Children

169. The State vs. the Midwife: Obeying God, Defying Caesar with Brenda "Granny" Smith

The letter said cease and desist.

Brenda Smith got upset for about five minutes. Then she got angry. Then she did something that tells you a lot about the rest of this story:

She wadded it up and threw it in the trash.

Brenda, “Granny” to plenty of people who are not technically her grandchildren, has spent more than 30 years attending births. She believes that work is something God called her to do.

So when the State of Arkansas told her to stop, the question in her mind was not simply whether she might get in trouble.

It was much bigger:

Who gets the final word when the government tells you to stop doing something you believe God told you to do?

That question carries this conversation from home birth and midwifery into Christian anarchy, consent, fear, obedience, and ultimately hope. Because Brenda has seen enough of the state to distrust it. She has also seen enough of God to refuse to fear it.

Before Politics, There Were Babies

Brenda’s story begins far from political theory.

She grew up on a farm where faith was woven into everyday life. Her mother gathered five children around for family devotions. Brenda ran barefoot outside, watched life happen all around her, and learned early not to be afraid of everything that might go wrong.

Birth became personal before it became a calling.

Her first son was born breech in a hospital. Brenda remembers the doctor arriving too late for a C-section and a room filling with people who wanted to witness a vaginal breech birth they had rarely seen.

Years later, a neighbor from the Netherlands asked Brenda to attend her home birth. Brenda went.

Something clicked.

Over time, attending births became more than an interest. It became part of how Brenda understood service.

She does not argue that everybody should make the same birth choices. Early in the episode, she tells parents to learn, ask questions, interview caregivers, understand their own values, and make informed decisions.

Her point is not that she should choose for a mother. It is almost the opposite. The mother should be allowed to choose, but to do they need to know all their options. Including those that don't center on hospitals.

When “You Can’t” Meets “I’m Called”

Years into Brenda’s work, a friend called her crying.

According to Brenda, rules surrounding her friend’s pregnancy meant the midwife she had expected to use could no longer attend her home birth. Brenda believed her friend needed someone beside her.

So she stepped in.

She did not charge her.

Later came questions from the state. Years after that, Brenda received the cease-and-desist letter telling her to stop attending births.

“I’m gonna do what the Lord calls me to do.” — Brenda Smith (15:30–16:00)

That sounds bold if we put it on a T-shirt. But it sounds different when the next envelope might contain something that can put you in jail.

Brenda kept attending births.

Eventually, after a stillbirth, she says Arkansas authorities pursued a case against her even though the parents did not blame her. She learned there was a warrant for her arrest through someone who saw her posted online.

Then came the discovery process. Brenda says the government had collected years of screenshots from her Facebook activity.

“They had eight years of Facebook screenshots on me.” — Brenda Smith (17:15–18:00)

According to Brenda, the case was eventually dismissed.

But “dismissed” does not give back the year she spent wondering what might happen. It does not give back the sleep, and it does not answer the larger question: what happens when two adults voluntarily agree to something the state says they are not allowed to do?

The Birth She Refused to Miss

One of the wildest stories in the episode begins with flashing lights behind Brenda’s car. A mother was already pushing.

Brenda didn't stop driving.

She reached the house, jumped out, told the officer she was a midwife, and started toward the door.

The officer caught her.

Brenda describes being bent over with her arm behind her back while the mother inside was trying to have a baby. Outside the state wanted compliance.

A woman is in labor. The midwife had somewhere to be. The officer did not know what a midwife was.

Brenda eventually makes it inside, leaving her ID and registration for the officer to find himself. The officer followed, asking to speak to her, now by the name on on ID. Then the mother roars through another contraction. The woman's mother tells him: that's not happening right now.

Birth wins the argument.

Brenda ends up in court months later over the traffic stop, but the real question is already sitting there in the delivery room. 

What is the law for? Is it meant to protect people? And what happens when enforcing it gets in the way of people voluntarily caring for one another?

Consent Changes the Meaning of Anarchy

Brenda did not grow up calling herself an anarchist.

She says she did not even realize the word described her until around 2012, when a friend explained it differently than she had heard before.

Not riots. Not burning cars. Not chaos.

Consent and non-aggression.

“If somebody doesn’t want to do something, you don’t get to make them do it.” — Brenda Smith (38:40)

Suddenly, pieces of her life started fitting together. Midwifery was built around the choices of mothers. Her faith was built around voluntary obedience to God. And her growing distrust of government came from watching institutions use force where she believed persuasion, relationship, and consent should have been enough. She did not become a Christian anarchist and then decide how to apply the philosophy to birth. She looked backward and realized she had already been living many of its principles.

