157. Freemasonry vs. Christianity: Hidden Altars of Government with Scipio Eruditus

What happens when we start asking where our public myths came from? Not just our slogans, but our symbols. Not just our laws, but the spiritual imagination sitting underneath them.

In this episode of The Bad Roman Podcast, Craig sits down with Scipio Eruditus of Dispatches from Reality to talk about the historical and theological entanglements between Freemasonry, Christianity, and the state. On the surface, that might sound like a niche topic. But the deeper the conversation goes, the more it starts to feel like a mirror. Why are Christians so quick to trust power? Why do symbols on currency, patriotic myths, and secret oaths seem easier for many people to defend than the plain teachings of Jesus?

This is not a light conversation, but it is an important one. Scipio shares how his own journey, from military service and patriotism to deep suspicion of government, forced him to rethink the stories he once believed. And as the episode unfolds, the bigger question comes into view: can followers of Jesus stay awake in a world built on hidden loyalties, or will we keep baptizing government and calling it righteousness?

From patriotism to disillusionment

Scipio’s story begins with the kind of loyalty many Americans understand. He joined the Air Force in the wake of 9/11 believing he was fighting for freedom. But war has a way of exposing the distance between what we are told and what is true. What happens when the script falls apart in real time? What do we do when the nation we trusted starts to look less like a protector and more like a storyteller protecting its own image?

That experience became a crack in the wall. The guest describes Afghanistan as a turning point, not only because of the violence, but because of the lies that seemed to surround it. Later, his involvement in a fraternity opened another door, this time into rituals, symbols, and hidden inheritances that would lead him into researching Freemasonry in much greater depth. Sometimes awakening does not come all at once. Sometimes it comes in layers, one false promise at a time.

“It was an absolutely major paradigm shift for me... and has forced me to look at the constitution and the founding of this nation in a much more critical light.” (10:03)

The mystery beneath the surface

Craig wisely begins with the language of mystery, pulling from 2 Thessalonians and asking whether the foundations of the United States are more spiritually loaded than most Christians realize. That is where the episode gets especially provocative. Scipio argues that Freemasonry is not just a fraternal club or harmless social network, but a modern expression of a much older spiritual rebellion, one that promises enlightenment, self-perfection, and power apart from God.

Whether listeners agree with every historical claim or not, the deeper challenge lands hard: Christians must learn to ask what kind of story a symbol is telling. A cross calls us to die. A flag calls us to rally. A secret oath calls us to conceal. Those are not small differences. And once we stop treating public life as neutral, we may begin to see how easily spiritual compromise wears respectable clothes.

“This is really the oldest heresy... the same temptation that the serpent tempted Eve with... ‘ye shall be like gods.’” (14:25)

Power loves secrecy, Jesus works in the light

One of the clearest themes in this conversation is that power protects itself. Secret societies, elite networks, and mutual loyalty structures are useful precisely because they shield influence from public accountability. That is one reason the discussion of the Morgan Affair matters so much in the episode. For Scipio, it becomes a case study in how a relatively small group can exercise outsized influence through shared secrecy, political relationships, and cultural fear.

That raises a very Christian question: what kind of kingdom does Jesus build? Not one held together by hidden handshakes, blood oaths, and carefully managed access. The Kingdom of God moves in truth, confession, mercy, and open proclamation. Jesus says let your yes be yes. Government says keep the inner circle protected. Jesus washes feet. Systems of domination guard the ladder.

“A more perfect agent for the devising and execution of conspiracies against church or state could scarcely have been conceived.” (11:05, quoting Charles Francis Adams)

Why Christians still cling to government

Maybe the most sobering part of the episode is not the discussion of Freemasonry itself. It is the repeated question underneath it: why do Christians keep trusting the very systems that train them away from Jesus? Craig returns more than once to the frustration of seeing believers recognize evil in the abstract, yet continue supporting government in practice. We can spot corruption, but we still want our side to run it.

And that may be the real spiritual danger here. We like visible strength. We like belonging. We like the feeling that if the right people held the levers, things would finally become righteous. But Jesus never told us to seize Caesar and clean him up. He told us to love enemies, tell the truth, reject hypocrisy, and follow Him. That path is slower. It is less glamorous. It gives us less control. Maybe that is why it feels so hard.

False light and true light

Late in the conversation, Craig asks directly about the guest’s claim that Masonic thought points toward Luciferian themes. However listeners hear that part of the discussion, the contrast that follows is deeply Christian and worth sitting with: what counts as light? Is it secret knowledge? Elite access? Self-deification? Or is it Christ Himself, the true Light who enters the world without coercion, spectacle, or domination?

That contrast matters far beyond this topic. Every age has its version of “further light.” New techniques. New access. New power. New ways for humanity to save itself. But Jesus does not offer enlightenment as a ladder for the strong. He offers Himself to the poor in spirit, the meek, the merciful, and the peacemakers. He does not flatter our pride. He crucifies it.

“What do you most desire? Not Christ, but the further light in masonry...” (53:17)

No king but Christ still matters

By the end, the conversation widens back out. Freemasonry may be the subject, but allegiance is the deeper issue. What are we really trusting? What stories have formed us? What are we willing to overlook because the symbols feel familiar and the system feels normal?

This episode does not ask us to become obsessed with hidden things. It asks us to become faithful in plain things. Tell the truth. Refuse idolatry. Be skeptical of power. Measure every claim, symbol, and system against Jesus. If something needs secrecy, coercion, and flattery to survive, it probably does not belong to the Kingdom.

And maybe that is the final invitation here: stop chasing the machinery of government and return to the Lamb. The Church does not need better hidden networks. It needs clearer allegiance.

🤝Connect with Scipio Eruditus🤝

• Substack: Dispatches from Reality — dfreality.substack.com

• YouTube: Dispatches From Reality / @ScipioEruditus

• Podcast: Dispatches from Reality - Narrated (Spotify and Apple Podcasts)

Highlights & Takeaways

• Patriotism can feel holy until lived experience reveals how deeply government depends on myth.

• Hidden rituals and public symbols both disciple people; neither is neutral.

• Jesus builds His Kingdom in truth and light, not secrecy and elite protection.

• The temptation to “be like gods” still shows up anywhere power is pursued apart from God.

• Christians often condemn corruption in theory while still defending it when their tribe benefits.

• “Further light” is a dangerous promise when it pulls us away from Christ, the true Light.

• The real issue is not curiosity about secret societies, but clarity about allegiance.

• No reform of government can replace the call to simple obedience to Jesus.

Listen

Listen for the deeper thread running through the whole conversation: not just Freemasonry, but the way power forms our imagination and teaches us what to trust.

Reflect

Ask yourself where your own loyalties have been shaped more by national myth, institutional respectability, or cultural fear than by the words of Jesus.

Read

Read 2 Thessalonians 2:7, Genesis 3, John 1, and Matthew 5–7. Notice the contrast between mystery, false light, and the way of Christ.

Practice

Take one symbol, slogan, or civic ritual you have always treated as normal, and honestly ask: does this move me closer to the Lamb, or closer to the logic of government?

Episode Timestamps:

(0:00) Opening the question: Freemasonry, Christianity, and the state

• Craig’s curiosity and caution

• Searching for truth beyond documentaries and TV narratives

(1:15) Meeting Scipio Eruditus

• Pseudonym and writing background

• Long-form essays as method

• Entering the subject through research, not spectacle

(2:12) War, patriotism, and the breaking of trust

• Air Force service after 9/11

• Afghanistan as paradigm shift

• Propaganda, freedom-talk, disillusionment

(5:16) Fraternities as a gateway into deeper questions

• Former membership in Fiji Fraternity

• Masonic overlap in ritual and symbolism

• Secret oaths, handshakes, initiation patterns

(6:43) The initiation experience that shook him

• Hooded transport to a lodge

• Sense of dread, evil, spiritual unease

• Checkerboard floor, all-seeing eye, symbols everywhere

(8:28) Freemasonry and the making of the modern world

• History hidden in plain sight

• Influence on the last 300 years

• Mainline scholarship, not just fringe material

(9:24) Patriotism losing its innocence

• “American chauvinist” past

• Scales falling from the eyes

• Constitution and founding myths reconsidered

(10:14) The “mystery” question

• 2 Thessalonians 2 as framing text

• Freemasonry as hidden foundation

• Cornerstones, symbols, and spiritual undercurrents

(11:05) Secret societies and conspiracy against church and state

• Charles Francis Adams quote

• Elite men sworn to secrecy

• Bloody oaths, hierarchy, insulation from accountability

(12:26) Ancient religion, Babylon, and Egypt

• Mystery religion language

• Ritual parallels and symbols

• Ancient rebellion carried forward

(13:32) The unfinished pyramid and “the great work”

• Dollar-bill symbolism

• Human self-perfection apart from God

• Theosis without Christ, rebellion dressed as progress

(14:25) The oldest heresy returns

• Genesis 3 and “ye shall be like gods”

• False light, false liberation

• Christ vs self-divinization

(18:04) Lower ranks, hidden knowledge, and the shield of charity

• “We do good works” defense

• Scouting for the amenable

• Ignorance below the top levels

(29:01) Why such a small group carries so much influence

• Elite appeal, movers and shakers

• Influence on state and Christian imagination

• Surface-level Christianity confronted

(30:30) The Morgan Affair

• Competing public narratives

• Kidnapping and cover-up claims

• John Quincy Adams as outspoken critic

(31:46) Political dominion and suppression of scandal

• Public press influence

• Governors, senators, secret orders

• Small network, outsized power

(34:57) Support the Bad Roman Project

(49:09) Symbols on the currency

• Subtle and bold at once

• Masonic imagery in plain sight

• Public apathy, normalized corruption

(50:39) Allegiance, Lucifer, and false light

• Craig’s question about satanic allegiance

• Digging into Masonic literature

• Albert Pike and the language of light

(53:17) “Further light in masonry”

• Oath language contrasted with Christ

• Morning star imagery

• False knowledge vs true light

(58:58) Is Freemasonry still driving government today?

