No One Fit to Rule: Larken & Amanda Rose on Approaching Humanity (BONUS Episode)

Why do you stop at a red light, even when no one is watching?

Most people would say it's easy. It's just safe. It's just smart. But think about it a little longer. You didn't pick that rule. You didn't sit down and decide, all on your own, that this exact corner needed this exact rule. Someone else made that choice. And somewhere along the way, without even noticing, you agreed to follow it.

Now think about how many other rules work the same way.

We follow rules we never really looked at. We fear people we've never met, just because someone told us to. We say things like "the law" as if that phrase explains everything. But "the law" is really just a pile of choices other people made. We treat it like it's sacred, and most of the time we never stop to ask why.

Here's the strange part. A lot of us think that's just fine. We think someone has to be in charge. We think most people are too selfish or too foolish to make good choices on their own, so someone else needs to make the big decisions for us.

But where did that idea come from? Did you choose to believe it? Or did it get planted in you before you were even old enough to ask questions?

That question sits under this whole episode. It's not really about which political side is right. It's something much simpler, and much bigger: why do we keep believing that someone has to rule over us?

That question isn't just an idea in a book. It shows up in real moments, in real people's lives. 

This episode of The Bad Roman Podcast is a little different from most. Craig isn't talking with someone who slowly changed their mind about church and politics. He's talking with Larken Rose and Amanda Rose. They're two well-known voices in a small world of people who believe no human being should rule over another. They're getting ready for an event called Approaching Humanity in Sedona, Arizona. Larken isn't even a Christian. He says so right out loud, in his usual blunt way.

But what starts as a conversation about an upcoming event turns into something bigger. It becomes a dialogue on where our beliefs really come from, who put them there, and what it might feel like to finally notice.

What We Never Chose to Believe

Larken tells a story about a woman who once challenged him on speaking about a Bible verse. She asked if he was a Christian. He said no. She pushed back. If he's not a Christian, what gives him the right to talk about what the Bible means?

"I’m not," he said, "but I can read."

It's a funny line. But it's also a small earthquake. Hidden inside her question was an idea she probably never thought about: that only certain people, with the right badge or the right membership, are allowed to understand certain things. Larken didn't need a badge. He just needed the words in front of him and the will to actually look at them.

That idea runs through the whole episode. It's not about "here is the one correct answer." It's more like: what happens when we stop assuming we already know everything, and we actually take a real look?

Amanda tells a story that hits even harder. She wears a shirt to church. It shows Jesus being arrested by ICE agents. A few people compliment it without really thinking about what it means. But one woman can't move past it. She keeps a stiff smile and says, three separate times, that it concerns her. Amanda explains why she wears it: Jesus was from the Middle East. He didn't look like the people cheering on the raids. If he walked around today, some of the very people so sure he'd be on their side might be the ones putting him in handcuffs.

Nobody in that story changed their mind right away. That's not really the point. The point is the flinch. Something in that woman noticed a wall in her own mind, a wall between "people who get arrested" and "Jesus," that had never once been allowed to fall.

A lot of us are carrying walls just like that one. We just haven't seen our own shirt yet.

What Jesus Actually Refused

There's a story that people love to use to prove Jesus stayed out of politics, or even that he backed the people in charge. A group of religious leaders sends men to trap him. If Jesus says don't pay taxes to Rome, he's a troublemaker. If he says pay them, he looks like a friend of the soldiers crushing his own people.

Jesus asks for a coin. Whose face is stamped on it? Caesar's. So, Jesus says, give Caesar what belongs to Caesar. And give God what belongs to God.

Read fast, it sounds like Jesus is just being safe. Read slow, and it's not safe at all. Everyone listening that day knew something we've mostly forgotten: nothing really belonged to Caesar in the first place. His whole empire was built by taking things from other people. So when Jesus says "give God what's God's," he's not handing Caesar a slice of anything. He's quietly saying the whole pie was never Caesar's to begin with.

That's not a political policy. That's a trap turned right back on the people who set it. They walked away amazed, and they got nothing to use against him.

It still cost him everything. Not because he broke some rule. Because he refused to bow down to power just because power said he had to. Rome didn't kill Jesus because he stayed quiet about politics. It killed him because his kingdom worked by a totally different rulebook: mercy instead of control, serving instead of ruling, truth instead of the easy lie that some people are simply born to rule over others.

Earlier in his life, after Jesus fed a huge crowd with just a little food, the people tried to grab him and force him to be their king. He didn't take the deal. He didn't ask for smaller terms. He walked up a mountain by himself and let them figure out that this wasn't a game he was going to play.

Sit with that for a second. He was handed the chance to rule, a huge crowd, full stomachs, people ready to follow him anywhere, and he walked away.

You don't have to agree with everything Larken Rose believes to notice something. That same refusal sits under his main idea, too: that no human being has the right to rule another. Jesus didn't argue about which policy was best. He walked away from the mountain.

The Question Nobody Wants to Answer

Larken doesn't spend a lot of time telling people what to believe. His real project, the one behind his new book, Unbound, and behind the whole Approaching Humanity event, is smaller and stranger than that. He wants to know if people are actually living by the things they already say they believe.

"Are you being consistent with your own moral code?"

That's the whole challenge, in one line. Not "come believe what I believe." Just: does what you do match what you say is true?

Ask most people if it's wrong to steal from a neighbor, and they'll say of course it is. Ask if they've ever voted for a program that takes money from a neighbor who didn't want to give it, and something shifts. The answer gets longer. A "well" creeps in. A "we" creeps in too.

Amanda talks about running a class built around watching that shift happen, over and over. They'd bring people in, friends, family, even strangers paid fifty dollars for fifteen minutes of their time, and ask a few careful questions. Every single time, the same pattern showed up.

"They don't know what they don't know. It's an actual blind spot."

People don't dodge the question because they're lying. They dodge because part of them senses a hole in the floor and doesn't want to look down. It's scary to admit there's a whole area of your own beliefs you never really chose, and never really checked.

Larken has his own way of describing what happens when we skip that check, and just let someone else decide for us without ever noticing.

"They don't even recognize the chains wrapped around their own brains."

It would be easy to think this is only about politics. It isn't. It's really a spiritual question wearing political clothes. Every faith that takes the idea of repentance seriously is describing the same thing: waking up to a chain you didn't even know was there, and choosing, on purpose, to take it off. The Bad Roman Project has a phrase for this: "no king but Christ." Larken, starting from a totally different place, calls it noticing the blind spot. Different words. A strangely similar discovery.

Different Roads, Same Clearing

What makes Approaching Humanity interesting isn't that every speaker agrees. They don't. But they all ended up in almost the same place anyway.

There's David Hathaway, a real sheriff, someone most people would expect to defend "the system" without question. Instead, Craig says Hathaway ran for the job for one main reason: he didn't want a tyrant sitting in that office. He's not there to praise police work. He's watched what happens when power has no limits, and decided he'd rather stand in that door himself than let someone worse walk through it.

There's Patrick Smith, who took the opposite road from most guests on this show by leaving Christianity and becoming an atheist. From a completely different direction, he still landed on the same refusal to bow down to the state that Craig found from inside his own faith.

There's Brittany, a homeschooling mom and comedian. Her whole talk is built around one simple idea: kids are people. Not animals to be trained. Not lumps of clay to be shaped into perfect obedience. People, with their own growing sense of right and wrong, the very same thing every other speaker at this event is trying to protect in the grown-ups in the room.

There's Rebecca Anzini, who once watched someone build a so-called "freedom community" while quietly running it like a cult. She learned the hard way that the words "freedom" and "liberty" can be worn like a mask, hiding the exact same hunger for control they claim to fight against.

None of them needed the same books or the same prayers to see it. They just needed to pay close enough attention to their own lives for the chains to become visible. As Amanda puts it, nobody set out to end up somewhere so unfamiliar. They were just thinking things through, one honest step at a time, until one day they looked up and asked, "How did I get here?"

That's not really about ideas or politics. That's what a real change of heart looks like, in whatever words a person has to describe it.

Larken's hope for the event isn't that everyone leaves agreeing on doctrine or economics or theology.

"I want everybody to be themselves, unbound by weird manipulations and lies."

You don't have to agree with his conclusions to notice that this sounds a lot like what Jesus wanted too. Not a room full of people who all think and act exactly alike. People who are finally free enough to be exactly who they were made to be.

Approaching Humanity

The name of the event says it all. Approaching Humanity. Not approaching a new law. Not approaching a political party. Not approaching AI for president. Humanity, the thing we lose every time we hand our conscience over to someone else and let them decide who deserves kindness and who deserves suspicion.

Amanda and Larken joke through most of the episode. Salsa. Arizona heat. Hot peppers. There's even an old bit about a group of friends debating whether to use a powerful, dangerous ring "for good" instead of just destroying it. It's funny because it's so backwards, you don't gather people together to talk about breaking free from control, and then hand the ring right back to somebody at the end. But the joke has a real point behind it. So many movements built around freedom quietly end up rebuilding the very throne they said they wanted to tear down. Just give me the ring. I'll use it the right way. Put me in charge. I'll fix it this time.