What Does Faith Cost?

Brenda imagines a situation where staying out of jail requires disobeying what she believes God told her to do.

What kind of faith would that be?

“If your faith doesn’t require something difficult of you, why are you even doing it?” — Brenda Smith (40:15)

That does not mean every act of civil disobedience is holy. It does not mean our personal desires automatically become commands from God. It means Christians have to wrestle seriously with allegiance.

Craig connects Brenda’s story with Acts 5, where Peter and the apostles answer earthly rulers with a dangerous sentence:

“We must obey God rather than human beings.”

That verse is easy to admire when we imagine ancient Rome. It gets harder when obedience costs money, reputation, comfort, or freedom.

Brenda asks it even more plainly:

“Who is your master?” — Brenda Smith (41:15)

That question belongs far beyond midwifery.

We Don’t Need a Perpetual Parent

Brenda was an obedient child. Very obedient. She remembers talking back to her mother once and being more shaken by the disappointment on her mother’s face than by the punishment.

That story leads somewhere unexpected. Children need parents. They need guidance, protection, correction, and people who know more than they do.

But children grow up.

At some point, Brenda says, we learn who we are. We make decisions. We accept responsibility. We no longer need someone standing over us to make every choice.

Then she offers one of the episode’s best descriptions of government:

“You don’t need a perpetual parent, and that’s exactly what government is.” — Brenda Smith (47:45)

You may disagree. But the image is worth thinking about. How much of state power depends on convincing adults that somebody else always needs to be in charge of them?

And how much Christian political thinking has quietly accepted the same assumption?

Jesus did not tell His disciples to become better rulers over everyone else. He told them that rulers “lord it over” people and then said: Not so with you.

Anarchy Without Losing Jesus

Brenda has also met anarchists who think her Christianity does not belong.

“No gods, no masters” can become its own test of belonging. Her answer is simple. She is not giving up Jesus to make somebody else comfortable with her politics. And she has no desire to use force to make an unbeliever accept her faith. That is where she finds common ground even with secular anarchists.

Faith cannot be forced. Neither can love.

Craig points out that many anarchists he has met once belonged to churches and later walked away, sometimes because of "church hurt" or because the Christianity they were given looked more like authority and control than Jesus.

That should bother us. 

If someone rejects Christ because we have shown them Caesar wearing a Christian costume, what exactly did they reject?

Brenda even left a church she loved because the American flag remained in the sanctuary. She could no longer make peace with national symbols sharing sacred space. For her, the issue was allegiance. No King but Christ cannot just mean “Christ is my favorite king.” It means He does not share the throne.

When the Enemy Becomes a Person

Late in the episode, Brenda tells a story from the film Gandhi.

A man has committed a terrible act of revenge after losing his own son. Gandhi gives him a strange path forward: find a child like the one he killed, raise him as his own, and raise him in the religion of the people he had learned to hate.

Brenda hears Jesus in that story: Love your enemies.

Not tolerate them from a safe distance. Not defeat them and then feel merciful afterward. Love them until “enemy” stops being the most important thing you know about them.

That is where Christian anarchy reaches beyond government. If we reject coercion but remain full of hatred, we have not made it very far. Jesus does not simply free us from rulers. He frees us to love.

Become an Apocaloptimist

Then comes a word Craig can barely pronounce: Apocaloptimist.

Someone who knows things look like they are falling apart and still believes they will turn out okay.

Brenda laughs because the word fits. Christian anarchy can sound angry if all we talk about is corruption, laws, police, taxes, surveillance, and state power. But Brenda insists we land somewhere else: hope.

“Our heart is elsewhere. Our home is elsewhere.” — Brenda Smith (1:01:00)

That is why she says she can keep doing “forbidden” and noncompliant things without being ruled by fear. Governments can threaten. Bodies can get sick. Systems can fail. The world can look like it is coming apart. But Caesar does not get the last word. Jesus does.

Maybe that is the difference between simple rebellion and Christian anarchy. One is defined by what it refuses. The other is defined by whom it follows.