• Influence changing form

• Other occult groups taking cultural space

• Institution fading, deeper logic remaining

(59:17) Can Christians make government righteous?

• Voting to “improve” Caesar

• State reform vs Kingdom fidelity

• The limits of political salvation

(1:12:20) Where to find Scipio’s work

• Dispatches from Reality on Substack

• Weekly roundups and long-form essays

• YouTube: @ScipioEruditus

• Podcast: Dispatches from Reality - Narrated (Spotify and Apple Podcasts)

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156. Are Rights from God or Government? with Cal Robbins

We use the word freedom so often that it has almost lost its shape. It can mean safety. It can mean privacy. It can mean prosperity. It can mean “leave me alone.” It can also mean “let my side win.”

 In America, freedom is one of those words everybody loves and almost nobody defines.That is why this episode matters. 

Craig opens with the real question right away: does liberty come from government, or does it come from our Creator? And if liberty is a gift from God, then we do not get to talk about it like the state hands it out, manages it, limits it, or takes credit for it. We have to ask a deeper question: what does liberty look like when Jesus, not Caesar, is Lord?

Defining Rightful Liberty

That is where Cal Robbins takes us. He goes back to Thomas Jefferson’s 1819 response to Isaac Tiffany, where Jefferson says the word liberty has been used so many different ways that it no longer gives a clear meaning to the mind. So Jefferson makes a distinction. There is liberty in the broad sense, which Cal treats as freedom, the unobstructed action of our own will. But then there is rightful liberty: the unobstructed action of our own will within the limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others.

That is the thread that holds this whole episode together. Not freedom without limits. Not control dressed up as order. Rightful liberty.

That distinction matters because it exposes the lie at the center of so much of our politics and even so much of our faith talk. We say we want liberty, but what we often want is permission for ourselves and limits for other people. We want freedom when it protects our comfort, then law when other people make us nervous. We want rights when we are talking about our tribe, then rules when we are talking about strangers. Rightful liberty ruins that game. It says the rights I claim for myself belong to my neighbor too.

Equal Rights And The Image Of God

There is a reason this conversation feels heavier than a normal political discussion. It is not just asking whether a system works. It is asking whether we have learned to see other people rightly.

Cal says that once he began to understand rightful liberty, he started to feel sympathy, empathy, even pity where he once might have felt anger or contempt. He says it changed the way he saw people. More than that, he says it brought him back to the teachings of Jesus. He began to see that rightful liberty was not just a political idea but something deeply tied to Christ, to free will, and to the straight and narrow path.

Craig picks up that thread by bringing in Galatians 5:1 and asking whether freedom in Christ might also mean freedom from slavery in a broader sense, even freedom from statism. That move keeps the whole episode from collapsing into civics. This is not a lecture on founding language. It is a wrestling match over whether the liberty we talk about in public life actually matches the freedom Christ calls us into.

If Christ sets people free, why are Christians still so eager to hand themselves over to rulers? Why are we so quick to trust systems of force, systems of control, systems that claim power over image-bearers made by God?

When Liberty Gets Tested

And that is where the episode gets sharp.

Because rightful liberty is not left floating in theory. It gets tested. Slavery comes up quickly, and Craig is blunt: he does not care whether slavery was legal, because legal does not mean moral. That line becomes a door into one of the hardest and clearest parts of the episode. If a law can bless something as evil as slavery, then Christians cannot pretend the law is the final measure of justice.

That same line of thought runs straight into immigration. Not as a side issue, but as a test of whether we really mean what we say about liberty. Craig points to the border as an imaginary line and asks why crossing it suddenly makes a human being “illegal.” Cal pushes further and says denying people free movement because the state says so is not liberty at all. He calls it a rejection of rightful liberty, a rejection of what God gave.

His logic is simple and hard to get around: if I claim a natural right to move, but deny that same right to somebody else because the government told me to, then I am putting man’s law above God’s gift. In his words, that is rendering unto Caesar what belongs to God.

Caesar, Voting, And The Tyrant’s Will

The same test shows up again when the conversation turns to voting and “render unto Caesar.” Cal says that when we vote to impose rulers on our neighbors, we are once again rendering unto Caesar what belongs to God.

Craig pushes back on the usual statist use of Matthew 22 and asks the harder question: what actually belongs to Caesar? If my life is God-given, if my rights are God-given, if my neighbor’s dignity is God-given, then what exactly are we handing over when we call the state our authority?

That is why Jefferson’s fuller line matters here too. Rightful liberty is not merely action within the law, because law is often but the tyrant’s will. That one sentence should break apart a lot of lazy Christian trust in the state. Christians cannot hide behind legality. We cannot keep saying “it’s the law” as if that settles the matter.

Jesus And The Shape Of True Liberty

What keeps this from turning into a cold political argument is that it keeps coming back to Jesus.

Cal says outright that rightful liberty became, for him, almost synonymous with Christ. He says Jesus was an excellent example of how to live in rightful liberty. That is not a throwaway line. It is the heart of the whole episode.

Jesus never forced people into discipleship. He never used power the way rulers do. He never treated people as objects to manage. He told the truth, loved His neighbor, and refused the kingdoms of the world when they were offered to Him. Rightful liberty, as this episode describes it, is free will exercised in the light of God and in the presence of neighbors who bear the same dignity we do.

That is why Cal can connect rightful liberty to Christ, free will, and even the path toward salvation. It is not just about politics. It is about what kind of people we are becoming.

The Church Must Tell The Truth Again

Craig also presses on the witness of the Church, especially the cruelty so often seen online from people who claim Christ. That part matters because the failure here is not just political confusion. It is spiritual contradiction.

If we say “No King but Christ,” but still crave rulers, still cheer domination, still use fear as our moral compass, then what are we really confessing? Rightful liberty does not just expose bad policy. It exposes a damaged discipleship that keeps trusting Caesar to do what only love, truth, and self-government under God can do.

By the end, the episode lands in a place that is both simple and demanding. Rightful liberty is the proper exercise of free will under God. It is not limitless freedom. It is freedom with moral shape. It is the refusal to violate the equal rights of others. It is liberty disciplined by love.

That is why Craig can boil the whole thing down to a plain phrase: don’t hurt people, don’t take their stuff. Crude maybe, but clear. And clarity is hard to come by in a world where we are constantly told that coercion is compassion, legality is morality, and empire is order.

“No King but Christ” means more here than a slogan against nationalism. It means no one gets to claim ownership over what God already gave. Not the president. Not the court. Not the border. Not the ballot. Not the church when it acts like an arm of the state.

Connect with Cal Robbins

• Republic Broadcasting

• Michael Gaddy’s Substack

Highlights & Takeaways

• Rightful liberty is not doing whatever we want.

• Rightful liberty means acting within the equal rights of others.

• Rights come from God, not government.

• Legal does not mean moral.

• Borders, ballots, and rulers fail the test when they violate God-given dignity.

• Cal connects rightful liberty to Christ, free will, and the straight and narrow path.

• Jefferson’s warning still stands: law can become the tyrant’s will.
  “No King but Christ” means we stop giving Caesar credit for gifts that came from God.

Listen & Reflect

Listen for how early the episode defines rightful liberty. Everything else builds from that one distinction.

Reflect: Where do we call something freedom when we really mean control? Where do we demand rights for ourselves that we deny to others?

Read: Galatians 5:1, Matthew 22:15–22, and 1 Samuel 8. Then hold them next to Jefferson’s definition of rightful liberty and sit with the tension.

Practice:  Galatians 5:1, Matthew 22:15–22, and 1 Samuel 8. Before you defend any law, policy, border, or political habit this week, ask one question: does this honor the equal rights of others, or violate them?

Episode Timestamps:

0:00 Rightful Liberty

• rights from God, not government

• Golden Rule

• Cal Robbins

1:04 Safety Over Freedom

• people want safety, not liberty

• state narratives

• Minnesota shooting, Venezuela

2:20 Cal’s Liberty Journey

• Ron Paul movement
  pocket Constitution days

• corruption in the system

3:45 Jefferson’s Definition

• many meanings of liberty

• rightful liberty takes shape

• Thomas Jefferson

• Isaac Tiffany

6:21 Equal Rights Of Others

• liberty within limits

• no man above another

• equal rights for all mankind

• Declaration of Independence

8:24 Freedom Vs. Liberty

• freedom without limits

• taking your car example

• limits set by God, not man

• property rights

9:27 Sympathy And Empathy

• seeing your neighbor as equal
  compassion grows when statism fades

• Craig’s old neocon days

11:12 Rightful Liberty And Christ

• pity instead of hatred

• free will

• straight and narrow path

• Jesus Christ

12:50 Freedom In Christ

• freedom from sin, slavery, statism

• Roman oppression

• Galatians 5:1

14:20 Slavery And Immigration

• legal doesn’t mean moral

• imaginary lines and free movement

• Patrick Henry

• Lion of Liberty

15:12 Rejecting God’s Gift

• borders as rejection of rightful liberty

• natural right to travel

• liberty as a gift from God

16:45 Image Of God

• no human becomes less human by law

• “illegal” people still bear God’s image

• God’s law over state law

17:30 Slavery Never Really Left

• chattel slavery, fiscal slavery

• debt and bondage

• posterity

• future generations

18:25 Voting And Coercion

• ballot box as force

• imposing rulers on neighbors

• voting

20:00 Render Unto Caesar

• what actually belongs to Caesar?

