I hate you”

    • A bit later, pastor preached on blaspheming the Holy Spirit

      • Said saying you hate God is a way to do that

      • So Ari’s sittin there thinking he can never be forgiven

        • Doesn’t matter what he’ll say or do now; his little mistake cost him everything

        • Cried every night begging God to forgive him

  • His aunt died young

    • When he was about 6

    • He always wondered if she was in Heaven or Hell

    • She was in her wild 20’s phase

      • Pushed away from church

  • In his 20’s, he became agnostic

  • Slowly rebuilt his faith from the foundation up

    • Started studying Hell

    • Decided universalism is

      • Most moral

      • Logically consistent

18:38 Craig

  • People should read what those from Jesus time - 500 years after understood

    • Polycarp was taught by John, who was taught by Jesus

  • Questioned everything since birth

  • Started understanding liberty, which led to anarchy

    • What if he was wrong about other things?

      • Even Biblical ideas?

  • “If it’s not consistent, I’m done with it.” - Craig

    • How can there be 40,000 denominations?

      • Man did this

        • Maybe they should study the early church to see if they’re really right

          • Or maybe we just need to hold on to our current understandings more loosely

          • Be open to learning and changing

          • If God is infinite, maybe it does take that many denominations to show different parts of Him

          • “We're all on a journey trying to understand this the best that we can. And I'm never gonna be a hundred percent right.” - Abby

          • We’re gonna keep learning for all eternity

  • Jesus was a questioner

    • People would get stumped because they came in to fight, not to understand

22:48ish The Western church is a lot like an empire

  • Don’t question 

    • If you do, you’re out

  • “Jesus was not killed by atheism and anarchy. He was brought down by law and order allied with religion – which is always a deadly mix. Beware those who claim to know the mind of God and are prepared to use force, if necessary, to make others conform. Beware those who cannot tell God’s will – from their own.” ~ Barbara Brown Taylor

  • When the church came to power under Constantine

    • We served Caesar

    • Dictatorship

  • The Western church is more like imperialism than Jesus

    • We’ve settled for Caesar too

    • Psychological similarities

      • With those who buck this idea of universalism

      • Addiction to power

      • COVID vaccine

        • “Do this, or else”

          • You can’t go shopping

          • You can’t go to Heaven

        • Question, and you’re just a conspiracy theorist

        • You’re not smart enough

          • Trust the experts

          • Belittling

      • Augustine

        • Someone asked him what God was doing before creation

          • “Creating Hell for people like you who ask stupid questions”

          • Smart question; had to be belittled to coerce everyone to stick with Augustine as the authority

      • Pastors Say 

        • “That’s just how it is”

        • “That’s what the Bible says, so it’s ok”

26:28 If Jesus said He’s going to save all people, why question whether He means everyone?

  • Everyone asks, “What about Hitler?”

    • Just reaffirms idea that some people are more deserving of Heaven than others

      • But their theology says everyone is equally deserving of Hell

      • Everyone is also equally saveable

  • If God intends to save everyone, He will

    • He has the power

    • He has the intention

  • Romans 3:23

    • People use this verse passionately and frequently

      • But ignore “because of Adam, all die; but all are made alive in Christ.”

    • Proves where your focus is

      • The power of sin

      • Everyone is in sin vs all are alive

      • Lack of faith that God can deliver us all from it

  • “People believe all sins can be forgiven except a misunderstanding.” - Abby

    • You can rape and murder

      • As long as you say sorry to Jesus

    • But you can’t be born Muslim or Hindu

      • And follow your religion for your whole life

  • God is going to restore creation to its original intent

    • Except this little pocket called Hell

    • It doesn’t make sense for sin to be eternal

    • It doesn’t make sense to restore creation to perfection

      • But have most people – His children – be out of reach

      • “Why would he restore the entire universe except not allow people who didn't have the correct understanding while they were on earth to come into a right relationship with him?” - Abby

    • If God is infinitely merciful, why would He not save everyone?

    • We each have infinite chances

      • With sufficient knowledge of God, of course everyone will turn

33:53 Death is not finite

“Who says God can't still work on your heart after you've left this earth?” - Abby

  • Jesus conquered death

    • Yet most people still believe death is final

      • That there’s no coming back from there; it’s your last chance

      • And once you cross that threshold, you’re out of God’s reach

34:41 Free will

  • People hold to 

    • Love doesn’t force you to do anything

      • That’s why there has to be a Hell

        • Because we need freedom to choose one or the other

  • But God isn’t forcing people to accept Him after death

    • He is simply providing more information

    • Removing the bondage of sin

    • And taking off layers of blinders

    • If it takes someone 3,000 years to choose Him, that’s their choice

      • Though, we’ll be living outside time

    • But everyone will accept Him in the end

36:18 More on death

  • Death is a part of life

  • It doesn’t last forever

  • People attempting suicide (successful and not)

    • Seen Christ in each of them

    • Lost for a time, but not forever

  • Death, where is your victory?