Jesus was offered that same kind of deal. Once on a mountain, after he fed thousands of people with almost nothing. Once again out in the wilderness, before his work had even started. Both times, he said no. Not because power itself is evil, but because his kingdom was never going to be built that way. Mercy doesn't grow bigger by force. Truth doesn't need an army to protect it. Love for your neighbor falls apart the second you try to force someone else into it at gunpoint, no matter how good your reasons sound.

That's the humanity this event wants people to walk toward. Not a better system. Not a stronger fence around the "right" kind of freedom. Just people, finally taking an honest look at the chains they never chose to wear, willing to sit with how uncomfortable that is, instead of smiling through it the way that woman smiled through Amanda's shirt.

Craig doesn't need Larken to become a Christian for this conversation to matter. He needs him to keep asking the question neither of them can fully escape: is there really any person on this earth fit to rule over another? Jesus never answered that question with a new law or a new policy. He answered it by walking away from a crown. By washing the feet of the very men who would abandon him by morning. By dying rather than pretend that any earthly power, however much it borrowed religious words, deserved his loyalty more than the God he called Father.

"No king but Christ" was never meant to end an argument. It's an invitation to keep asking who you've really been listening to your whole life, and to notice, maybe for the first time, that you were always free to stop.

Guest Bio

Larken Rose has spent over two decades making the same simple, uncomfortable argument: no human being has the right to rule another. He's the author of The Most Dangerous Superstition, the novel The Iron Web, and creator/co-writer of The Jones Plantation (novel and film). His new book, Approaching Humanity, releases alongside the live event of the same name. He also created Candles in the Dark, a seminar that teaches people how to talk to friends and family about authority without turning it into a fight. Larken isn't a Christian — he says so plainly in this episode — but he and Craig keep landing in the same place anyway.

Amanda Rose is Larken's wife and partner in both life and work. A voluntaryist since 2012, she's a writer and public speaker who has appeared at Anarchapulco, Anarchovegas, and Anarchizona, and she co-hosts The Rose Channel alongside Larken.

Together, Larken and Amanda are hosting Approaching Humanity, a full-day event and book launch on Saturday, July 18, 2026, at the Sedona Performing Arts Center in Sedona, Arizona.

Links

• The Rose Channel: therosechannel.com

• Larken Rose's personal site: larkenrose.com

• Candles in the Dark seminar: attendcandles.com

• Larken on X: x.com/larken_rose

• Larken on YouTube: youtube.com/user/LarkenRose

• Approaching Humanity event tickets: therosechannel.com/humanity

• Approaching Humanity pre-order the book: therosechannel.com/humanitybook

Also Mentioned in This Episode (Approaching Humanity Speakers)

• Sheriff David Hathaway: Sheriff of Santa Cruz County, Arizona; previously featured on The Bad Roman Podcast, Episode 53, “Love at the Border with Sheriff David Hathaway”

• Jason Bassler: co-founder of The Free Thought Project and founder of Police the Police

• Patrick Smith: host of Disenthrall

• Mark Maresca: host of The White Pillbox

• Carey Wedler: voluntaryist content creator; former editor-in-chief of Anti-Media

• Derrick Broze:  journalist, author, and founder of The Conscious Resistance Network

• James Corbett: independent journalist, The Corbett Report, joining remotely from Japan

• Rebecca Anzini: speaker on the hidden dangers inside “freedom-minded” intentional communities

• Brittany: homeschooling mother, comedian, and past cast member of The Jones Plantation

Highlights & Takeaways

• We often follow beliefs we never really chose. 

• Most of us are shaped by rules, fears, and loyalties we picked up along the way, and we rarely stop to notice the difference.

• Being consistent shows what we actually believe. 

• Larken's big challenge isn't "believe what I believe." It's "does what you do match what you say you believe?"

• Jesus turned down power more than once. 

• Both on the mountain after feeding the crowd, and later before Pilate, Jesus refused to build his kingdom through force.

• "Give unto Caesar" is not a blank check for obedience. It's actually a trap turned back on the people who set it, built on the truth that nothing ever really belonged to Caesar at all.

• Different starting points can still lead to the same place. 

• A sheriff, an atheist, a homeschooling mom, and a Christian podcast host can all land on the same idea, that no one has the right to rule over another person, even coming from totally different directions.

• Discomfort is often a sign that something true is being noticed. 

• The people in this episode who flinched or froze or smiled too hard weren't bad people. They were standing at the edge of something they didn't know was there.

• Even freedom movements can rebuild the very thing they meant to tear down. 

• The temptation to say "just let me hold the power, I'll use it responsibly" shows up almost everywhere, even inside movements built to fight against it.

Listen

Listen for how many different words are used in this episode to describe the exact same discovery, "unbound," "the blind spot," "no king but Christ," and notice how closely they line up.

Reflect

Think of one belief you've never really chosen, something you just picked up along the way. What would it cost you to take an honest look at it?

Read

Read Matthew 22:15–22, John 6:14–15, and John 18:33–37. Notice what Jesus turns down in each story, and what he offers instead.

Practice

Try Larken's question on one belief you hold strongly: are you really being consistent with it? Or have you carved out a quiet little exception for the parts that are inconvenient?

Episode Timestamps

(00:00) Announcing Approaching Humanity

• Event details: Sedona, Arizona, July 18th

• Larken Rose returns to the show

• What this bonus episode is about

(02:02) Who Actually Shows Up

• Why the Rose Channel audience spans every belief system

• Labels versus consistency

• Craig on discovering The Most Dangerous Superstition

(05:27) Faith, Atheism, and Getting Shut Out

• Being sidelined by atheist anarchist circles for having faith

• Is any man fit to rule another?

• The question underneath every political argument

(09:24) The Core Challenge

• Are you consistent with your own moral code?

• Amanda's shirt: Jesus arrested by ICE

• A wall most people don't know they've built

(13:10) Renaming the Book

• Minds nobody knows are bound

• Why “Unbound” almost became the title

• What being unbound actually means

(15:30) Rereading “Give Unto Caesar”

• A trap sprung on the people who set it

• Two favorite memes: the cross, and “let the state do it”

• Render unto Caesar as admitting who you belong to

(18:52) The God Nobody Names

• “Government is the God they actually believe in”

• Worshipping Babylon without noticing

• The void: what people don't know they don't know

(23:06) Candles in the Dark

• The seminar built to change minds without arguing

• The $50 test for cognitive dissonance

• Craig's own uncomfortable awakening

(25:55) Why Approaching Humanity Brings Together So Many Beliefs

• Different starting points, same discovery

• Meet the speakers: Sheriff David Hathaway

• Jason Bassler of The Free Thought Project

(33:22) Meet More of the Speakers

• Brittany on homeschooling and “children are people”

• Pre-recorded talks from Carey Wedler and Derrick Broze

• Patrick Smith of Disenthrall

(36:30) Even More Speakers

• Mark Maresca and The White Pillbox

• Rebecca Anzini on a “freedom community” that hid a tyrant

• James Corbett joining remotely from Japan

(41:04) Why the Event Won't Hand the Ring Back

• “Give me the ring of power”

• The Boromir bit, freedom events that quietly rebuild the throne

• Building something all the way consistent

(48:45) Getting to Sedona

• Larken's last planned in-person event

• Tickets, the book, and the July 18th release

• Closing thoughts

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Related Episodes

Related Blog Post

164. Breaking Free from Political Christianity: Rediscovering the Gospel Beyond Partisan Faith with Brian Drinkwine

What happens when following Jesus starts pulling us away from the politics that once made us feel safe?

The change can be lonely. Friends may stop calling. Church conversations may grow tense. People who once praised our faith may suddenly wonder if we have lost it.

Brian Drinkwine knows that road.

He returns to The Bad Roman Project to discuss his new book, Kingdom Over Empire: Recovering the Gospel from Political Captivity. The book grows out of Brian’s own journey from political certainty toward a deeper allegiance to Jesus. It is not a guide for switching parties. It is a call to notice how political power forms us, and to recover the gospel from its grip.

Brian once believed that America needed the right Christians in office. He listened to conservative talk radio, protested taxes, feared Democratic leaders, and looked to elections for hope. He loved Jesus, but the empire had quietly taught him what to fear, whom to distrust, and what victory should look like.

Then he began reading the teachings of Jesus differently.

The Kingdom of God was not a religious decoration placed on top of American politics. Jesus was not offering spiritual support for one tribe. He was announcing another Kingdom, another King, and another way to live.

That discovery became the heart of Brian’s book, and the heart of this episode.

A Book Born from Political Captivity

Kingdom Over Empire is not written by someone throwing rocks from outside the church.

Brian writes as someone who lived inside political Christianity, believed its promises, and felt its fears. He remembers supporting John McCain and Sarah Palin in 2008 because he believed they could help restore America as a Christian nation.

When Barack Obama won, Brian sat alone in his living room and cried.

He thought the country was finished.

Years later, that memory helped him see where his hope had been placed. He had treated the loss of an election almost like the loss of the gospel.

“It never occurred to me at the time to question whether our country being over or not even matters.”

— Brian Drinkwine, 07:45

That is not a claim that nations or policies never matter. It is a question about order.

What matters most?