• rights from God

• gifts we hand to the state

• Matthew 22

22:45 War And Repentance

• blood on our hands

• owning past support for violence

• War on Terror

• Abby Neer

24:07 Unconditional Love

• love beyond comprehension

• people go out of their way to hate

• God is love

• loving one another

25:15 Broken Christian Witness

• Christians sounding cruel online

• witness to the world

• Church and public life

27:20 One Human Family

• same tribe

• equal dignity

• liberty and neighbor love

30:24 The Golden Rule

• rightful liberty in practice

• Reciprocity

• Jesus

• Confucius

31:30 Rendering To Caesar What Is God’s

• liberty handed over to rulers

• deception dressed as order

• God-given rights

34:00 Jesus Rejected The Kingdoms

• worldly power refused
  service over domination

• temptation of Christ

35:30 Why The World Rejects Us

• Christians not acting like Christ

• public witness problem

• how outsiders see the Church

37:15 Hate Cannot Heal

• unconditional love vs hatred

• good and evil

• what kind of spirit we carry

41:20 No King But Christ

• Christ alone is worthy to rule

• brotherhood over domination

• Kingship of Jesus

43:00 Asking For A King

• people still want rulers

• rejecting God’s rule

• 1 Samuel 8

44:05 What Jesus Never Did

• never imposed His will

• coercion vs discipleship

• WWJD

45:30 The Temptation Of Power

• Satan offers the kingdoms

• Jesus refuses state power

• temptation narrative

47:00 Rights Come From God

• rights not created by paper

• Constitution doesn’t grant liberty

• Creator

• Declaration language

49:45 Proper Exercise Of Liberty

• self-restraint

• rights with limits
  rightful liberty in daily life

53:45 Don’t Hurt People

• don’t take their stuff

• simple moral vision

• Don’t Hurt People and Don’t Take Their Stuff, by Matt Kibbe

54:57 The Full Jefferson Quote

• law is often but the tyrant’s will

• individual rights

• Thomas Jefferson

56:30 Patrick Henry and the Anti-Federalists

• warnings about centralized power

• Constitution skepticism

• Patrick Henry

• anti federalists

57:42 Forensic History

• back to source documents

• letters, speeches, original texts

• Michael Gaddy

• Republic Broadcasting

58:40 Learn The Real History

• history you were never taught

• Substack and classes

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155. The State of the Holy Union: Is the President Barabbas? with Paul Lazzaroni

Sometimes we say we follow Jesus… but we still want a “strong guy” to save us. We want someone who will fight, punish our enemies, and “fix the country.” But what if that hope is closer to Barabbas than to Jesus?

In this episode, Craig talks with Paul Lazzaroni (Cross and Cornerstone / No King but Christ Network) about a big idea from Paul’s article, “Is Trump Barabbas?” The point isn’t mainly about one politician. It’s about a mindset. The crowd picked Barabbas. Someone tied to violence and revolt instead of Jesus. And if we’re honest, we can still want that kind of “savior” today. So we ask: Are we being shaped by the Kingdom of God… or by the kingdoms of this world?

The Barabbas Temptation

Barabbas wasn’t just “some other guy.” He stood for a certain kind of rescue: power, force, control. The kind of rescue that feels fast and strong.

Paul and Craig talk about how easy it is for Christians to drift into that way of thinking. We may not say, “Give us Barabbas,” out loud. But we can say it with our cravings. Craving a leader who will “win” for us, crush the “bad guys,” and make our fears go away.

Jesus doesn’t offer that kind of victory. He offers a cross. And that’s the problem… and the invitation.

When Politics Becomes Discipleship

Paul shares that he doesn’t vote and tries not to live inside political arguments. Not because he doesn’t care, but because he doesn’t want politics to become what shapes him. Craig comes at it from another angle: he’s loud about this stuff because he’s watching Christians tie their faith to state power, and it keeps hurting people.

Here’s one of the main questions underneath the whole episode:

If Jesus teaches enemy-love, mercy, and humility… why do Christians so often chase power, punishment, and control?

And another question:

When we say “we’re protecting our country,” are we protecting our neighbors, or protecting our own comfort?

God’s Slow Work: From Slavery Thinking to Freedom Living

Craig asks Paul to lay down some Bible groundwork, especially around Israel leaving Egypt and being formed in the wilderness. Paul’s point is simple: people who lived under slavery don’t suddenly know how to live free. They have to be healed. Re-trained. Re-shaped.

That changes how we think about Scripture and law. Instead of reading the Old Testament like “God’s dream is control,” Paul points toward a story of God patiently forming a people who learn justice, care for the vulnerable, and a different way to live together.

That matters today because Christian nationalism often sounds like Egypt thinking with Bible words:

 “Force people to be good.”
“Control society.”
“Win at all costs.”

But God’s way is slower, and it looks a lot more like Jesus.

Modern Babylon: A Place or a Pattern?

The Bible uses “Babylon” as a picture of empire: a system that trains people to trust power, money, fear, and violence.

Craig and Paul ask whether America slips into acting like “a modern Babylon.” Not as a simple insult, but as a warning. Because Babylon isn’t only “out there.” It can be in us. It can shape what we think “safety” means. It can shape what we think “good” means. It can even shape what we think “Christian” means.

So we’re left with a hard but honest question: Are we trying to build God’s Kingdom… or are we helping Babylon feel holy?

The Kind of King We Keep Asking For

One of the hardest parts of this conversation is realizing this: we don’t only want safety. We often want control. We want a king who will make the world feel simple again: good guys vs. bad guys, winners vs. losers.

But Jesus keeps refusing to be that kind of king. He doesn’t grab power. He doesn’t build His kingdom with threats. He doesn’t save the world by hurting the “right people.” That’s why Barabbas is such a strong picture. Barabbas is the kind of “rescuer” the crowd understands.

 Jesus is the kind they don’t.

So the question is not just, “Who do we vote for?” It’s, “What kind of king do we secretly want?”

Good News Has A Target

Craig and Paul circle back to a simple test that cuts through a lot of noise: Is it good news for the poor? For the oppressed? For the outsider?

Jesus’ mission isn’t vague. He doesn’t just say “be nice.” He announces freedom, healing, mercy, and justice. That kind of good news has real faces: the hungry, the prisoner, the immigrant, the exploited, the outcast. If our “Christian” politics mainly protects the comfortable and punishes the vulnerable, something is backwards.

This is where Christian nationalism gets exposed. It often sounds like “God and country,” but it doesn’t always sound like Jesus.

No King But Christ Means We Live Different

If we say “Jesus is Lord,” that can’t just be a slogan. It has to show up in how we treat people, how we talk about enemies, and what we’re willing to do without the government’s help.

“No King but Christ” doesn’t mean we stop caring about the world. It means we stop believing power is the savior. It means we stop acting like fear gets the final word. And it means we practice the Kingdom right now, small, real, local, and brave.

Not with a flag. Not with threats. Not with “winning.” But with the kind of love Jesus actually taught.

Highlights & Takeaways

• The “Barabbas mindset” is wanting a savior who uses power and force instead of the way of Jesus.

• This isn’t just about one politician—it’s about what we crave when we’re afraid.

• If politics is shaping our hearts more than Jesus is, something is off.

• God’s story in Scripture is often slow formation, not quick domination.

• “Babylon” is an empire pattern—fear, control, and violence dressed up as “order.”

• A good test: Is what we’re supporting good news for the poor, the oppressed, and the outsider? If not, it probably isn’t Jesus’ way.

• Following Jesus means we don’t need a flag to tell us who we are.

🤝 Connect with Paul Lazzaroni 🤝

• Cross and Cornerstone (Website / Blog + Articles)

• C&C Facebook Page

• No King but Christ Network (Paul’s work is featured there): nokingbutchristnetwork.com

• Paul’s Personal Pages

• Instagram

• Facebook

• YouTube

• TikTok

Listen & Reflect

Listen: Pay attention to the moments where you feel the pull toward “we need a strong leader.” What emotion is underneath that: fear, anger, exhaustion?

Reflect: Where have we accepted the idea that “the state will love our neighbor for us”? What would it look like to take that responsibility back?

Read: Re-read Luke 23 (Jesus and Barabbas). Then read Matthew 5 (especially enemy-love). Ask: Which way looks more like my life right now?

Practice: Do one small, real act of love that doesn’t depend on elections: help someone, forgive someone, feed someone, show up for someone. Let Jesus shape your reflexes.

Episode Timestamps:

(0:00) Jesus or Caesar?

• state power / coercion

• violence vs cross-shaped love

• allegiance, obedience, faithful resistance

(0:45) Meet Paul Lazzaroni

• No King but Christ Network

• Paul’s background + why he’s here

• Cross and Cornerstone connection

(1:27) “Is Trump Barabbas?”