🤝Connect with Brenda “Granny” Smith🤝

Highlights & Takeaways

  • Brenda’s path to Christian anarchy grew from lived experience before she ever adopted the label

  • Consent matters because people are not property of institutions, experts, or governments

  • Calling something “legal” does not automatically answer whether it is right

  • Faith becomes real when obedience costs something

  • “Obey God rather than men” is more difficult when the consequences are personal

  • Government can function like a perpetual parent if adults surrender responsibility for their own choices

  • Christian anarchy loses its Christian center if it becomes hatred of rulers rather than love of neighbor

  • Hope keeps noncompliance from turning into despair

Listen

When Brenda moves from her arrest story into the question, “Who is your master?” Notice how quickly a discussion about midwifery becomes a discussion about allegiance.

Reflect

Where do you obey mainly because you are afraid of consequences? How would you tell the difference between faithful obedience to Christ and simply doing whatever you want?

Read

Acts 5:27–32, Mark 10:42–45, and Matthew 5:43–48. Hold them together: obedience to God, Jesus’ rejection of “lording it over” others, and enemy-love.

For a separate current story about state prosecution of home-birth midwives, PBS’s 2026 documentary Arrest the Midwife follows Amish and Mennonite families confronting similar questions about birth choice and government regulation. Watch or learn about Arrest the Midwife on PBS

Practice

Pick one area of your life where fear makes your decisions for you. Do not start by breaking a law. Start by asking what faithfulness, responsibility, consent, and love require, and whether you have handed your conscience to someone else simply because they have authority.

Episode Timestamps

(00:00) Meet Brenda “Granny” Smith

  • childhood faith and farm life

  • motherhood, grandmotherhood, and birth

  • more than three decades attending births

(06:20) Home Birth, Choice & Informed Decisions

  • hospitals, midwives, and personal fit

  • researching birth options

  • trust, prayer, and informed choice

(12:10) When Arkansas Comes for a Midwife

  • friend needing birth support

  • choosing service over licensure

  • cease-and-desist letter

(17:00) Arrest Warrant & Eight Years of Screenshots

  • stillbirth and state investigation

  • warrant discovered through a friend

  • Facebook evidence and legal costs

(22:10) Obey God Rather Than Men

  • state authority versus calling

  • Acts 5 and Christian obedience

  • regulation, power, and birth choice

(28:00) The Cop, the Midwife & the Baby Coming Now

  • refusing to stop on the way to a birth

  • police confrontation outside the house

  • courtroom aftermath

(34:10) Bringing Babies Into a Fearful World

  • children growing up after COVID

  • perpetual war as normal life

  • peaceful beginnings and hope

(38:00) Why Christian Anarchy Made Sense

  • consent and non-aggression

  • discovering the label around 2012

  • faith already pointing beyond the state

(43:30) Fear, Obedience & the Perpetual Parent

  • childhood compliance

  • authority that deserves obedience

  • government as permanent parent

(51:10) Christians Among Secular Anarchists

  • “no gods, no masters”

  • church hurt and unbelief

  • American flags inside churches

(58:40) Love Your Enemies & Apocaloptimism

  • Gandhi story and enemy-love

  • hope while systems fall apart

  • Christ beyond fear and despair

(1:03:00) Catching Freedom

  • Brenda’s Facebook page

  • birth and liberty content

  • closing invitation

Keep the Conversation Going

For more Bad Roman conversations on Christian anarchy, revisit Episode 51, Jesus the Anarchist, with Alexandre Christoyannopoulos and Nicholas Harrelson. Episode 51: Jesus the Anarchist

You can also hear Craig’s conversation with Larken Rose in Episode 83, The Cult of Statism, including their discussion of religion, voluntary relationships, and why belief in God and anarchism are not automatically at odds. Episode 83: The Cult of Statism

Support The Bad Roman Project, share the episode with somebody who will wrestle with it honestly, and keep asking the question underneath all of this:

Who is your master?


Related Episodes

Related Blog Post

57. Foster Care, Adoption & The Church - Kids of the State with Darren Freidinger and Ian Minielly

About this episode

In this episode of The Bad Roman, we look at foster care and adoption. This topic comes by request from listener Darren Freidinger, who is a foster parent himself. Since Darren asked us to do an episode on this often discussed topic, we invited him to be the guest! Beyond being a father, Darren is passionate about the church stepping in and fulfilling its role to care for orphans. He shares his experience with foster to adopt, the foster care system, and alternatives to the state-run system.

Joining Craig and Darren in this episode, is a long-time friend of the show and Bad Roman contributor, andIan Minielly. Outside of writing articles on The Bad Roman Blog, Ian is also a foster parent and has experienced the great loss of having his first foster daughter taken from him and his wife. You can read his story in his short book, Emily's Tears, and hear a synopsis on the show.