If our preferred country, party, or leader falls, is Jesus still Lord? If the answer is yes, then why do elections sometimes have more control over our peace than the risen Christ?

Brian’s book is an attempt to name that tension and help Christians come home to Jesus.

The Political Smoothie We Were Handed

Brian uses the word syncretism to describe what happens when two opposing beliefs are mixed together.

The word may sound academic. The picture Brian gives is not.

He jokes about making a “Christian Republican smoothie.” We could make a Democratic version too. Add a few Bible verses, a flag, a favorite politician, some fear about the other side, and blend until nobody can tell where Christianity ends and party loyalty begins.

Many of us drank that smoothie without knowing what was in it.

We assumed Christians voted a certain way. We treated political opponents as spiritual threats. We learned which news sources good Christians watched and which people could not be trusted.

Our party became part of our identity.

But Brian argues that Jesus does not belong to the right, the left, or a polite middle.

“We take the narrow path. We’re going a different way entirely.”

— Brian Drinkwine, 10:10

The Kingdom is not a compromise between two empires. It is a different political reality under a crucified King.

The Main Question of Kingdom Over Empire

Brian’s book asks us to look deeper than policies and elections.

Before we decide how to vote, what cause to support, or which political claim to repeat, something has already happened to us.

We have been formed.

Campaigns, parties, algorithms, news channels, churches, and influencers teach us what to fear. They shape our view of safety. They tell us who threatens our family and who can rescue us.

“The real crisis that’s facing the church isn’t political opposition, but political formation.”

— Brian Drinkwine, 12:37

This is the book’s central warning.

Empire does not only want our vote. It wants to disciple us.

It wants our attention, loyalty, money, imagination, and anger. It wants to shape us into people who believe that control is the only path forward and that winning excuses almost anything.

Brian organizes the book around six ways empire does this: fear, seduction, winning, certainty, enemies, and pressure.

Fear, Seduction, and the Promise of Safety

Fear turns threats into teachers.

When fear takes over, we stop asking, “What does faithfulness to Jesus require?” We begin asking, “What must we do to survive?”

That change may seem small, but it opens the door to cruelty. Mercy begins to look weak. Empathy feels dangerous. Violence becomes protection.

Seduction works from the other side.

Empire offers hope, comfort, security, prosperity, and influence. It whispers that everything will be better once our people are in control.

Give us your vote.

Give us your loyalty.

Defend us when we fail.

We will protect your way of life.

The offer sounds like salvation because that is what it is trying to replace.

Winning, Certainty, and Control

Empire also forms us through winning.

Brian says the logic of winning replaces the question “Is it faithful?” with “Does it work?”

That is how Christians begin excusing what they once condemned. A dishonest leader becomes acceptable because he gets results. Cruel policies become necessary because the stakes are too high. Integrity becomes a luxury we cannot afford.

But Jesus did not tell His disciples to win at all costs.

He told them to take up a cross.

Certainty adds another layer. It lets us trade trust for control while calling the trade “conviction.”

Real trust leaves room for mystery. It admits that we do not control history, elections, or tomorrow. Certainty demands that we know exactly who the good people are, who the bad people are, and what must be done to them.

The Kingdom calls us to trust Jesus.

Empire offers the illusion that we can control everything ourselves.

Enemies, Pressure, and the Loss of Empathy

Empire needs enemies.

It cannot keep people afraid without a threat. It cannot demand loyalty without someone to blame. It cannot justify violence without first teaching us to stop seeing certain people as human.

Brian says empire can even make contempt feel like discernment.

“You can’t go kill somebody if you’re empathetic with them.”

— Brian Drinkwine, 15:00

That sentence cuts through a great deal of political noise.

Empathy does not mean pretending harmful ideas are harmless. It means remembering that the person in front of us bears the image of God.

Pressure is the sixth tool.

When the world feels chaotic, political tribes demand loyalty. Questioning the group may cost relationships, church standing, employment, or social belonging.

People we love may cut us off because we no longer repeat the approved political lines.

That is not an accident. Pressure teaches us that belonging depends on obedience to the tribe.

Faith as Allegiance to a Crucified King

Brian does not write Kingdom Over Empire to tell Christians to disappear from public life or find a better political party.

He wants to recover the New Testament meaning of faith.

Faith is not only agreeing with religious ideas. It is trust, faithfulness, and allegiance.

Brian describes it as an

“undivided allegiance to a crucified King whose Kingdom cannot be advanced by the tools of empire.” —Brian Drinkwine, 16:45

That means the method matters.

We cannot build a Kingdom of truth with lies.

We cannot build a Kingdom of mercy with cruelty.

We cannot build a Kingdom of peace by killing our enemies.

We cannot build a Kingdom of voluntary love through coercion.

Jesus does not need Caesar’s sword to complete His mission.

Jesus Was Not Joking About Enemy-Love

The chapter on enemies was one of the hardest parts of the book for Brian to write.

Enemy-love sounds beautiful until the enemy is real.

It is easy to pray for an annoying coworker. It is harder to love someone we believe threatens our family, religion, nation, or safety.

Yet Jesus gave this command in a world of soldiers, occupation, public torture, and political violence.

“When Jesus tells us to love our enemies, He’s not speaking hyperbolically.”

— Brian Drinkwine, 18:55

Jesus showed us enemy-love while hanging on a Roman cross.

He did not merely refuse revenge. He prayed for the people killing Him.

Brian contrasts that call with the version of cross-bearing he learned at youth camp. Taking up the cross meant not drinking, smoking, or cussing. It meant wearing a Christian shirt and putting a fish on the car.

Those choices may be fine, but they are not the full weight of the cross.

The cross is where love refuses to become hatred under pressure.

When an Online Opponent Became a Friend

Brian shares one of the book’s ideas through a real relationship.

A man repeatedly challenged him online, leaving combative comments and sending argumentative messages. Brian could have blocked him and moved on.

Instead, he asked, “Tell me who you are.”

The man was a missionary serving in Africa.

Brian began supporting him, praying for him, and talking with him. Their disagreement did not vanish, but the enemy became a person.

The missionary carried a deep fear about Muslim influence in America. As they talked, Brian saw all six tools of empire at work: fear, a named enemy, certainty, political seduction, pressure, and a demand to win.

Brian also had to apply his own book to himself.

“I’m always in process. Everything I wrote about in my book…is something that I feel like I’m actually experiencing. It’s not theoretical.”

— Brian Drinkwine, 23:20

That honesty matters.

Kingdom Over Empire is not written from a mountaintop by someone who has finished the journey. It is written from the road.

When Party Loyalty Overrides Jesus

Brian and Craig spend the next part of the conversation testing the book’s ideas against present political life.

Brian is careful not to declare that politically loyal Christians are not saved. He knows sincere followers of Jesus on both sides.

The deeper question is about reflexes.

What happens when our party does something that clearly clashes with Jesus?

Do we grieve?

Do we speak honestly?

Or do we rush to explain why this case is different?

“That’s where you’ve been compromised.”

— Brian Drinkwine, 29:49

They talk about immigration, political fear, government cuts, foreign aid, children suffering, and the way parties turn vulnerable people into threats.

The concern is larger than one program or policy. It is about what happens to our hearts.

When real people suffer, can we still see them?

Or has loyalty to our side made us numb?

Brian says he did not move from Republican to Democrat. He went from Republican to “nope.”

His goal is not to baptize another party. His goal is to ask why followers of Jesus can overlook suffering when their preferred leaders cause it.

Remembering the Poor

Brian reflects on how his political formation shaped the way he viewed poor and marginalized people.

He had been trained to see people in need as irresponsible, dangerous, or undeserving. He later compared that formation with the deep concern for the poor found throughout the Hebrew Scriptures and the teachings of Jesus.

The difference was hard to ignore.

“I was not being formed in the ways of Jesus. I was being formed by empire.”

— Brian Drinkwine, 42:22

Political formation had not only changed his opinions. It had changed the kind of person he was becoming.

Eventually, even cruelty could be called love.

We may tell someone we are only “speaking truth,” when we are really enjoying the chance to be mean.

Brian puts it more simply:

“In reality, I’m just being a punk.”

— Brian Drinkwine, 42:45

That may be the least academic line in the episode. It may also be one of the most useful.

If our truth does not carry the character of Jesus, we should stop and ask who is really forming us.

The Social Cost of Coming Home to Jesus

The opening of Brian’s book includes a character named Jeffrey.

Jeffrey is a composite of three people from Brian’s life. Each relationship changed as Brian’s understanding of Jesus, empire, and the Kingdom changed.

Brian does not blame them for noticing the change.

He was changing.

But the change threatened more than political opinions. It threatened social networks, shared language, and a whole way of understanding the world.

Leaving political allegiance can feel like leaving a family.

The loss is real.

Brian describes meetings over coffee or lunch where friends quietly made it clear that the relationship could not continue in the same way.

“You lose a person you love…to wanting to follow Jesus more faithfully.”

— Brian Drinkwine, 48:10

Political deconstruction is not only about ideas. It can bring grief, isolation, and confusion.

That is why people need community. They need to know they are not crazy. They need others who understand what it feels like to choose Kingdom over empire and lose something along the way.