• title as provocation

• not about one person

• Barabbas as symbol / warning

(2:20) The Barabbas Mindset

• strongman savior instinct

• fear → anger → control

• “revolt for us” vs “take up your cross”

(8:36) Why Paul Doesn’t Vote

• informed vs formed

• political identity vs Kingdom identity

• stepping back from the outrage machine

(17:57) Wilderness First

• Exodus / slavery mindset

• formation before “law”

• Leviticus groundwork, God re-shaping a people

(47:30) Modern Babylon

• Babylon as system / pattern

• empire imagination

• fear, control, violence dressed up as “order”

(47:57) Mindsets and Mimic Kingdoms

• tribal belonging / “our team”

• empire logic: power promises salvation

• winning vs faithfulness, control vs Spirit

(53:33) What Is Cross and Cornerstone?

• website + blog/articles hub 

• learning-in-public: what Paul’s studying + wrestling through

• resources for folks not finding this in church

(55:32) Why “Cornerstone”?

• rejected stone / Jesus as foundation

• Paul’s story: rejecting, returning, grace

• identity built on Christ, not empire

(57:16) Writing, Learning, Humility

• learning through writing

• “journey of humility”

• Scripture forming us (not agendas)

Sit with Discomfort

If this episode made you uncomfortable, you’re not alone. That might be the Spirit pulling us away from the crowd, and back toward Jesus. 

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154. Kingdom Politics vs. Chaos: Can a Voluntary Society Reflect Jesus?

“What if the problem isn’t that we haven’t found the right rulers, but that we keep assuming someone needs to rule us at all?”

There’s a moment that shows up in almost every conversation about politics and faith. It usually comes right after someone says, “Okay, but what about bad people?” The room tightens. The air shifts. Because underneath the question isn’t policy, it’s fear. Fear of chaos. Fear of losing control. Fear that without someone in charge, everything falls apart.

This episode lives inside that moment.

Craig sits down with economist and author Bob Murphy to talk about Bob’s short book, Chaos Theory. On the surface, it’s about how law, courts, and public safety might work without a centralized state. But that’s not really why Craig wanted the conversation. What he’s really asking is something Christians rarely slow down long enough to face: Why are we so sure that force is necessary for order, and what does that say about what we believe Jesus actually taught?

Bob doesn’t come in trying to convince anyone. He comes in careful. Thoughtful. Almost pastoral. He knows the ideas he’s talking about can trigger alarm bells. So instead of starting with labels or slogans, he starts with a question that keeps circling back throughout the episode: Should anyone be allowed to do things that would be wrong for everyone else?

Craig Meets Bob Murphy

Craig opens with honesty. He’s familiar with these ideas. He’s heard them before. But he also knows where people get stuck. It’s not usually in theory. It’s in the details.

“How does this actually work?” Craig asks. “Not in a perfect world, but in this one.”

Bob nods. He doesn’t promise a world without sin or harm. “The goal isn’t utopia,” he says. “The goal is removing what I call an institutionalized aggressor.”

That phrase lands heavy.

Bob explains that every system has problems because people have problems. The difference is whether the system itself assumes that violence and threats are necessary tools. A voluntary society, he says, doesn’t eliminate wrongdoing. It eliminates the idea that some people are allowed to do wrong by design.

Craig pauses there, not because he disagrees, but because he recognizes how deeply that assumption runs. For Christians, this isn’t an abstract argument. It cuts straight into how we’ve learned to think about safety, authority, and obedience.

Why Bob Steps Around the Word “Anarchy”

Early in the conversation, Bob explains why he rarely leads with the word “anarchist,” especially among Christians. The word comes loaded. Too many images. Too many misunderstandings.

“I actually believe in order,” Bob says. “I just don’t think order requires rulers.”

Instead, he uses the phrase voluntary society. It sounds less dramatic, but it’s more accurate. A voluntary society isn’t about tearing everything down. It’s about cooperation without coercion. Rules without rulers. Agreement without threats.

Craig connects this to Christian nationalism almost instinctively. When Christians say “Jesus is King,” do we really believe it? Or do we still assume someone else needs to enforce things for Him? Jesus refused power when it was offered. He didn’t seize control. He invited people to follow.

That contrast lingers.

A Boring Word That Changes Everything

Midway through the episode, Craig opens Bob’s book and lands on a section that doesn’t sound very spiritual at all: contracts.

It almost feels like a letdown at first. No revolution. No big speeches. Just agreements.

But Bob leans in. Contracts, he explains, are how most of our lives already work. Jobs. Housing. Insurance. Services. We trust them not because someone is holding a gun, but because incentives, reputation, and accountability matter.

“Insurance companies don’t want to write million-dollar checks,” Bob says. “So they care about safety. They ask questions. They check training. They look at track records.”

Craig pushes back with the concern many listeners will feel. What about the vulnerable? What about people without power or money?

Bob doesn’t pretend this system fixes everything. He simply points out that our current system already fails the vulnerable, often while claiming moral authority. A voluntary system doesn’t solve sin. It just stops pretending that force is love.

Consent, Compliance, and the Ballot Box

One of the most uncomfortable turns in the conversation comes when Bob challenges the idea that voting equals consent.

“In normal life,” Bob says, “consent means you can say no. You can walk away.”

You can’t really do that with the state.

Markets depend on persuasion. Governments depend on compliance. Craig lets that contrast sit without rushing to resolve it. Because Jesus never appealed to majorities. He appealed to hearts. To repentance. To truth.

“If we wouldn’t do this to our neighbor,” Craig reflects, “why are we okay with a system that does?”

That question doesn’t get answered. And that’s the point.

Live the Question Jesus Calls us To Ask

This episode doesn’t give you a platform to stand on. It gives you a question to carry. And following Jesus has always meant carrying questions that cost us something.

If this conversation unsettled you, sit with that. Keep asking what it really means to follow a crucified King.

🤝 Connect with Bob Murphy 🤝

• Read the Book: Chaos Theory (buy on Amazon), Chaos Theory (pdf)

• Bob’s other books: Contra Krugman: Smashing the Errors of America’s Most Famous Keynesian; Lessons for the Young Economist; Choice: Cooperation, Enterprise, and Human Action

• Bob’s Podcasts: Human Action Podcast and The Bob Murphy Show

• X (Twitter): @BobMurphyEcon

• Bob’s YouTube Channel:@BobMurphyAncap

Highlights & Takeaways

• A voluntary society doesn’t promise a perfect world

• It refuses to give moral exemptions to people in power

• Order and control are not the same thing

• Consent requires the real option to walk away

• Jesus never modeled threat-based transformation

• Christian nationalism trusts force where Jesus trusted faithfulness

• You don’t need a political plan to name a moral problem

Listen & Reflect

Listen: Pay attention to where fear enters the conversation. What are we afraid would happen if control loosened?

Reflect: Where have we accepted systems that do things we would never justify in our own lives?

Read: Read Matthew 5–7 slowly. Notice which teachings feel “impractical,”and ask why.

Practice: This week, choose persuasion over pressure in one real situation. Let go of leverage and see what remains.

Episode Timestamps:

(00:00) Voluntary Society: “Wouldn’t That Be Chaos?”

• bad actors, security, fear of “chaos”

• why Bob Murphy + Chaos Theory today

• frame: Christ over the state

(00:45) Welcome Bob Murphy

• Craig’s intro + how they got connected (Dominic)

• Episodes with Dominic

• Judas the OG Christian Nationalist: Why Imposters Are Worse Than Opponents with Domenic Scarcella EP #147

• Christianity Unpacked in "Good Neighbor, Bad Citizen" with Domenic Scarcella EP #97

(06:19) Why Bob Avoids the “Anarchist” Label

• two kinds of “anarchists”

• “I have a king… not an earthly king”

• prefers “voluntary society” language

(07:19) Sermon on the Mount + Politics That Fit Jesus

• “dovetail… best with what Jesus told Christians”

• Craig’s shift from “looking for somebody to vote for”

• discipleship vs ideology

(10:57) “I Don’t Have to Have a Plan”

• refusing the election-pressure test

• “this current system… is crazy”

• Craig: “yeah, you’re allowed”

(11:33) Salsa Break: No King but Christ

• put the politics down

• support the show

• “no king but Christ” hook

(12:14) Chaos Theory: Contracts

• why contracts matter in a voluntary society

• how contracts already matter

(14:37) “Institutionalized Aggressor” + Imposed Rules

• no “my guy loses → stuff imposed on me”

• what the booklet is trying to show

• contracts “on the front end”

(33:14) Insurance as Due Diligence

• “standard package” idea

• insurance companies = background checks

• malpractice example bridge

(34:03) Incentives: Background Checks + Risk

• “we might have to pay $2 million”

• vetting training, history, reputation

• why incentives shape behavior

(46:57) “Give the Experts Guns” Problem

• “very naive” assumption

• experts can be the bad guys

• quick support spotfund message + Memphis charities

(58:27) “Aren’t Insurance Companies the Government?”

• “they seem like they play an important part”

• Bob: not government because it’s voluntary

• competition + no power to block new entrants

(1:03:24) Where to Find Bob + What He’s Building

• how to get Chaos Theory (PDF or physical)

• Human Action Podcast + other work

(1:04:22) Wrap-Up + Possible Part 2

• “small book… packed tight”

• Bob open to coming back

• Craig: “we didn’t get to cover everything”

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153. Star-Spangled Jesus: Waking up From Christian Nationalism with April Ajoy

What happens when we wrap the cross in a flag and call it faith?