  • “I'm not gonna feel the pain of this forever. I'm gonna be reunited with the people that I love, regardless of if they had it all figured out here or not.” - Scott ?

37:31 Scriptures for the skeptics

  • Eternal damnation doesn’t make any sense, when you read Jesus’ words

  • Burning Up song

  • If non-believers get time to come to Jesus after they die, do Christians get time to learn more and improve too?

    • Cuz we’ve all got stuff to work on

    • What happens when Christians die?

      • What if they screwed up right before they died?

  • Where do souls go after death before the new Earth?

    • Perhaps we should leave it a mystery

    • Some people have died and been revived

      • Listen to them

    • But the Bible doesn’t explain the process

      • Refining fire

      • Absent from the body; present with the Lord (2 Cor 5:8)

        • But I’m present with Him now 

          • He is omnipresent

      • Matter is eternal

        • It’s just been reshaped over and over again

        • Energy never dies

        • Changes form

        • It would make sense that a similar pattern is happening beyond this earth

      • “Jesus loves us regardless. Don't tell a Christian that because it's gonna upset him.” - unknown

        • There’s no hellfire in that message

  • Show me where Jesus says if you make a misstep, you’re gonna burn in Hell for eternity

    • He didn’t try to scare people into loving Him

  • Hebrews 1:3

    • If Christ is a reflection of the Father

      • What about Old Testament slaughterings?

    • Stop focusing on words from the Bible

      • Putting the Bible over Christ is idolatry

    • “I don't need to read the Bible. I need to read who Christ is.” - Scott

    • Words are all we have to describe God

      • If we succeed, He is too small

      • He sent His son to show us

  • Jesus

    • Not politician

    • Not a renowned carpenter or mason

    • He was a nobody

      • Calling Him the Son of God was an insult to Caesar

        • That was Caesar’s title

      • It was given to a Jewish rabbi who was not popular among His own people

        • He was seen as a heretic

        • They wanted to throw Him off a cliff

        • The Kingdom of Heaven is for all people

          • Not just Israel

        • When you’re oppressed, you want your oppressor to be annihilated

        • But God loves Rome

        • Just as much as Israel

          • Fightin words

        • What if we said God loves the Taliban and wants the war to end?

        • The Jews believed that they were the chosen people, and the Messiah was coming just for them

          • Jesus said everyone was equal in the Kingdom

          • The Message is for the entire world

48:40 Christianity’s power

  • Not a minority

  • Not oppressed

  • Still want to be tribalistic and put others out

    • Want our enemies to suffer in Hell

  • The people with the true problem are often supposedly believers

    • Sheep and goats

49:45 Post-death purification

  • We want to think, “This life is hard. As soon as I die, I’ll go to Heaven and be happy.”

  • But we must be salted with fire

    • Scary thought

    • But God is good and loving

      • It will be beneficial

      • It’s all for our restoration and healing

    • It’s a mystery

      • But we know who God is

      • We don’t have to be scared of it

        • Even if it’s hard

    • He is Love

51:46 Quoting Scripture

  • “I really do believe that Paul believed that there would be some who would be eternally annihilated, but I also believe that Paul obviously believed that ultimately, everybody would be saved.” - Ari

  • The problem is, you show someone one verse

    • They show you another that proves the opposite point

    • The Bible is inconsistent

  • Paul said meat sacrificed to idols was ok

    • John said no

  • John said you need Jesus and the Law

    • Paul said no Law

  • The Bible gives inconsistent eschatology

    • It points to different authors’ beliefs

      • Not necessarily what Jesus said

  • Paul vacillated between some being annihilated and all being saved

    • How can you argue when both views are in the Bible?

  • There’s obviously human error

    • So we just have to take it and decide what’s most moral and logical

  • People will say Scripture cannot really mean one thing because it says the opposite somewhere else

    • Cannot try to reconcile them

    • Just accept that it’s different viewpoints

    • Focus on the main points

  • If you find something immoral or inconsistent, reject it

    • God commanding slaughter in the Old Testament

      • Not moral

      • Jesus didn’t do that

  • Paul believed like a good Jew that some would be annihilated

    • But then he wrestled with the truth

      • God is gonna save all people

      • Had a revelation

    • A lot of Jews struggled to accept Jesus because they didn’t expect the Messiah to die and resurrect like Christ did

      • Why is it hard to accept that Paul may have changed what he understood to be true?