Darren and Ian share their mutual and different experiences and struggles with the system, and what they see as ways to fix it and best work with it — and Craig compares his cats to children (as normal). This episode touches on every emotion and gives a glimpse into the system that holds the fate of thousands of children who become wards of the state, through no fault of their own.

Christians are called to care for orphans and widows – those who are helpless. We can do that even without fostering any children ourselves. More than anything, these kids need something positive in their lives. They need support. And it’s our job to provide for them. The question is, how?

Episode Timestamps:

5:15 Why Darren’s a foster parent

  • His wife was passionate about it

  • Unable to have kids

  • Got licensed through Catholic Charities

    • Can sign up to do temporary foster care or to adopt

    • Can stipulate at-risk kids or not

  • Got 4 and a 6-year-old girls

    • Had them for 9 months before adopting

  • There’s a LOT of paperwork

    • Probes into the intimate details of every aspect of your life

      • They want to ensure that parents are adopting for right reasons and will provide kids stability

      • But it’s invasive

  • Getting kids older than infants is like being thrown on a treadmill that’s already on full speed

    • It’s your job to keep yourself and those kids upright and healthy

  • “It’s a whirlwind… waiting so long to be parents, you get the kid placed with you and you're waiting, and you're just chomping at the bit, but all of a sudden it happens. And you're like, ‘Oh, hey, wait a minute, time out. I wasn't ready for this kind of thing.'” - Darren

9:52 Is there a better way to do this without the state?

  • “There's always a better way than going through the state, in my opinion.” - Craig

10:38 Ian’s Story

  • Emily's Tears

  • His wife was involved in jail ministry

    • One of the pregnant women asked her to take power of attorney over her baby

      • So, they picked her up at the hospital

        • Had no formula or anything

        • Felt like kidnapping

  • His wife had wanted to do foster care for 20 years, and he was finally coming around

    • Suddenly, this opportunity fell in their lap

  • DHS called them on their long drive home

    • Nurses had called CPS because baby had been taken

    • Power of attorney gave them rights

      • But DHS recommended they register as foster parents for more rights

        • The government wanted her in the system so she would keep the industry running

        • Had to go through all the classes and invasive interviews

  • “We can’t do better as long as the government controls it from top to bottom.” -Ian

  • There’s billboards everywhere begging for foster parents

    • Because they abuse the good ones

      • They find they are not helping kids and get discouraged

17:09 Does the state want kids to get adopted?

  • Once parental rights are terminated, a case worker spends 30 days looking for/evaluating adoptive parents

  • But they fight not to terminate rights

    • The goal is always to send kids home to their bio parents

    • Sometimes, this is the best idea; sometimes, it’s the worst

      • The problem is the one-size-fits-all mentality

  • The system runs on there being kids in the system

    • Parents have classes

    • Kids have classes

    • Entire industry run off foster kids

  • Ian didn’t get licensed when they moved states

    • “I said, ‘I'm not ready to deal with the state again’… You opened up your entire life to the last people in the world that should have access to it so that you can get a child and help. And it’s painful.” - Ian

20:36 Emotions and Turmoil

  • Instant Family movie

    • Eventually, the government takes the kids back

      • Hard on the kids, the foster parents, the bio parents

      • Gotta really screw kids up

  • “The state coming in and taking kids from families is abhorrent to me. It just sets my teeth on edge to think about it.” - Darren

    • But this is the norm

23:23 How can we fix this? It is not working

  • The state pulls kids after abuse happens

    • How could we prevent the abuse?

      • Has to be a community-based intervention

      • Cannot push blanket solutions

        • Individualized help

  • If a kid’s being adopted, the state is always involved

    • It’s a legal matter

    • Nonprofits cannot handle it on their own

    • BUT

      • Organizations like Safe Families exist

        • Provide temporary support to families in crisis

          • Families take in kids for a time

        • The state is not involved

        • The only issue is that it’s church-based, and many people will not set foot in a church, so they’ll avoid reaching out for help

  • Kids don’t wind up in foster care overnight

    • It’s years of bad decisions and struggles

      • That build-up and explode

    • We have to catch them further upstream

      • Even before the child is born or even conceived

    • Generational abuse further complicates things

      • Kids have seen some stuff

      • Move from one type of dysfunction to another

        • “Some of us are a slightly better dysfunction, but we're all dysfunctional.” - Ian

    • In Michigan, almost all foster kids who graduated high school ended up in prison within 3 years