What happens when our love for country grows louder than our love for enemies?

This is a wake-up story. It is about good people who meant well. It is about churches that wanted to do the right thing. It is about a path that seemed holy and strong, but slowly bent us away from Jesus. It is also about grace. How the Spirit opens our eyes. How laughter can heal shame. How the Kingdom looks nothing like the empire.

Our guide is April Ajoy. She grew up inside this world. She knows the songs. She knows the slogans. She also knows the moment when you hear Jesus whisper, “My Kingdom is not of this world,” and it finally lands. In her words, most people who live this way “just think they’re being good Christians.”

Inside the story, it felt like faith

If you grew up in a church like Craig’s or April’s, politics did not feel like politics. It felt like faith. It felt like doing your duty for God. You listened to your pastor. You loved your country. You voted for the “Christian” team. No one said, “We are Christian nationalists.” People said, “We love Jesus. We love America. We want what’s right.”

That is why this is so sticky. You can be sincere. You can be kind. You can also be discipled by a party and not know it. April names it out loud: the biggest problem is not people with evil plans; it’s people who honestly think they’re walking with Jesus while they carry the empire’s sword in their other hand.

Craig admits he once called the GOP “God’s own party.” He laughs now, because he remembers repeating it like a memorized verse. It was the air they breathed.

When you are inside the story, it all makes sense. When Jesus brings you outside, you start seeing the rot. You notice how the fruit tastes. You notice how fear leads the dance. And then you begin to change.

Craig meets April, and something clicks

Craig found April’s work online. He heard her tell stories that felt like his own. Texas. Tennessee. Sports teams. Church life. And a slow shift from party loyalty to King Jesus. He listened to Star-Spangled Jesus and felt like he was hearing pieces of his life sung back to him.

This is how change often starts. Not with a fight. Not with a headline. With a voice that sounds like home, saying true things in a kind way.

Humor tells the truth without the knives

April uses humor on purpose. Not to mock. Not to dunk. To lower the heat. To make space for honesty. She talks about a public “Jesus juke,” where someone tries to rush past hard facts with a holy-sounding line. She tells a story about a famous post that tried to make the Epstein files into a quick lesson about God’s “files.” It was a dodge. It was a “Jesus juke.” Craig loved the term the moment he heard it and wrote it down.

Humor helps. It lets you say, “Hey, we all do this.” It lets people breathe and listen. It reminds us that repentance is good news, not a beating.

When the flag walks into church

Craig remembers the day his church stood for the Pledge of Allegiance in a Sunday service. They honored the troops. They sang “patriotic psalms.” It felt normal. It felt right. It felt like “we are a Christian nation.” Years later he calls it what it was: a rival allegiance sitting next to the cross. He did not see it then. He sees it now.

He says the title of April’s book sticks because it pictures what he saw: Jesus wrapped in a flag. It looks bold. It feels safe. But it slowly swaps the words of the Sermon on the Mount for the words of the party platform. It takes your heart a few inches at a time, until the beat is different and you barely notice.

April nods. She has seen the same thing. She has seen pulpits become podiums. She has seen the cross used as a logo for campaigns. She has seen how easy it is to confuse God’s Kingdom with earthly kingdoms. Jesus said His Kingdom is not from here. We forget that line at our own risk.

“We just thought we were the good guys”

Most of us did not wake up one day and choose empire over Kingdom. We chose “the good guys.” We believed the horror stories about the other side. We assumed force was needed to save what we loved. April tells a story from grad school. After watching a fear-heavy film, she and friends made a Romney campaign video. They thought the nation was on the brink. Fear felt like faith. It also felt normal in their circles.

Looking back, she calls the film “propaganda.” That word can sting. But it fits. Propaganda is anything that trains you to trust Caesar more than Christ, to see neighbors as problems, and to baptize the use of force. Once you name it, you can step out of it.

“Good Christians” vs. the Kingdom of Jesus

April’s simple line keeps echoing: people caught in Christian nationalism do not think they are in a movement. They think they are being faithful. That is the danger. If you believe this is faithfulness, you will double down whenever someone questions it. You will feel attacked. You will defend your team as if you are defending Jesus.

But Jesus did not run for office. He did not build a voting bloc. He did not command His friends to rule others. He told them to love enemies, bless those who curse, forgive seventy-seven times, and pick up a cross. That is not a platform. That is a life.

The early church read the Sermon on the Mount like marching orders. They did not ask Caesar to pass better laws. They became better neighbors. They cared for the poor. They refused to kill. They told the truth. They shared what they had. They chose the Lamb over the sword.

When our modern faith looks more like a campaign than a cross, it is time to repent. Not with shame, but with joy. Jesus is better than any flag.

The line we cross without noticing

How do you know you have drifted from faith into nationalism? April offers a simple test. If you believe something is a sin, you live by that belief. But when you try to make the state force your belief on your neighbor, you have stepped into nationalist territory. The “you can’t do that because it violates my belief” move is a tell. It shifts the center from Christ to control.

Craig applies that to hot-button issues, including Roe v. Wade. He says even if you disagree with abortion, the government should not have power over someone else’s body. “Why don’t we just leave it between the doctor and the person?” he asks. “Everybody’s solution is always government.”

That is a brave thing to say out loud in our times. It is also a clean way to test our hearts. Are we trying to disciple our neighbor or dominate them? Are we offering help or passing a law? Jesus never forced anyone into the Kingdom. He invited and loved.

From the feed to the table

Another test is where we spend our energy. If our “discipleship” happens mainly on social media, we will start to sound like social media. Craig confesses he used to fight online. He learned that face-to-face talks feel different. Looking someone in the eye slows you down. It builds trust. It shifts you from points to people. That is where hearts change.

It does not mean the internet is useless. People watch. People listen. Seeds get planted. But if we want to look like Jesus, we will need more tables than threads. We will need more meals than memes. We will need to move from “owning” to “serving.”

Why laughter matters when the truth hurts

Shame shuts people down. Fear makes people dig in. Humor does something different. It opens a window. It lets light in without burning. That is what April is doing. She names things like “Jesus jukes” and smiles. She lets us see the dodge, but she gives us room to breathe. We are all tempted to spiritualize what we do not want to face. Laughter helps us face it without hating ourselves. Craig’s reaction says it all: “I’ve never heard that before. I love it.”

Humor, used well, is a form of mercy. It is truth with a warm hand on your shoulder. It makes change feel possible.

“No King but Christ” is not a slogan; it is a path

Talk is easy. Slogans are easy. The Kingdom is a way of life. Here is what it looks like in plain steps:

• Read the words of Jesus out loud. Slowly. Matthew 5–7. Luke 6. John 13–17. Let them shape you.

• Bless the person you dislike. Do one small act of help with no strings.

• Stop baptizing your anger. If you post in rage, repent to the person you targeted.

• Refuse coercion as a tool. Offer help, not control.

• Do your politics at a table. Eat with people who vote different. Listen twice as much as you speak.

• Keep your eyes on the cross, not the flag. The flag changes. The Kingdom does not.

These are small, human moves. But that is the point. The Kingdom is yeast and seeds. It grows in simple soil.

The difference that makes all the difference

Here is the heart of it. We are not calling people to hate their country. We are calling people to love Jesus more than their country. To refuse to hurt neighbors in His name. To stop using the state to get our way. To trust slow love over fast force. To pick up a cross instead of a club.

This is not soft. It is strong. Enemy-love is harder than war talk. Forgiveness is harder than payback. Honesty is harder than spin. But this is the way.

When the church remembers this, the church starts to look like Jesus again.

Highlights & Takeaways

• Christian nationalism often feels like faith from the inside; many think they’re being faithful to Jesus, not political.

• Symbols preach. A flag beside the cross tells a story about who is really in charge. Craig lived it before he saw it.

• Humor heals. Naming the “Jesus juke” helps us face spin without shame and move toward truth together.

• Coercion is not the Christian way. Loving neighbors means refusing to force them to live by our convictions through the state.

• Stop outsourcing love to Caesar. “Leave it between the doctor and the person” models neighbor-first, Kingdom-first ethics.

• Move from threads to tables. Real change is face to face, not just online.

Listen & Reflect

🎧 Listen: Notice how humor lowers the heat. April’s “Jesus juke” line helps people admit the dodge without feeling attacked. Where might that help in your circle?

💬 Reflect: Have you ever tried to make the state enforce your beliefs on a neighbor? What would it look like to trust Jesus instead of force?

📖 Read: Matthew 5–7 this week. Ask, “Do my politics look like this?”

🤝 Practice: Take one conversation offline. Invite someone you disagree with to coffee. Listen for 15 minutes before you make a single claim.

🤝Connect with April Ajoy:

• Get the book: Star-Spangled Jesus: Leaving Christian Nationalism and Finding A True Faith

  • Listen to the Book on Spotify like Craig did!