Image-Bearers Are Not Collateral Damage

Craig brings the discussion back to a simple truth.

Every person being discussed in our political arguments is created by God.

Immigrants, Muslims, political opponents, people in poverty, victims of war, and people caught in systems we barely understand are not categories. They are image-bearers.

Following Jesus may become uncomfortable when we refuse to overlook harm simply because our side caused it.

Comfort is not the goal.

Faithfulness is.

That discomfort also shaped the response to Brian’s earlier viral post about Charlie Kirk. The post brought a wave of messages and changed Brian’s daily life. It also became the subject of Brian’s previous appearance on The Bad Roman Project.

The response showed how hungry many Christians are for language that names the uneasy mix of Christianity, nationalism, celebrity, and political power.

The new book gives that unease a larger framework.

When the Cross Became a Weapon

The second half of the episode turns toward Constantine, one of the book’s major historical examples.

Before Constantine, Christians existed as a persecuted and often marginalized people within the Roman Empire. The movement grew through households, relationships, witness, sacrifice, and care.

Then the relationship changed.

Constantine claimed to see a vision of the cross before the Battle of the Milvian Bridge. His soldiers placed the Chi-Rho symbol on their shields and entered battle under a Christian sign.

The cross, once a symbol of Rome killing its enemies, became a banner carried by soldiers killing in Christ’s name.

Brian calls it a stunning reversal.

“The thing that we take to represent ourselves being willing to die [became] the thing that we put on our shields so that we can go in and kill other people.”

— Brian Drinkwine, 58:00

The church gained legal standing, money, influence, and safety.

It also became tied to the machinery of empire.

Bishops received privilege. Church leaders gained access. Allegiance to Rome became more useful, and eventually more necessary.

The persecuted faith became the favored faith.

That bargain still echoes.

Constantine Did Not Invent Empire, He Co-opted the Church

Brian does not claim that empire began with Constantine.

Rome was already Rome.

The important change was that the empire learned to use Christianity.

The church did not need to be destroyed if it could be absorbed. The cross did not need to disappear if it could be placed on a shield. Jesus did not need to be denied if His name could be used to bless conquest.

That may be the more dangerous form of captivity.

Open persecution makes the conflict clear.

Political favor makes compromise feel like success.

Brian and Craig ask whether the same pattern appears in American Christianity. When pastors flatter rulers, excuse conduct they once condemned, or preach national power while ignoring Jesus, has the church gained influence, or has it been captured?

Seven Mountains and a Gospel of Domination

Brian then tells a story that becomes another major part of the book.

Years ago, he attended a Christian gathering where Lance Wallnau taught the Seven Mountains Mandate.

The teaching says Christians must take control of major areas of culture, including government, education, business, media, family, religion, and the arts.

At the time, Brian accepted it. He even brought the teaching back to his own ministry.

Now he sees it differently.

The Seven Mountains Mandate teaches Christians to climb, capture, and control culture.

Jesus did not climb a mountain to dominate His enemies.

He went to a cross.

Brian calls the mandate an anti-gospel because it replaces cruciform faithfulness with power and control.

“He didn’t go climb the mountain and show His dominance. He went to a cross.”

— Brian Drinkwine, 1:03:35

The contrast could not be sharper.

One path seeks the highest seat.

The other washes feet.

Cyrus, Trump, and the Political Loophole

The episode closes with one of the book’s strongest biblical challenges.

Lance Wallnau helped popularize the claim that Donald Trump was a modern Cyrus. In Scripture, Cyrus was a pagan ruler who helped release the Jewish people.

The comparison allowed many Christians to say that a leader’s character did not matter. God could use an immoral man to get the right political results.

Integrity became expendable.

Winning became the proof of faithfulness.

Brian asks whether Christians chose the wrong biblical king.

What if the better comparison is not Cyrus, but Nebuchadnezzar?

Nebuchadnezzar did not only conquer through violence. He brought Israel’s brightest people into his court. He gave them education, status, new names, new clothes, and access to power.

He offered influence in exchange for identity.

Brian describes it as

“proximity to power in exchange for an almost imperceptible surrender of identity.”

— Brian Drinkwine, 1:06:00

Babylon did not need to erase the faith of God’s people.

It only needed to make Babylon feel like home.

That is the final warning of Kingdom Over Empire.

Political captivity does not always begin with a threat.

Sometimes it begins with an invitation to the table.

Recovering the Gospel

Brian’s book is not simply a complaint about politics.

It is an invitation to recover something.

To recover faith as allegiance to Jesus.

To recover enemy-love as a real command.

To recover the cross as the opposite of domination.

To recover compassion for people our parties teach us to fear.

To recover a church that does not need state power to be faithful.

The path out of political captivity may cost us certainty, status, and even relationships.

But it gives us back the freedom to see Jesus clearly.

That is a trade worth making.

🤝Connect with Brian🤝

• Kingdom Over Empire: Recovering the Gospel from Political Captivity

  • Also available through Amazon and other book retailers

• Email: brian@briandrinkwine.com

• Website: https://briandrinkwine.com/

• Linkedin

• X

• Facebook

• Instagram 

• Ministry at Breakthrough Church

Highlights & Takeaways

• Brian’s new book is a recovery project. Kingdom Over Empire helps Christians recognize political formation and return to allegiance to Jesus.

• Empire disciples before it governs. Fear, seduction, winning, certainty, enemies, and pressure shape us before policy debates begin.

• Political compromise often appears as a reflex. When our party contradicts Jesus and we immediately defend it, our allegiance has been exposed.

• The cross cannot be used to bless domination. Constantine’s fusion of Christianity and military power changed how the gospel was practiced and imagined.

• Leaving political identity carries a social cost. Friends, churches, and communities may pull away when we question shared loyalties.

• The poor and marginalized reveal our formation. Our treatment of vulnerable people shows whether Jesus or empire has shaped our hearts.

• Seven Mountains teaching reverses the way of Christ. Jesus did not conquer culture from the top; He served and suffered from below.

• Babylon often assimilates before it attacks. Access, praise, and political influence can slowly replace Christian identity.

Listen

Listen for the six tools Brian develops in Kingdom Over Empire: fear, seduction, winning, certainty, enemies, and pressure. Notice how they return throughout the whole conversation.

Reflect

When your political side acts against the teachings of Jesus, what is your first response? Grief, honesty, silence, or defense?

Read

Read Matthew 5–7, Matthew 20:20–28, Daniel 1–3, and the crucifixion story in Matthew 27. Compare the politics of domination with the politics of the cross.

Practice

Choose one person or group your political tribe has taught you to fear. Learn a name, hear a story, and practice seeing an image-bearer before seeing a label.

Episode Timestamps:

(00:00) Introducing Kingdom Over Empire

• Brian’s new book and personal journey

• Political faith, loneliness, and reassurance

• From Christian nationalism toward Jesus

(05:30) A Crisis of Hope and Identity

• Election-night despair and misplaced hope

• When politics feels like salvation

• Reordering what matters most

(09:30) How Empire Disciples Us

• Jesus as King beyond party categories

• Political formation before policy

• Fear, seduction, winning, certainty, enemies, pressure

(18:50) Enemy-Love and the Way of the Cross

• Jesus’ command without political loopholes

• Cross-bearing beyond Christian branding

• Online conflict transformed through relationship

(24:30) Winning, Certainty, and Control

• Results over faithfulness

• Certainty as a substitute for trust

• The illusion of control in political life

(28:45) When Party Loyalty Overrides Jesus

• Defending a party against clear Christian teaching

• Immigration, aid cuts, poverty, and political enemies

• Compassion numbed by tribal allegiance

(36:30) Remembering the Poor and the Marginalized

• Formation that reshapes how we see people in need

• Biblical concern for the vulnerable

• When truth-telling becomes cruelty

(43:49) The Cost of Leaving Political Identity

• Friendship loss and Brian’s composite character “Jeffrey”

• Social belonging, worldview, and political deconstruction

• Image-bearers, discomfort, and the Charlie Kirk response

(49:30) Image-Bearers Over Political Categories

• Seeing people beyond labels and tribes

• Discomfort as a sign of faithfulness

• Compassion in a polarized world

(53:25) Constantine and the Co-opted Cross

• Milvian Bridge and Christian symbols in battle

• Persecuted church becoming state-favored faith

• Cross of self-sacrifice turned into military power

(57:45) When the Church Gains Power

• Influence, privilege, and compromise

• Empire absorbing rather than opposing the church

• The danger of political favor

(1:01:10) Seven Mountains, Cyrus, and Political Power

• Lance Wallnau and cultural domination

• Seven Mountains teaching as an anti-gospel

• Trump as Cyrus and integrity made expendable

(1:05:25) Nebuchadnezzar and Assimilation into Babylon

• Access to power in exchange for identity

• Daniel’s resistance as the exception

• Political influence as a tool of captivity

(1:07:45) Assimilation and the Subtle Loss of Identity

• Babylon’s strategy of comfort and access

• When empire feels like home

• The slow surrender of allegiance

(1:09:40) Finding and Sharing the Book

---

Support The Bad Roman Project through Spotfund. Donations above production costs go to local charities in Memphis, Tennessee.