      • “It's not because those kids are failures. They've experienced trauma that they can't recover from in a simple manner.” -Ian

29:28 The Church is not being the Church

  • Love widows and orphans (James 1:27)

    • Generally, as a whole, we are ignoring them      

    • Some specific congregations are doing great work

      • Adoption/foster care ministry

        • Give information to parents and help them with paperwork

        • Support groups

        • Network

30:52 What it takes to become a foster parent [in Illinois]

  • 9-week course plus online training

  • Gives you things to think about

    • Prepares you for trauma responses from your kids

      • Even if the kid was not yet born when the trauma occurred, it affected their development

  • Support and supplies

    • When Ian picked up the baby, a church filled a room with diapers, formula, and other supplies

      • They didn’t have to buy a diaper for 6 months

      • And that was not even in the town where they lived! It was where the baby was from, several hours away

  • “If you're not capable- if you're not able to adopt or foster- you can help in other ways.” -Craig

    • It seems daunting, but a pack of diapers really makes a difference

    • More people might adopt if they knew the church would support them

    • Babysit for a couple of hours

  • “Even if the state's going to be involved with it, these kids need homes.” - Craig

  • The government vets respite providers (in some states)

    • You can’t just let someone babysit your foster kids

    • DHS must do a background check

      • Makes people not want to be involved

  • There are so many hurdles!

    • Urchins bleeding the system for money

      • Monthly court dates

        • Focused on budget, not the child’s needs

      • Once there was an opportunity to send Ian’s child to a different state so Michigan didn't have to pay any more, she was gone

      • “They're more worried about what it looks like on the books than about doing what's right for the kids.” - Darren

    • If you don’t have a respite provider approved and get caught letting them stay there, you would likely lose your kid(s)

  • So many horror stories with the same plot

    • Given a child

    • Told they could adopt

    • Had them taken away

40:00 Ian’s story continued

  • Had a baby from birth to 17 months

  • Jumped through all the hoops

  • One night, they told Ian and his wife that the baby was going to Oregon the next day

  • They appealed the decision to take her

    • Took out a loan and sold a bunch of stuff to afford the lawyer

  • Turns out, that someone wrote a bunch of lies in their file to get the girl sent away, like

    • They weren’t socializing her

    • They were withholding food

    • So, the person who made the decision to remove her could not be blamed 

  • Even though they had the same judge they’d had for 17 months who knew them, he would not overturn the decision because he had never done that, and he was about to retire

    • He acknowledged that the decision was wrong

    • And their baby is still in Oregon 

  • They lived down the street from more than one person involved, so they moved to Kentucky

49:12 Older kids

  • “The bottom line for me is there are kids that need help. If it means some discomfort for me to help kids that need help, that's okay.” - Darren

  • If you can’t take an infant, take a 10-year-old

  • Bring in 16 or 17 year-olds and just give them the normalcy of having Thanksgiving

    • Let them come back for holidays when they’ve aged out

  • Older kids are rarely adopted

  • Most foster kids get kicked out at 18 and become homeless

    • Some places have a transition program

      • Job training, rent money, other support…

    • Some states continue paying foster parents to support their kids as adults

51:54 Doing it just for the paycheck

  • People take in kids because the state gives them money to care for them

  • Right now, the state can’t even find people to take in babies

    • “If you don't have enough families to be in foster care, you're willing to take anybody. And so that's a system that's ripe for abuse.” - Darren

  • Farming foster children for money

  • Disabilities bring more cash

    • You might only get $300/month for a kid

      • But if you label them with a bunch of conditions, you get an added $75 for each problem

    • Of course, foster kids legitimately do have a lot of issues, but people take advantage of this for the money even when kids don’t need the extra support

    • Labeling them falsely

      • Changes their social status

      • Holds them back from taking more advanced classes

    • Labeling an infant

      • Brings them services

        • But many services are not useful until they’re older

        • Therapists and parents waste their time

      • Sticks them with the label forever

        • Before they’ve even shown what they’re capable of

        • Even when they show what they can do, the label stays

57:36 Final thoughts

  • Help with fostering in any way you can

    • If you don’t know anyone who’s doing it, maybe it’s you who should

  • Let’s work on helping people not get to the point of having their kids taken

  • “As much as I am down on fostering because of having to be involved with the state, that's the system we have. … They need whatever kind of stability they can get, whatever positive experiences they can get… Get involved.” - Ian


Related Episodes

Related Blog Post