• LinkTree

  • Instagram: @aprilajoy

  • Facebook: April Ajoy

  • X (Twitter): @aprilajoyr

  • TikTok: @aprilajoy

• Podcast: The Tim and April Show, YouTube, Instagram, Apple Podcast, Spotify

Episode Timestamps:

(0:00) Waking up from Christian nationalism

• Craig sets the theme and welcomes April Ajoy

• Why this matters for real people in real churches

• What “No King but Christ” means for this talk

(1:04) Finding April’s work

• Craig hears his own story in April’s voice

• Texas, Tennessee, and church culture they both know

• From party loyalty to the way of Jesus

(2:18) “Good Christians” and blind spots

• Most don’t think they’re nationalists; they think they’re faithful

• How the party line can sound like discipleship

• Cracks show when we sit with the Sermon on the Mount

(3:25) April’s current projects

• The Tim and April Show and weekly conversations

• Short videos that name the problem with kindness

• Where to follow April and keep learning

(10:31) Threads vs. tables

• Why online fights feel different than face-to-face talks

• Looking people in the eye builds trust and honesty

• Move from winning points to loving people

(12:48) Flags in the sanctuary

• Pledging in church felt normal at the time

• Symbols preach louder than we think

• Cross first, not country first

(15:05) The “Jesus juke”

• How holy talk can dodge hard truth

• Humor lowers the heat and opens ears

• We can face facts without shame

(18:22) Fear and propaganda

• A movie night that stirred panic

• A DIY campaign video born from fear

• Learning to spot spin dressed up as faith

(26:10) From conviction to control

• The quiet shift from “I won’t” to “you can’t”

• Why coercion betrays the way of Christ

• Invitation beats force every time

(30:44) Stop outsourcing love to Caesar

• “Leave it between the doctor and the person”

• Government power is a blunt tool

• Choose neighbor-first solutions

(45:50) Where to find April

• TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook @AprilAjoy

• Gentle tone, clear truth, steady practice

• Learn in small bites all week

(52:12) No King but Christ

• What faithfulness looks like in a land of flags

• Small acts of love over loud culture wars

• A simple path back to Jesus

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152. Did Government Authority Justify the Killing of Renee Nicole Good? A Christian View with Larken Rose

Was the shooting of a Christian mother of three, Renee Nicole Good, murder or self-defense? When Christians cheer for state violence, can we claim it is God we actually worship?

Craig sits down with author and provocateur Larken Rose, not to tally clips or dunk on strangers online, but to face a deeper sickness: our culture’s worship of “authority.” The story that played out on an icy street – ICE agents, a woman in a car, three bullets – exposes something far older than any badge. It exposes a rival religion. In that light, this episode is not merely commentary. It’s a mirror for the American church and a call to return to the Sermon on the Mount. 

A House Divided: Flag or Cross?

Followers of Jesus have always had to choose between two rival kingdoms. One hangs its hope on power, control, and the threat of punishment. The other takes up a cross and washes feet. One calls enemies “targets.” The other calls enemies “neighbors.” When a woman is shot through a car window by an agent of the state, the first kingdom asks whether the procedures were followed. The second asks whether love of neighbor has been abandoned.

Many Christians don’t like that contrast. It feels unfair, even accusatory. But the Gospels force the question. Jesus blesses peacemakers, not power-brokers. He rebukes the sword. He refuses to call down fire. He walks through Samaria instead of around it. He tells us that the way we treat the least of these is the way we treat Him.

If that is the King we confess, then any event involving state violence is not just a legal question; it’s a discipleship question. What we defend in public reveals what we worship in private. When a badge is enough to change our moral standard, we have traded the Kingdom for the empire and slapped Jesus’ name on it. That is not orthodoxy. That is idolatry.

What Actually Happened Matters, but Why We Defend It Matters More

Yes, facts matter. Video matters. Angles matter. In this case, people argue over the “first shot” like it’s a courtroom riddle, then skip past the unarguable reality of two more shots fired into a vehicle at a woman who posed no lethal threat. Some admit those facts and then slip into the great American shrug: if the state did it, it must be justified. That reflex is the problem.

Larken names it without blinking: the belief in authority trains ordinary people to excuse evil when their team does it. That is not a left-versus-right issue. It is a worship issue. You can hear it whenever someone says, “Well, she should have obeyed,” as if obedience to a man with a gun is identical to obedience to God. You see it whenever the conversation dodges the moral center, “You shall not murder,” “love your neighbor as yourself,” “blessed are the merciful,” and runs to procedures, politics, and public relations.

The church must refuse that dodge. The Kingdom does not baptize bullets because the shooter is wearing a government costume. The cross does not create exceptions for uniforms. If something is murder without a badge, it is still murder with a badge.

Badges Don’t Make New Morals

Imagine this scene without uniforms. Masked, armed men surround your car, try doors, yell commands, and one of them moves into the lane in front of your hood. If any gang behaved like this, nearly everyone would call it reckless, immoral, and criminal. So why, when the label reads “federal agent,” do some believers flip their ethics upside down? The answer is ugly: many of us believe the state has divine permission to do evil that would be evil for anyone else. We won’t say it that bluntly, but our defenses give it away.

Scripture gives us no such permission. Romans 13 cannot be read against Romans 12 or the Sermon on the Mount. Paul does not cancel Jesus. The early church did not arm itself with Caesar’s sword to spread the Gospel. The fathers we quote on holiness would laugh at the idea that a title grants moral immunity. “No King but Christ” means one moral law for everyone, from the poor to the powerful. Anything else is a golden calf in red, white, and blue paint.

This is why arguments about “procedure” miss the point. Procedures do not create righteousness. Policy manuals do not erase the image of God. If the second and third shots cannot be reconciled with neighbor-love, then they cannot be reconciled with the way of Christ. Period.

Milgram in the Pew: How Training Beats Conscience

Why do otherwise decent people defend what they know is wrong? Larken points to the Milgram experiments for a grim answer. In those studies, ordinary participants believed they were shocking strangers. They trembled. They begged to stop. They knew it was wrong. But a man in a lab coat told them to continue, and their training overpowered their conscience.

The details differ, but the mechanism is the same. Our culture trains us to obey official voices and to distrust our own moral sight. We are deputized by television dramas, press conferences, and patriotic ceremonies until our instinct is to side with uniforms and treat victims as problems. Christians are not immune. We should be. We have a King who heals the ear of His enemy in a garden and rebukes the disciple holding the blade. Yet our formation is often more Fox, CNN, and campaign season than Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

Repentance here looks like deprogramming. It looks like reading Scripture as if Jesus actually meant it. It looks like confessing that we’ve excused evil because it felt safe and our team was in charge. It looks like choosing to say out loud, “That was wrong,” even when our political friends frown. In Milgram’s study, the moment one person refused, many others found courage to stop too. The Church can be that person, that voice, that pause button on cruelty.

Tactics Are Not Morals

Some Christians try to solve their discomfort by shifting the conversation: “Maybe she shouldn’t have been there.” “Maybe she should have complied.” “Maybe she should have driven away faster… or slower.” You can say a choice was unwise. You can coach your kids on better tactics when approached by armed men. But none of that baptizes murder. None of it justifies bullets.

The moral center does not move with our tactical advice. Wisdom can help us survive a sinful world; it cannot make sin righteous. When we talk about tactics to avoid talking about morals, we confess our idolatry. We tell on ourselves. We admit that we want to protect the system more than we want to protect the weak.

A healthier church would tell a different story. It would grieve a life lost. It would comfort a neighborhood. It would ask whether our habits and budgets make this kind of violence more likely. It would bless the peacemakers and retrain the reflexes that cheer for force. It would teach children that bravery looks like stepping out of the cycle of retaliation, not doubling down on it.

What the Church Should Have Said

If pastors and Christian leaders had been formed by the Sermon on the Mount, the first public words after the video surfaced would have been simple:

• “This is a tragedy. We grieve with the family.”

• “A badge does not change the image of God in a victim.”

• “Even if procedures were followed, that does not make it moral.”

• “We will not baptize state violence. We will not slander the dead.”

• “We call our people to peacemaking, not to performative outrage.”

Instead, many Christians ran interference for power. Some called the dead a terrorist. Some cherry-picked statutes. Some mocked the neighbors recording the scene. Some asked “Have you not learned?” like a playground bully, as if the point of government is to frighten the populace into submission. This language betrays a different savior. It teaches a different gospel. The cross is replaced by the sword, the pastor’s stole by the riot shield.

We can do better. We must do better. Not to score points against an agency, but to keep our own souls.

The Oldest Lie in Politics: “We’re the Good Guys”

Both major parties baptize violence when it suits their platform. The rhetoric changes. The victims change. The television graphics change. The machine does not. Larken testifies that he too once wore the stickers, cheered the raids, and trusted the system. Many of us did. Repentance looks like telling the truth about that past and refusing to repeat it. It looks like saying, out loud, “I was wrong,” then learning to see our neighbors again without the costume of ideology.

This is not cynicism. It is Christian realism. Jesus did not trust Himself to the crowds because He knew what was in man. He knew the appetite for power would twist even “good policy” into coercion. He knew fear could turn worshipers into executioners. He knew that the devil’s offer, “all the kingdoms of the world if you will bow,” still tempts believers today. That is why He called us to a narrow road.

Constitutions, Laws, and the Kingdom That Outlasts Them

Some listeners want the constitutional angle. Even there, the ground is shaky. The federal charter lists enumerated powers. It does not list a police power to regulate every person’s movement under threat of death. But the deeper Christian point is prior to all constitutions. Even if a law allowed an immoral act, it would not cease to be immoral.

The early Christians didn’t need a bill of rights to love enemies, rescue the vulnerable, and refuse idolatry. They needed a Lord. We have the same Lord. Our public discipleship should look like it.