You can also Salsa the Love and share the episode, everything helps spread the message of Jesus over empire. Faithfulness over winning. Neighbor-love over coercion.

Thanks for being here, and No King but Christ!

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163. Faith, Politics, & the War Within: Allegiance, Grace & Addiction with Josif Wright

What happens when the beliefs we were handed no longer look like Jesus?

Maybe we were taught that America was God’s special nation. Maybe we were told that supporting war was patriotic, voting was a Christian duty, and questioning a pastor showed weak faith. Then one day, we opened the Gospels and noticed something strange: Jesus did not sound much like the system built in His name.

Josif Wright knows that feeling. He is a public-school teacher, longtime coach, hospice chaplain, former youth minister, and church speaker. He has spent years helping young people think, grieving with families, and asking hard questions about what Christians have been taught. He is also the author of The War Within: My Story, a father’s account of his son Ryan’s long struggle with addiction.

At first, Christian nationalism and addiction may sound like two separate subjects. Yet the same thread runs through both parts of this conversation: our desire to control people.

The state controls through laws, fear, taxes, borders, and violence. Religious leaders may control through shame and claims of unquestionable authority. Families facing addiction may try to control a loved one because they are scared to death of losing them.

But Jesus shows us another way. Truth without coercion. Grace without denial. Love that stays close without trying to play God.

“Don’t Trust the Government and Be Kind to People”

Josif teaches Jobs for America’s Graduates, or JAG. There is a curriculum, but no single textbook. That gives him room to discuss work, current events, faith, and life with his students.

After one test, Josif asked his class what they had learned so far. One senior wrote:

“Don’t trust the government and be kind to people.” — Student response, around 04:25

That is a pretty strong report card.

The line is funny, but it also gets close to the heart of this episode. Government asks us to believe that force will keep us safe. Jesus asks us to love our neighbors. Empire teaches suspicion. Christ teaches mercy.

Josif’s classroom sometimes turns into a kind of group therapy session. His students ask why people are being bombed. They question the stories adults have handed them. Josif does not demand that they copy his answers. He wants them to think.

That may be one of the most loving things a teacher, or a pastor, can do.

When Questions Become an Act of Faith

Josif’s change did not happen in one dramatic moment. One question led to another.

He began looking again at teachings about tithing, women in ministry, Israel, government, and Romans 13. The more he studied, the more he wondered how much of his old certainty had come from Scripture and how much had come from people with microphones.

He now tells both his students and his church congregation to do their own research. Do not accept a claim just because it comes from a pulpit, a podcast, or a person with a title.

“God wants us to think and ask questions,” Josif says.

God can handle those questions. The harder question may be whether we can handle the answers.

Real faith does not need us to hide from truth. It does not fall apart when we examine it. Sometimes asking better questions is how we clear away the rubble and find Jesus again.

God Is Pro-People

The hardest part of Christian nationalism may be the way it divides human beings into teams.

We are told that one nation is righteous, another nation is evil, and the people living under each flag somehow inherit those labels. Once we accept that story, violence becomes easy to excuse. Dead children become “collateral damage.” Grieving parents become members of the wrong group.

Josif offers a simpler answer:

“I’m not pro-Israel, pro-Palestine. I think God is pro-people.” — 08:30

That does not erase history or pain. It does not mean every action is good. It means every person remains an image-bearer.

No modern nation-state gets a blank check from Jesus. The command to love does not stop at a border. Christ does not ask for our enemy’s passport before telling us to pray for them.

As Josif later says, we are called to love people “no matter who they are.”

The Flag Beside the Cross

Josif remembers churches where people stood, faced the American flag, and pledged their allegiance during worship. At the time, it felt normal.

That is how idols often work. They do not walk into the sanctuary wearing devil horns. They arrive wrapped in tradition.

Josif now sees the conflict clearly:

“We should be pledging allegiance to the King—to King Jesus—and not to a flag.” — 22:42

The Pledge of Allegiance is not only a promise to a piece of cloth. It is a promise to “the republic for which it stands.” That raises a question Christians cannot avoid: can our highest allegiance belong to both Jesus and an empire?

Jesus said we cannot serve two masters.

This does not require hatred for our neighbors, veterans, or the land where we live. Josif speaks with care about those who returned from war with lost limbs, trauma, homelessness, or despair. His concern is not contempt for people. It is the worship of the machine that used them.

“No King but Christ” means what it says. No president, nation, pastor, party, or flag gets the loyalty that belongs to Jesus.

When Pastors “Call the Shots”

Josif’s questions also led him to challenge church authority built on fear.

He remembers pastors saying things such as, “Don’t challenge me,” and, “I call the shots.” But that is not the leadership Jesus modeled. Jesus knelt. Jesus washed feet. Jesus warned His disciples not to rule like the kings of the nations.

Josif no longer stands behind a pulpit when he speaks. He comes down to the same level as the people in the room. The movement is small, but the message is clear: we are learning together.

Religious control and state control often speak the same language. Both demand submission. Both punish questions. Both build systems that benefit the people at the top.

Josif believes much of this is fear-based. Fear of punishment. Fear of disorder. Fear that everything will collapse unless a strong leader takes control.

But Christians already have a King. We do not need to manufacture another one.

Walking Away from Political Salvation

Josif once considered running for local office. He voted because that was what responsible Christians were expected to do. He even heard pastors suggest that a person was not a real Christian unless they voted.

Today, his view is different.

He no longer expects the political system to bring the Kingdom of God. He has watched systems change people more often than people change systems. Craig makes the point plainly: being “the light of the world” does not mean ruling over our neighbors.

Light looks like enemy-love. It looks like feeding people, telling the truth, forgiving, serving, and refusing to repay evil with evil.

We do not become more Christlike by gaining the legal power to force people to behave as we wish. Jesus changes hearts through invitation, truth, sacrifice, and love, not through a ballot-backed threat.

The Other War Within

Around the middle of the episode, the conversation shifts. The flag gives way to a father’s journal. Political control gives way to the helplessness of watching someone you love suffer.

Josif’s son Ryan dealt with childhood migraines and chronic pain. Pills were available. Pain relief slowly became something else. Feelings of being unloved, painful losses, broken trust, and the death of his grandmother added to the weight.

Josif wrote The War Within from a parent’s point of view. He did not want to write it at first. Returning to old journal pages brought the fear and grief back to life. Yet writing also became part of his healing.

For years, addiction shaped the whole family. Josif and his wife described their condition in medical terms. Sometimes they were stable. Sometimes critical. Sometimes on life support.

“I had a knot in my stomach for a decade,” Josif says. “Addiction is a beast.”

Love Cannot Force Someone Free

Families dealing with addiction know the terrible urge to fix everything.

Find the right rehab. Make the right phone call. Drive another three hours. Say the right prayer. Watch more closely. Try harder.

Josif drove across the state again and again during one terrible month. Ryan told him, “The hooks are in so deep. I don’t know how I’m going to get out of this.”

Then someone at a church service offered Josif a hard word:

“You’re trying too hard. You’re trying to control the situation. Just step back. Just let God be God.” — 44:05

Letting go did not mean Josif stopped loving Ryan. It meant admitting that a father could not become his son’s savior.

Three days later, Ryan called and asked Josif to come get him. Recovery was not smooth or simple. There were setbacks. There was detox, long treatment, reading, faith, and a slow rebuilding of life. Josif says Ryan had been clean for eight years at the time of the recording.

The story is not a formula. Every person and every recovery path is different. It is a witness to grace that kept showing up.

More Than a Label

Josif challenges the shame often placed on people with addictions.

Churches may call people dirty, hopeless, or permanently defined by the worst part of their lives. Josif points instead to the New Testament language of new creation, saints, and a royal priesthood.

That does not mean pretending harm never happened. Grace tells the truth. But grace also refuses to reduce a human being to a label.

Craig connects this to his brother TJ, who died after struggling with alcohol and depression. TJ was not a bad person. He was a peaceful man who carried pain and could not find a way out.

The stories of Ryan and TJ remind us that addiction touches more than one body. It reaches parents, siblings, spouses, children, and friends. Yet shame does not heal anyone.

Love may not control the outcome, but it can keep the door open.

“God Just Calls Us to Love”

Near the end, Josif talks about the people he has met in treatment centers and recovery spaces.

“They are wonderful people,” he says.

Addiction can lead people to say and do awful things. Families need boundaries. Harm should not be denied. But the addiction is not the whole person.

Josif remembers hearing someone use cruel terms for people struggling with drugs. After she read his book, her language changed.

“We’re all struggling with something… God doesn’t call us to judge. He just calls us to love.” — 54:40

There is the thread connecting both halves of this episode.

Christian nationalism looks at enemies and asks how the state can control them. Religious legalism looks at sinners and asks how the church can shame them. Fearful families may look at addiction and ask how they can force someone to change.

Jesus meets people without turning them into projects.

He tells the truth. He protects the wounded. He resists coercion. He loves without pretending. He lays down His own life rather than taking someone else’s.

Flags demand allegiance. Shame demands hiding. Jesus invites us into truth, freedom, mercy, and love. That is the Kingdom.