  • Other contradiction

    • Jacob I loved; Esau I hated

    • Vs God shows no partiality

  • In Romans, Paul is arguing one side of a case

    • And then the other side

    • He’s of split mind trying to make peace

1:00:22 Repent

  • That word is preached to mean turn 180° from your sin

  • But it means rethink; change

  • Paul started with black and white; good and evil 

    • Christ calls us to think outside that paradigm

  • Could say that this is Hell and we are currently being purified

    • And once we get to be with Christ, it’ll be done

    • But Jesus says His Kingdom is here

    • We can see His glory here, in this life

1:01:54 Jesus is a peacemaker

  • Parables of lost things

  • Lost, found, party

  • Sons

    • One squandered his wealth

    • The other stayed home, but never really knew his father

    • The father makes peace with each of them

      • We can’t cast aside our pious brothers with different convictions

      • They can’t hate those of us who have strayed

    • His love never changes for either one

    • The Prodigal God by Tim Keller

  • “I need to love these people who are telling me I’m going to Hell.” - Scott

  • In Scripture, when Jesus gets mad at Pharisees

    • Maybe He’s full of compassion

    • The word we translate “Fool” or “Hypocrite” could mean “Actor”

      • Human authority isn’t real

        • It’s just actors dressed up in costumes and playing a part

  • We are all children of God

    • Creation is longing for us to realize we’re sons and daughters of the Most High

1:04:41 Is the Bible meaningless, then?

  • No

  • It has deep meaning

  • The above explanation of the prodigal son revealed new insights

    • Every time Abby hears that story, she learns something new

  • That’s why it has survived empires and centuries

    • It’s not just a how-to guide on getting on God’s good or bad side

    • The stories 

      • Tell us about ourselves as humans

      • Give us something to think about

      • Let us contemplate our relationship with God

  • Everyone is searching and discovering

    • Coming to different conclusions

      • Let’s embrace everyone’s journey as equals

  • “Loving God with all of your mind is to relentlessly keep questioning and keep trying to figure it out and not be stuck in a spot where you're unwilling to change your mind.” - Craig

  • The human capacity to get things wrong is endless

    • People imagine God guiding the authors’ pens as they wrote Scripture

    • Reality is, people were involved

      • People mess up

1:07:54 Biblical cases against universalism

  • Conditional immortality

    • Dare We Hope?

      • There are contradictions in Scripture about eschatology

      • Hold these tensions as humbly as we can

        • And not presume that everyone will or won’t be saved

    • Best argument against it

      • That All Shall Be Saved

        • Best argument against Hell

        • If God permits some to be eternally lost, then He is evil

          • Even if He permits them to damn themselves

          • He cannot possibly be purely loving and just

        • Humans do not exist in a vacuum

          • We’re shaped by those around us

          • If one damns itself, others around it might make different choices and end up damned

          • Could lead to the collapse of humanity

            • In the same way, everybody must be saved for anybody to be

    • Libertarian freedom is stupid

    • If God would give us sufficient evidence to see that He is everything we need, everyone would choose Him

      • Annihilationism fails

        • Even though it’s in Scripture

  • The Bible is clear on Hell

    • Contradictions

    • More clearly supports universalism

      • Starting with Abraham being a blessing to all nations (Gen 22:18)

  • Allegory and truths

    • God is love

      • Read this into other Scriptures

    • Definition of eternal life

      • John 17:3

      • Knowing God

        • Depart from Me; I never knew you

          • You didn’t know My true character

        • Even Paul sometimes did something with the wrong mindset

          • Big trouble for casting out a demon out of annoyance

    • We are loved regardless of our good works

    • Doing good for the sake of doing good

    • Heaven and Hell is often about

      • A reward

      • Avoidance of a punishment

        • Fear-based

        • God did not give us a spirit of fear

      • We should be following God for the benefit of our neighbors as well as ourselves

    • Harmony is loving ourselves and others equally

  • What’s the point of Jesus dying on the cross if everyone gets in?

    • The Gospel isn’t our ticket into Heaven

      • It’s that the Kingdom is here

  • God is love, but He is also just

    • What is justice?

      • People think of it as prison and death

      • God’s justice is restorative

      • Healing what is lost

        • Bringing us into a right relationship with Him

      • “Justice isn't somebody stealing something and getting their hand cut off; justice is that item being returned.” - Abby

      • When Hitler is restored, he will love those he harmed

        • And they’ll be restored to be able to love him also

    • Restoration doesn’t seem possible based on our experiences

      • But God is moving

  • Live your values until people start asking questions


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