The Kingdom Answer: Neighbor Love With Skin On

If our loyalty is to the crucified King, our answer is not primarily a hot take. Our answer is a way of life. It looks like walking toward those who are hurting. It looks like letting the doctor check a pulse instead of blocking him with the threat of pepper spray. It looks like telling truth over team loyalty. It looks like Christians becoming the people who can be trusted in a crisis because they are too busy serving to score points.

It also looks like refusing to dehumanize the agents who pulled the trigger. That does not mean excusing evil. It means telling the truth about the act while refusing to hate the actor. It means praying for justice and for their repentance. It means knowing that the same training that crushed a conscience on a street has also numbed consciences in our pews.

The way forward is not complicated, but it is costly: lay down the idolatry of political saviors and take up the cross. Pray for the courage to refuse wicked orders at every level of society. Become a people who would rather lose a platform than lose our soul.

Scripture Trail for the Church Today

• Matthew 5–7: Jesus’ constitution for the Kingdom. Peacemakers. Mercy. Enemy-love. No exceptions for uniforms.

• Romans 12 before Romans 13: Love without hypocrisy. Bless persecutors. Overcome evil with good. Read Chapter 13 in the light of Chapter 12.

• Psalm 146: Do not put your trust in princes. Their plans perish. God guards the sojourner.

• John 4; Luke 10: Jesus walks through Samaria; the neighbor is the one who shows mercy.

Let Scripture reform the reflexes shaped by talk radio and campaign seasons. Let your imagination be drenched in the Kingdom, not the headlines.

Listen & Reflect

🎧 Listen: Anywhere you find your podcasts
💬 Ask: When you see a badge, do you change your moral standard? What does that reveal about your discipleship?
📖 Read: Matthew 5–7; Romans 12–13; Psalm 146; Luke 10.
🤝 Practice: This week, serve a neighbor with no questions asked. No status check. No proof. Just love that acts.

Highlights & Takeaways

• A badge does not create a new morality. Jesus does not grant exceptions for uniforms.

• If you defend the first shot, you still must explain the others. You cannot. The second and third shots indict the soul of our authority-worship.

• Milgram wasn’t a myth. Training often beats conscience. Discipleship must train the conscience to fear God more than men.

• “Tactically unwise” is not a synonym for “deserved death.” Stop shifting the target.

• Romans 13 does not cancel the Sermon on the Mount. The cross judges empire, not the other way around.

• “No King but Christ” means one standard of love for everyone—from the poor to the powerful.

🤝Connect with Larken ROSE:

• The Jones Plantation Film

  • Platforms: Available on Apple TV, Amazon Prime, Tubi, Xmou Play, The Roku Channel, PLEX 

• The Rose Channel

• Book: The Most Dangerous Superstition 

• YouTube

• Candles in the Dark

• Facebook

Episode Timestamps:

(00:00) Framing the question: murder or self-defense? Larken returns for “Swearing Sunday.” 

• Christian allegiance vs. state power.

• Moral frame; allegiance check

• Matthew 5–7; Romans 12

• murder vs self-defense; authority; “No King but Christ”

• Previous Episodes with Larken Rose:

• EP #83 The Cult of Statism with Larken Rose

• EP #91 Breaking Down the Jones Plantation Film with Larken Rose

• EP #134 Larken Rose on Immigration and Christian Values: Challenging the Border Fetish Brigade

(00:41) Banter and burden: 

• The week’s exhaustion and why it still matters to speak.

• Choosing faithfulness over comfort; stewardship of voice

• Jeremiah 20:9

• lament; courage; speak

(01:26) Why people cheer evil: authority myths and plantation logic.

• Authority-worship; compliance culture

• How team colors override conscience

• Milgram Experiments (1963)

• obedience; idolatry; “plantation logic”

• Jones Plantation Movie

(03:40) When evil shows itself, some finally wake up.

• Shock as moral catalyst

• Ephesians 5:11

• exposure; repentance; awakening

(07:01) COVID parallels: neighbors revealed their true loyalties.

• Crisis reveals discipleship

• Romans 12 through Romans 13

• compliance; conscience; neighbor-love

(10:00) Badges and gangs: why morality cannot change with uniforms.

• Uniforms ≠ new morals

• Luke 10; early church witness

• badge; uniform; consistency – one standard for everyone.

(13:00) Craig’s Memphis test: you won’t stop to check a badge when guns are in your face.

• First agent opens the door; second moves in front of the car.

• Threat perception; staged risk

• Use-of-force: imminence

(14:17) “That was murder.” 

• Why shots two and three indict the shooter.

• No imminent threat; lethal overreach

• Matthew 5:21; proportionality

• second shot; third shot; homicide

(16:20) The physician they turned away; the shooter who fled.

• Aid refusal; post-incident flight

• Luke 10 (duty of care)

• physician; pulse check; left scene

(17:40) “Few bad apples?” Where are the good apples denouncing murder.

• Institutional silence; complicity

• Proverbs 31:8–9

• accountability; culture; complicity

(20:00) “Have you not learned?” Obedience by threat is not freedom.

• Intimidation ≠ authority

• Acts 5:29

• coercion; threat; tyranny

(21:15) Milgram: training vs. conscience and why people excuse murder.

• Training overrides conscience

• Milgram Experiments (1963) obedience study

• obedience; conditioning; conscience

(24:13) No other gods: when Christians side with Caesar over Christ.

• State-worship vs Kingdom allegiance

• Exodus 20:3; Matthew 6:24

• idolatry; Caesar; worship

• Laws/titles don’t alter morality

• Sermon on the Mount synthesis

• legalism; morality; authority claims

(33:34) “Was it murder?” clarified.

• No threat posture; face shot

• Self-defense: imminence/necessity

• face shot; no danger; overkill

(34:29) Watch his feet.

• No movement = manufactured “threat”

• Video-analysis heuristic

• feet; staging; false threat

(41:17) Tactics vs. morals: unwise choices don’t justify cages or bullets.

• Prudence ≠ moral guilt

• Romans 12:17–21

• tactics; morals; prudence

(47:17) Bootlicking theology called out.

• Excusing abuse = state worship

• Psalm 146

• princes; loyalty; idolatry

(55:55) Constitutional limits & ICE.

• Enumerated powers; no general police power

• Federalist 45 (Madison) summary

• constitution; federal power; jurisdiction

(1:06:56) Prosecution theater.

• Sacrificial pawn; delay and forget

• Prosecutorial discretion patterns

• show trial; delay; memory

(1:10:04) Signs of moral progress.

• Public conscience awakening

• Culture-shift indicators

• outrage; repentance; awareness

(1:12:37) Keep saying stuff

• Encouragement; close; credits

• Community action; sharing

• keep talking; outro; next steps

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151. “I Follow Jesus:” Public Discipleship vs. Christian Nationalism with Deacon Gerri Endicott

This episode started with a small moment at a farmers market. It was Saturday, Craig was standing by his salsa when a woman smiled and said, “Craig?” She was Gerri Endicott.

She had just started listening and wanted to learn about the show and Christian anarchism. They laughed by the jars and swapped information. A few weeks later, that quick hello became this recorded conversation.

Meet Gerri

Gerri serves as an Episcopal deacon. She works a regular job and helps her church pay attention to the world outside its walls. She preaches. She teaches. She helps people show real mercy to real neighbors. She does not want the Bible turned into simple slogans. She believes Scripture should shape people to look like Jesus, not like political teams trying to win.

While they record, Gerri is getting ready to preach on Christ the King Sunday. In the Episcopal and Anglican calendar, that Sunday comes right before Advent. Not every church keeps it. In her parish, it works like a reset. It says what this project keeps saying: No King but Christ.

This is the story the episode tells: a chance meeting, a deeper talk, and a call to love Jesus more than flags and parties.

What a Deacon Is DOES

Gerri lives in the Memphis area and serves around Collierville while working a normal 9 to 5. A deacon helps a church turn outward. That means listening for the pain outside the doors and then going to meet it. It is less about a title and more about being present with people.

Gerri describes her week in simple words: show up where people hurt, carry the church’s prayers into the world, and carry the world’s pain back into the church’s prayers. That might mean preaching on Sunday and checking on a neighbor on Monday. It might mean helping leaders notice needs they missed and helping people meet those needs with quiet faithfulness.

As Gerri puts it, “A deacon turns the church outward. We preach. We teach. We send people to serve,” (04:30–05:10).

Her tone stays calm and hopeful. If you think ministry only means a stage and a microphone, this gives a bigger picture. A lot of the work is small and local: visiting, listening, connecting people, and reminding the church that Jesus is already at work on their street.

“Follower of Jesus,” Not a Brand

Gerri often does not start with, “I am a Christian.” She starts with, “I am a follower of Jesus.” The word “Christian” can carry baggage. People hear it and make guesses right away. Gerri is not hiding her faith. She is trying to make her loyalty clear.

She says it like this: “I want people to hear Jesus before they hear my politics,” (12:30–13:10).

They also remember the earliest Christians. They repented and believed. They loved enemies. They shared bread. They refused to say, “Caesar is lord.” The cross, not the sword, showed who they belonged to. That is the center Gerri wants people to meet first: Jesus in action, not a label that can mean many different things today.

Women in Ministry: Let Daughters Speak

Gerri talks about how her tradition got here. The Episcopal Church did not ordain women as priests until 1974. It was a slow change, with prayer and debate. She also points out something important: even though the Bible was written in a world led by men, it still shows strong and important women from start to finish.