🤝Connect with Josif🤝

• Book: The War Within: My Story at Barnes & Noble & Amazon

• Email: thewarwithinmystory@gmail.com

• Instagram: @Josifwright 

• X: @Josifwright 

• Nostr/Damus: @j3

Highlights & Takeaways

• Questioning inherited teaching can be an act of faith, not rebellion.

• No modern nation deserves unconditional Christian loyalty or support.

• A flag in a sanctuary can quietly teach divided allegiance.

• “Be the light” means loving and serving people—not gaining power over them.

• Fear-based pastors often mirror the control methods of the state.

• Addiction affects entire families, and recovery cannot be forced from the outside.

• People struggling with addiction are still image-bearers, not insults or labels.

• Grace tells the truth while refusing to abandon the person.

Listen

Notice where Josif’s political awakening and his family’s addiction story overlap. Listen for the moments when control fails and mercy begins.

Reflect

Where has fear shaped your faith? Have you placed more hope in a political leader, pastor, program, or personal plan than in the patient way of Jesus?

Read

Read Matthew 5:43–48, Galatians 3:26–29, John 18:33–38, and 2 Corinthians 5:17. Ask what these passages say about enemies, identity, nations, and new creation.

Practice

Sit with someone who is struggling without trying to fix them in the first five minutes. Listen, learn their story, and offer one form of help they are willing to receive.

Episode Breakdown:

(00:00) Leaving Christian nationalism

• Josif Wright’s changing beliefs

• The War Within: My Story

• Craig’s connection through TJ

(02:42) Meet Josif Wright

• Public-school educator and coach

• Hospice chaplain and church speaker

• Rare-disease advocacy

(04:20) “Don’t trust the government and be kind”

• JAG classroom lessons

• Student questions about war

• Thinking beyond the curriculum

(07:02) Questioning old church teaching

• Doing your own research

• Pastors and microphones

• Tithing, ministry, and inherited claims

(08:30) God is pro-people

• Israel and Palestine

• Galatians and human identity

• Love beyond political teams

(11:22) Nation-state Israel and Christian nationalism

• Biblical Israel vs. modern government

• Allegiance to Jesus

• Violence without a Kingdom blank check

(16:19) Josif’s slow change of mind

• No single conversion moment

• Five years of deep rethinking

• Regret without hiding

(19:14) Digging deeper into Scripture

• Original-language study

• Romans 13 questions

• The Bible beyond American assumptions

(21:40) Legalism, flags, and fear

• National symbols in worship

• Authoritarian pastors

• Submission benefiting institutions

(25:18) Two masters and the pledge

• Allegiance to the republic

• Craig’s personal conviction

• Flag beside the cross

(27:37) Students who will not stand

• Classroom Pledge of Allegiance

• Respect without forced participation

• Younger people questioning nationalism

(29:10) Voting and political identity

• “Real Christians vote”

• Leaving party categories

• Josif’s changing civic habits

(33:17) Being light without ruling

• Neighbor-love and enemy-love

• Political office and coercion

• Trust in Christ beyond collapsing systems

(34:53) Introducing The War Within

• Ryan’s decade-long addiction

• Craig’s memories of TJ

• Grief as shared ground

(36:10) Writing from a father’s view

• Journals and painful memories

• Ryan’s permission

• Writing as therapy

(37:10) Pain beneath addiction

• Childhood migraines

• Pills and chronic pain

• Loss, loneliness, and grief

(40:00) A family on life support

• Years of fear

• Multiple treatment programs

• Limits of short-term fixes

(42:35) “The hooks are in so deep”

• December 2016

• Repeated drives to help Ryan

• Belief, struggle, and grace

(44:05) Letting God be God

• Releasing control

• Prayer across states and nations

• Trust without clear answers

(45:00) “Come get me”

• Leaving the heroin house

• Home detox

• A new opening

(46:00) Building a life after addiction

• Reading and new interests

• Setbacks without surrender

• Finding the next step

(47:10) Eight years and a new identity

• Recovery and freedom

• New-creation language

• Saints instead of shame

(51:00) Craig remembers TJ

• Depression and alcohol

• COVID-era isolation

• Limits of family control

(53:40) Changing how churches speak

• People beyond their addiction

• Cruel labels challenged

• Love where people are

(55:56) Where to find Josif

• Book retailers

• Social media and email

• Free copies for people in need

---

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162. Iranian Christians, ICE Raids, and the Cost of Following Jesus with Ara Torosian

What does it mean to follow Jesus when governments demand your allegiance, your silence, or your fear?

That question is not abstract in this episode. It has a name, a face, a church family, and tears on a Los Angeles sidewalk and Iranian streets. Craig sits down with Ara Torosian, an Iranian-born Armenian pastor now living in Los Angeles, to talk about Iranian Christians, war, asylum, ICE arrests, and what it means to follow Jesus when governments on every side demand our fear.

Ara’s story does not fit into our neat American boxes. He loves Iran. He loves America. He has suffered under the Iranian regime. He has been and watched Christians be persecuted in Iran. He has seen fellow asylum seekers be detained here in the United States government. That kind of story makes slogans fall apart fast.

And maybe that is the point.

Because if Jesus is Lord, then no flag gets to blind us. No empire gets a blank check. No ruler gets to replace mercy. No King but Christ.

When the government Becomes a Teacher of Fear

Ara was born in Iran in 1979, the year of the Iranian Revolution. He grew up as part of an Armenian Christian minority in a country shaped by pressure, control, and fear. As a child, he remembers being pushed to step on painted U.S. flags and Israeli flags at school while chants were taught like lessons.

That is what governments do. They train children to hate the “enemy” before the children even know what the word means.

But here is the catch: the U.S. does this too. Maybe the songs are different. Maybe the flags are treated with more reverence. Maybe the slogans sound more polished. But when any government teaches us who to fear, who to bomb, who to cage, and who to ignore, Christians should pause.

Jesus never said, “Blessed are the well-propagandized.” He said, “Blessed are the peacemakers.”

The Underground Church and the Cost of Saying Yes

Ara came to faith as a teenager after reading the Bible in Farsi. He knew from the start that following Jesus could cost him. This was not church as a hobby. This was not Sunday morning culture. This was a dangerous yes.

“When I say, ‘Yes, Lord, I wanna follow you,’ I knew this is going to be dangerous. This might cost my life.” — Ara, around 10:17

That kind of faith exposes how soft our U.S. church games can be. We argue about music styles, coffee brands, and which politician God supposedly likes this year. Meanwhile, brothers and sisters in Iran have been arrested, beaten, imprisoned, and killed for gathering around Scripture.

Ara says the church in Iran went underground after pressure increased. And yet, the gospel kept moving. Not through government power. Not through a Christian nation. Not through forced religion.

Through witness. Through courage. Through people hungry for truth.

War, Peace, and the Sermon on the Mount

One of the hardest parts of this conversation is the tension around war. Ara has seen evil up close. He has watched people suffer under the Iranian regime. He understands why many Iranians are desperate for outside pressure and even military help.

Craig does not brush that pain aside. But he also asks the question Bad Romans have to ask:

“As I read the Sermon on the Mount, where am I gonna see this in the words of Jesus?” — Craig, 33:25

That question should haunt us in the best way.

Because the government always has a reason to bomb. Always. It is always freedom, safety, justice, defense, liberation, or national interest. But Jesus calls us to enemy-love, mercy, prayer, and cross-shaped faithfulness.

Ara says plainly, “As a Christian, I want peace. I want peace for all world.” He also admits the world is broken and the answers are not simple.

That honesty matters. We do not need cheap answers. We need Jesus-shaped ones.

The Church Is Not a Political Platform

Ara shares something every U.S. church should hear. In his own church, people have wanted to bring political loyalty into the pulpit. Some support Iranian opposition leaders. Some want the church to bless a movement or party.

Ara refuses.

“In my church, my platform is for Bible and preaching the gospel.” — Ara, around 37:34–38:23

Amen and amen.

The church is not a campaign office. It is not a nationalist clubhouse. It is not a place to crown Caesar, Trump, Biden, Pahlavi, or anyone else. The church belongs to Christ.

That does not mean Christians stop caring about real suffering. It means we care without handing our worship to rulers.

When ICE Looks Like the Regime You Fled

Then the episode turns from Iran to Los Angeles.

Ara describes Iranian Christian asylum seekers from his congregation being detained by ICE, including people with pending asylum cases and legal paperwork. He says one couple had lawyers, documents, and a live asylum case when they were arrested.

Ara watched masked agents detain people from his church. It brought him back to Iran.

“Seven minutes I was crying… Because that triggered me back in Iran.” — Ara, 52:49–53:00

That sentence should stop us cold.

What does it say when a pastor who fled persecution sees masked agents in U.S. uniforms and feels like he is back under the terror he escaped?

This is where “law and order” talk gets tested by Jesus. These are not talking points. These are image-bearers. These are families. These are people seeking refuge. Ara says it clearly: “They are just people. They are just Christians, persecuted Christian. They want freedom.”

Acting Christian, Not Using Christianity

Ara does not ask U.S. Christians to pick a party. He asks them to act like Christians.

“The Christian show the act, mercy, and also compassion for human life.” — Ara, 58:00–58:09

That is the line.

Not “Who did you vote for?”
Not “Which side owns the news cycle?”
Not “Can we make this fit our immigration policy?”

Mercy. Compassion. Human life.

Craig adds that silence in the face of oppression makes us complicit. That is not a call to worship politics. It is a call to stop hiding behind politics when our neighbors are suffering. 

May we be people who speak for the voiceless, refuse the worship of empire, and follow the crucified King.

Jesus over empire. Neighbor-love over coercion. No King but Christ.

🤝Connect with Ara Torosian🤝

• Instagram: Ara Torosian, @aratorosian (Instagram)

• Facebook: Ara Torosian (Facebook)

• Church connection: Cornerstone West Los Angeles / Farsi-speaking community; Ara has written publicly for the church about war, immigration struggle, and his congregation’s pain. (cornerstonewla.org)

• Related reporting: Christianity Today covered one Iranian Christian connected to Ara’s church being freed after nine months in immigration detention. (Christianity Today)

• Related reporting: Religion News Service covered Ara’s hunger strike and advocacy for detained Iranian Christians. (RNS)

• Related reporting: Reuters covered immigration arrests of Iranian asylum seekers in Los Angeles and Ara’s response as pastor. (Reuters)

Highlights & Takeaways

• Governments train fear. Jesus trains enemy-love.

• Iranian people are not the Iranian regime. We must stop confusing rulers with the people under them.

• War always promises freedom, but often multiplies death. Christians must test every claim by the words of Jesus.

• The church pulpit belongs to Christ. It should not become a stage for parties, rulers, or national movements.

• Persecuted Christians need protection, not political theater. Asylum seekers are neighbors, not props.

• Mercy is not weakness. It is what faithfulness looks like when the government gets cruel.

• Speaking up matters. Silence can become cooperation with oppression.

• No King but Christ means no empire or government gets our full trust. Not Iran. Not America. Not any government.

Listen

Listen for the tension in Ara’s story. He loves America, grieves Iran, opposes oppression, and still wrestles with what peace looks like in a broken world.

Reflect

Where have you let a government tell you who your enemy is? What would change if you looked at that person first through the eyes of Jesus?

Read

Read Matthew 5–7 slowly this week. Pay special attention to enemy-love, mercy, prayer, and the way Jesus rejects revenge.

Practice

Find one immigrant, refugee, prisoner, or detained family story in your own community. Do not turn it into a debate. Pray, listen, and look for one concrete act of mercy.

Episode Timestamps:

(00:00) government oppression and Iranian Christians

• Standing by or speaking up

• Iranian Christians in Iran and United States

• Ara Torosian introduced

(00:37) Meeting Ara

• Brian Drinkwine connection

• Western blind spots about Iran

• Hidden Christian communities

(02:01) Ara’s background

• Armenian Christian roots

• Born during the Iranian Revolution

• Minority life under pressure

(03:32) Discovering the Bible in Farsi

• First encounter with the gospel

• Six months of searching

• A dangerous yes to Jesus

(04:06) Childhood under government propaganda

• Anti-Western school rituals Iran

• Forced slogans and flags

• Fear taught young

(07:00) Pressure on Christians in Iran

• Closed churches

• Pastors killed or imprisoned

• Underground Christian faith in Iran

(10:17) Following Jesus when it costs

• Faith with real danger

• Prison and persecution

• American comfort challenged

(11:28) Smuggling Bibles into Iran and house arrest

• Arrest at the airport

• Two years under pressure

• Intelligence office interrogations

(12:43) The underground church grows

• House churches after closures

• Hunger for truth

• Iran as mission field

(15:03) People versus regimes

• Iranian people not the regime

• American government comparison

• government power and coercion

(17:10) War, freedom, and mixed Iranian views

• Some wanting intervention

• Some fearing bombs

• Media narratives questioned

(30:57) Craig presses the Jesus question

• War on terror comparison

• More war making more death

• Sermon on the Mount tension

(33:32) Ara’s struggle with war and peace

• Wanting peace as a Christian

• Broken world realities

• Rights versus righteousness

(34:46) Presenting, not protesting

• White House fasting

• Voice for the voiceless

• Persecuted Christians detained

(35:37) Government worship in churches

• Leaders lifted over Scripture

• Jesus as Savior, not rulers

• Peace prayed for daily

(37:03) Politics inside the church

• Iranian opposition movements

• Pulpit not for parties

• Church as gospel space

(48:01) Bad Roman donation break

• Spotfund support

• No King But Christ message

• Donations beyond costs to Memphis charities

(48:38) ICE arrests and asylum seekers

• Church members detained

• Pending asylum cases

• Legal path concerns

(52:03) Masked agents and trauma

• Couples detained

• Panic attack and emergency room

• Iran memories triggered

(54:00) Broken immigration system

• Asylum eventually granted

• Months in detention

• Families harmed

(55:44) Children praying for their dad

• Nine- and seven-year-old kids

• Detained father

• Sunday prayers

(56:08) Speaking because he can

• Freedom to criticize government in U.S. vs. Iran

• White House advocacy

• Church silence challenged

(58:00) What Christians should show

• Mercy and compassion

• Human dignity

• Persecuted Christians seeking freedom

(59:36) Silence and complicity

• Speaking out against oppression

• Possible costs

• Refusal to stay quiet

(01:01:03) Life belongs to Jesus

• Threats from Christians

• Fear admitted

• Kingdom purpose

(01:03:11) Bad Roman Salsa break

• Salsa support

• Homemade freedom joke

• No King but Christ jingle

(01:03:54) How many Christians in Iran?

• Numbers hard to know

• Underground church reality

• Fundraising claims questioned

(01:05:30) Where to find Ara

• Instagram and Facebook

• Open to honest questions

• Avoiding hateful arguments

(01:07:14) Lakers, Luka, and closing

• Basketball side quest

• Keeping in touch

• Final thanks

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Related Episodes

Related Blog Post

161. Flock Cameras, Privacy, and the Surveillance State with Jon Padfield

Should Christians care about privacy?

That question may sound strange at first. After all, if our Kingdom is not of this world, why worry about cameras on poles, license plate readers, data brokers, or government contracts? But then we remember something important: Jesus did not teach us to ignore our neighbors. He taught us to love them.

And love does not shrug when people are watched, scored, tracked, sorted, and controlled.

In this episode of The Bad Roman Podcast, Craig sits down with Jon Padfield, host of Business Reform, former Indiana state representative, engineer, professor, and privacy advocate. Jon brings a rare mix of tech knowledge, public policy experience, business insight, and Christian faith. His concern is simple: surveillance changes people. It makes them afraid to speak. It trains them to live like suspects.

As Jon says early in the conversation,

 “When people know they’re being surveilled, it affects the way that people behave” (03:00). 

That is not just a tech issue. That is a discipleship issue.

The Lie Behind “Nothing to Hide”

Most of us have heard it before: If you’re not doing anything wrong, why do you care who’s watching?

It sounds reasonable until you slow down. Who decides what “wrong” means? The same government that shut churches while calling other places “essential”? The same system that changes rules, shifts targets, and punishes people based on whatever fear is popular that week?

Jon calls that line a fallacy. It assumes guilt. It says if you want privacy, you must be hiding sin. But privacy is not guilt. Privacy is part of human dignity.

Jon gives a better answer he heard on the road: 

“Who gave you the right to decide if you’re doing anything wrong?” (18:00). 

That question cuts through the fog. Caesar always says he is only watching bad people. But Caesar also loves changing the definition of “bad.”

From Flock Safety to Flock Surveillance

Flock Safety is best known for license plate readers. Jon calls them “Flock Surveillance,” and he says their patent points to something bigger than simple traffic cameras: a “dynamic surveillance network” (06:00).

That matters because this is not only about stolen cars. Jon explains that Flock’s system can take in video from many sources: license plate readers, dash cams, doorbell cameras, police body cams, parking lot cameras, and other third-party cameras. The goal is not just to see one car. It is to catalog movement.

“Flock is tracking everybody doing everything, not just license plates,” Jon warns around the 11-minute mark.

 That is the part that should make Christians pause. A society built on constant watching is not a society built on trust. It is a society built on suspicion.

When Safety Becomes a Sales Pitch

Nobody sells surveillance by saying, “We want to control you.” They sell it with fear.

What about stolen cars? What about a kidnapped child? What about danger in your neighborhood?

Those are real fears. Craig does not dismiss them. Living near Memphis, he knows crime is not imaginary. But the question is not whether evil exists. The question is whether we should hand more power to the same institutions that already abuse power.

Jon points out that many camera searches are logged under the vague word “investigation” (24:20). That can mean almost anything. And when audit logs showed an officer using Flock information to provide data to ICE, Jon says the system changed from a free-form reason field to a pull-down menu. In other words, the problem did not go away. The paper trail got cleaner.

That is empire logic: not repentance, just better optics.

The Daycare Question

One of the most disturbing parts of the conversation comes when Jon talks about a daycare in Dunwoody, Georgia. According to Jon, a concerned father used public records to review audit logs and found Flock employees accessing cameras inside the daycare during the day, including cameras over the pool and gymnastics area.

Jon’s response is sharp and needed: if little girls at daycare are not doing anything wrong, why should anyone care who is watching them?