Then she tells a real church moment. After a sermon on women in ministry, a retired military man stopped her at the door. He said, “My wife bought The Making of Biblical Womanhood by Beth Allison Barr,” and then added, “I’m almost through it and I have one thing to say, ‘we’d all be a hell of a lot better off if we just let women run things’.”

Craig brings it back to the gospel story: women were the first to proclaim the resurrection.

Craig says, “If it’s good enough for Jesus, I don’t know why we’re even talking about this anymore—why this is a debate.” (08:28–08:34)

The point is not to win an argument. The point is to honor the whole story and the good fruit it produces in real churches: voices used, gifts shared, neighbors served.

Christian Nationalism: Check the Fruit

Gerri also pushes back on a loud kind of “Christian” that looks like a rally. Crosses on flags. Enemies to crush. Cheers for violence. Gerri rejects it because the fruit does not look like Jesus. She says the people harmed most by this mix often include immigrants, the poor, and political opponents. If it harms them, it matters to Jesus, so it should matter to the church.

She makes a clear line: being thankful for your country is fine, but loyalty is different. Loyalty belongs to Jesus. When national identity becomes the center, the poor are ignored and enemies are hated. The Sermon on the Mount points another way.

Gerri says, “Jesus does not love America more than he loves anyone else. This is about following him,” (13:59–14:20).

Craig shares his own practice here. He reads 1 Samuel 8 and hears a warning about asking for a king. For Craig, not voting is one way to keep his loyalty clear. He does not demand others do the same. He is explaining a strict posture: No King but Christ.

A Liturgical Lens, Not a Test

Christ the King Sunday matters here. In Gerri’s Episcopal tradition, set readings and prayers shape worship. The Sunday before Advent announces one theme: Christ is King. Not the president. Not a party. Not “us.” Gerri is preparing to preach this, not as a political jab, but as a gentle reminder of who Christians are.

Not every church uses that calendar, and that is okay. The point is not copying a schedule. The point is remembering who holds our loyalty. In Gerri’s parish, the message is simple: be thankful for your place, and be loyal to Jesus.

Gerri says it clearly: “We do not bow to a government. We belong to Christ,” (39:56–40:20).

And even if you are not in a liturgical church, the idea still works. Any week can be a reset. Any table can become a place where the Kingdom shows up through bread, prayer, and love for neighbors.

The Big Story

Again and again, Craig and Gerri step back from “one verse fights” and tell the whole Bible story, from start to finish.

• Creation: God makes a good world and calls people very good.

• Israel (in the Bible, not a modern nation-state): God sets apart a family to bless neighbors, not crush them.

• Jesus: the clearest picture of God, washing feet, healing an enemy’s son, telling the truth even when it costs him.

• The church: small tables, open homes, shared bread.

• New creation: a future where tears are dried and weapons become tools for growing food.

When you read that story with Jesus in the center, the path gets clearer: love God, love your neighbor, welcome the stranger, bless people who hurt you, tell the truth, and keep your promises. Craig and Gerri also make it practical, like bringing a casserole to a widow, giving a ride to someone whose car broke down, staying calm online, or saying sorry face to face.

This kind of life does not feed the rage machine. It will not go viral. But that is the point. The Kingdom does not grow by outrage. It grows by presence, kept promises, and steady love that might look boring on camera, but looks holy in real life.

Gerri sums it up: “It is the whole arc. Love God. Love people. Take care of each other,” (22:11–23:15).

Nations and Nation-States

They also slow down to talk about words. In Scripture, “nations” often means “peoples.” It does not match today’s nation-states in a simple way. When we mix those up, people grab ancient commands and try to use them for modern borders and parties. Gerri calls for a slower reading: honor the text, learn the context, and keep Jesus at the center when you make public choices.

This helps keep Christians from treating one country as “God’s plan” and helps them treat strangers with the same mercy they want for themselves. It also keeps the church from turning into an enemy-making machine.

Tradition That Points Beyond Itself

Gerri respects her tradition: robes, music, and the lectionary. But she says these things are tools. They are not the treasure. Traditions do not define God. They should point to God and keep Jesus in the center.

Gerri says, “I honor my tradition, but it points me to God. It is not God,” (22:11–22:35).

She also likes the lectionary because it makes preachers deal with passages they did not pick. It helps a church avoid only talking about favorite topics, and it invites the whole story of Scripture to shape the year.

Borders, ICE, and Neighbor Love

They also touch immigration and the border. They agree that naming harm matters. People made in God’s image can get reduced to numbers and headlines. Gerri asks churches to speak plainly about dignity and to act locally: support a family, learn a name, offer help without strings, and resist words or policies that treat people like problems.

That steady neighbor love is how a parish shows loyalty to Jesus in public. It is not a slogan. It is a way of life.

Highlights and Takeaways

• A quick hello at a farmers market became a Kingdom conversation.

• Deacons help churches face outward and serve.

• Let daughters speak. The Body needs every gift.

• Christian nationalism is not the gospel. Check the fruit.

• Read the whole arc of the bible. Love God. Love neighbor. Practice mercy.

• Nations ≠ nation‑states; keep Jesus at the center of public choices.

• Faithfulness looks local: tables, casseroles, rides, and kept promises.

Listen, Reflect & Act

🎧 Listen. Ask Jesus to reset your loyalty to Him while the episode plays.
💬 Reflect. Where have you let the flag first pushed the cross to the side?

🦻Revisit. Matthew 5–7; Romans 12 (before Romans 13); Psalm 146; Revelation 5.
📖 Read: Read Gerri’s Sermon
🤝 Act. Serve someone this week with no strings. Pray for an enemy by name. Invite a neighbor to your table.

Episode Timestamps:

(00:00) Farmers market hello: How they met

• Peaches, name tags, a quick hello in Memphis; Gerri recognizes Craig.

• “Christian anarchism” comes up; they agree to talk more on the show.

• Sets the tone: ordinary place, Jesus‑centered conversation.

(02:00) Memphis roots & call to serve: Gerri’s context

• Collierville area; normal 9–5 job + local church service.

• Deacon = helper who turns the church outward (service > stage).

• Picture: visits, check‑ins, prayer, connecting needs to help.

• Carry the world’s pain into the church’s prayers (and back).

• Examples: rides, groceries, hallway prayers, “we didn’t forget you.”

(05:49) Scripture & strong women: Big story, not proof texts

• Bible written in a hard time for women, yet full of faithful daughters.

• Names matter: Mary Magdalene, Priscilla, Phoebe, Junia.

• Read the whole story, not one line pulled out.

(06:50) A changed mind: Book + sermon

• Retired soldier reads The Making of Biblical Womanhood (Beth Allison Barr).

• Tells Gerri: “We’d be better off if we let women run things.” (06:50–07:30)

• Book + sermon + fruit = “You’re right; let women preach/lead.”

(08:10) Easter’s first witnesses: Why this matters

• Women share the first news: “He is risen.”

• Craig asks: If that’s true, why is the pulpit still a debate?

• Pattern: trust the witnesses Jesus trusted. (Matt 28; John 20)

(12:30) “Follower of Jesus:”  Language that lowers walls

• Gerri starts with “I follow Jesus,” not the heavier label.

• Goal: meet a Person, not a brand or party.

• Marks of Jesus’ people: kind speech, open hands, kept promises.

(13:59) Loyalty & the Sermon on the Mount: Allegiance check

• Be thankful for your country; keep loyalty with Jesus.

• Beatitudes as public ethic: mercy, peacemaking, truth.

• Refuse rage-bait; love enemies. (Matthew 5–7)

(14:29) Taking Scripture seriously: How to read

• Don’t cherry‑pick; read in context with Jesus at the center.

• Look for fruit: love, joy, peace… not cruelty.

• Let hard texts teach us to serve, not to win.

(18:45) Christ the King (her church calendar): A yearly reset

• Episcopal/Anglican day before Advent; not every church observes it.

• Simple confession: Jesus is King; parties and leaders are not.

• Family practice: pray the Lord’s Prayer; ask, “Who can we serve?”

(22:11) The big story: Creation to new creation

• Creation → Israel → Jesus → Church → New Creation.

• Clear path: love God, love neighbor; keep your word; tell the truth.

• Ordinary acts: casseroles, rides, apologies, quiet hospital visits.

(24:31) Nations vs. countries: Words matter

• In Scripture, “nations” = “peoples,” not modern borders.

• Mixing terms warps reading and fuels bad politics.

• Keep Jesus at the center when making public choices.

(38:47) No new kings: Craig’s practice

• 1 Samuel 8: warning about asking for a king.

• Craig abstains from voting to keep his loyalty clear.

• Not a rule for all; an invitation to examine allegiance.

(39:56) Sermon preview: How Gerri will name it

• Parish message: grateful for place; loyal to Jesus.

• “We don’t bow to a government; we belong to Christ.” (39:56–40:20)

• Tone: gentle, pastoral, invitational.

• Copy of Gerri’s Sermon

(46:56) Borders, ICE, neighbor love: Dignity in action

• People are not headlines; learn names and needs.

• Local steps: diapers, bus passes, meals, rides, waiting‑room care.

• Speak carefully; resist words/policies that harm image‑bearers.

(48:00) Stay in touch: What’s next

• Reach Gerri through the show for dates and updates.

• More preaching ahead; keep the conversation open.

• Practice No King but Christ in small, steady ways.

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