That question exposes the sickness of the “nothing to hide” argument. We know children deserve protection. We know watching people without cause is not harmless. So why do we forget that when the state points the camera at everyone else?

Consent Without Knowledge Is Not Consent

Craig and Jon spend time talking about consent. Cities and counties often install cameras without real public debate. People find out after the system is already in place. Then officials act like silence means approval.

Jon puts it plainly: 

“If you’re doing it without my knowledge, you are doing it without my consent” (49:00).

That line belongs on a shirt.

For Christians, consent matters because love does not force itself on people. Jesus invites. Caesar imposes. Jesus knocks at the door. Caesar installs a camera over it.

Christians, Voting, and Different Paths of Resistance

Craig brings the conversation back to a familiar Bad Roman tension: what should Christians do when they no longer consent to the government through voting?

Jon and Craig do not land in the exact same place. Jon still believes Christians should engage the political process. Craig explains why many Christian anarchists and voluntarists have stepped away from voting, especially when voting empowers rulers who can tax, spy, cage, and kill.

But the beauty of this exchange is that it never becomes a cable-news food fight. Jon says, 

“You’re my brother in Christ. You’re not the enemy” (1:02:54).

That is how Christians should disagree. Not by trying to own each other. Not by forming new tribes. But by asking: how do we resist evil without becoming what we resist?

Craig’s answer leans toward removing consent, speaking truth, making podcasts, writing, building community, and refusing to crown another king. Jon’s answer leans toward public pressure, state-level limits, data retention laws, and legal accountability. 

Both agree on the danger. Both agree the machine is real.

Practical Resistance Without Panic

This episode is not hopeless. Jon shares that cities and counties have canceled Flock contracts after citizens spoke up at meetings. He also talks about working with a state representative on language to restrict Flock statewide.

That does not mean the beast is tame. It means people are not powerless.

For those who do not vote, there are still ways to act: talk to neighbors, show up at meetings, request public records, share information, map cameras, support privacy advocates, and teach people how surveillance works. Christians do not need to worship the government to confront it.

We can be faithful without being frantic.

No King but Christ in a Watched World

The early church lived under empire, too. Rome had its own tools of control: soldiers, taxes, informants, prisons, crosses. Today’s empire has cameras, databases, data brokers, drones, and algorithms.

The tools changed. The temptation did not.

Will we trade freedom for safety? Will we cheer surveillance when it targets people we fear? Will we trust Caesar to define “good” and “bad”? Or will we remember that our King sees all things already, and unlike the government, He uses His power to heal, restore, and save?

Privacy is not about hiding sin. It is about resisting a world where every neighbor is treated like a suspect.

Sometimes being a good Christian means refusing to be a well-tracked Roman.

🤝Connect with Jon Padfield🤝

• YouTube: Business Reform

• Patreon

• Buy Me Coffee

• Tour: Brush Fires of Freedom Tour

• Privacy tool mentioned: DeFlock Me

• LinkedIn

• X: @Dr_Jon_Padfield

• TikTok: businessreform

Topics Jon covers: business, technology, society, privacy, surveillance, public policy, and faith

Highlights & Takeaways

• “Nothing to hide” is not a Christian argument; it assumes guilt and gives Caesar too much power.

• Flock cameras are not just about stolen cars; Jon warns they are part of a larger surveillance network.

• Safety language can hide control, especially when searches are logged under vague terms like “investigation.”

• Consent matters. If cameras are installed without public knowledge, the public did not truly consent.

• Christians can disagree on voting and still work together against surveillance, coercion, and state overreach.

• Privacy protects human dignity, neighbor-love, and the courage to speak truth.

• Local action can work: public pressure has helped some communities cancel Flock contracts.

• “No King but Christ” means refusing to trust empire with powers only God should hold.

Listen & Reflect

Listen

Listen for the way Jon connects technology, public policy, business, and faith. Ask yourself where surveillance has already become normal in your own town.

Reflect

Where have you accepted “safety” language without asking who gains power from it? Have you ever used the phrase “nothing to hide” without thinking about who gets to define guilt?

Read

Read Matthew 10:16–31 and Psalm 146. Sit with Jesus’ call to be wise, fearless, and loyal to God above rulers.

Practice

Look up whether your city or county uses Flock cameras. Talk with one neighbor about privacy, consent, and what it means to love people without treating them like suspects.

Episode Timestamps

(00:00) Should Christians care about privacy?

• Surveillance state concerns

• Flock cameras and public unease

• Following Christ, not the government

(01:23) Meet Jon Padfield

• Business Reform YouTube channel

• Engineering, public policy, and business background

• Faith and technology

(03:00) Surveillance changes behavior

• Reputation scores and monitoring

• Fear of speaking up

• “Stained Glass Masquerade” connection

• You Already Have a Reputation Score

(05:25) The “nothing to hide” fallacy

• Assumption of guilt

• Privacy as dignity

• Christians and concern for surveillance

(06:00) What Flock cameras are

• License plate readers

• Dynamic surveillance network

• Deflock mapping tool

(09:30) Beyond license plates

• Dash cams, doorbells, body cams

• AI cataloging movement

• Facial and vehicle recognition

(12:00) Daycare camera concerns

• Audit logs from Dunwoody daycare

• Pool and gymnastics area cameras

• Children and the privacy question

(17:54) Who decides what is wrong?

• Better answer to “nothing to hide”

• Lockdown memory

• State power defining guilt

(20:37) Local, state, and federal use

• Memphis and Fayette County examples

• Flock’s federal-data claims

• ICE and local law enforcement sharing

(22:30) Who owns the data?

• Agency ownership claims

• Flock’s perpetual license

• Data retention concerns

(24:20) “Investigation” as a search reason

• Vague police search labels

• ICE audit log example

• Pull-down menus replacing written reasons

(27:08) Pushback and privacy laws

• Ring  Superbowl backlash

• Thomas Massie and Lauren Boebert bill

• Warrant requirements and Fourth Amendment concerns

(28:15) Local wins against Flock

• Cities and counties canceling Flock contracts

• Public pressure at meetings

• State-level restriction efforts

(31:00) Federal privacy law concerns

• Stronger state protections

• California and Illinois examples

• Private right of action

(34:21) Data brokers and insurance companies

• Privacy policies as invasion policies

• Sensitive personal data

• Browsing, purchase, and search history

(41:30) How cameras appear without debate

• Local implementation questions

• Complacency and compliance

• Safety versus privacy

(45:56) Consent and government power

• Declaration of Independence language

• Consent of the governed

• Knowledge as part of consent

(49:30) The four boxes

• Soapbox

• Ballot box

• Jury box

• Ammo box warning

(52:32) Christian resistance and voting

• Craig’s Christian anarchist position

• Early church and empire

• Removing consent from rulers

(55:00) Jon’s case for engagement

• Christians in public office

• Not ceding ground

• Different paths, shared concerns

(1:02:54) Brothers, not enemies

• Agreement on the goal

• Different strategies

• Privacy advocacy and Christian unity

(1:04:00) Pragmatic limits on surveillance

• Data retention policies

• Warrants and targeted searches

• Higher chance of passing restrictions

(1:07:00) Safety arguments

• Kidnapped child scenarios

• Stolen vehicle concerns

• Cost of “a little privacy”

(1:28:00) Where to find Jon

• Business Reform on YouTube

• Patreon community

• Future conversation invitation

(1:29:13) Closing and support

• If this conversation helped you rethink privacy, surveillance, and Christian faithfulness, share it with someone who still says, “If you have nothing to hide, why worry?”

• Look up the cameras in your town. Ask questions. Talk to neighbors. Read the Gospels. And remember: our hope is not in better surveillance, better rulers, or better empire management.

• No King but Christ

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Related Episodes

Related Blog Post

160. Revelation 18, Ephesians 6, and the Love of Money with Brandon Kroll

Is Christian anarchism a faithful place to stand as governments grow darker, or should we still try to “fix” things through the kingdoms of this world? That is where this episode begins, and Brandon Kroll does not answer with soft edges.

This is one of those Bad Roman conversations that feels like a long walk into deep water. Some listeners will nod the whole way. Others will stop every few minutes and ask, “Wait, what did he just say?” But even when the details get wild, the central question of the episode is clear enough: Christians must decide whether our allegiance belongs to Christ or to the systems of power built on money, control, and fear.

Brandon Kroll, of the Manna Daily Podcast, returns to the show to connect Revelation 18, Ephesians 6, the merchant class, the founding of America, spiritual warfare, and the love of money. It is not a neat conversation. It is a provocative one. But the heartbeat underneath it is old and familiar: the powers of this age are not neutral, and disciples of Jesus should be careful not to confuse the machinery of government with the Kingdom of God.

When Merchants Become the Great Men of the Earth

Brandon starts in Revelation 18:23, where the merchants are called “the great men of the earth.” That phrase becomes a doorway into the whole conversation. What happens when commerce no longer serves people but rules them? What happens when wealth, technology, government power, and public deception all start moving as one machine?

That question does not stay in the first century. Brandon brings it right into our world of billionaires, corporate-government partnerships, and systems that seem too big to resist. Whether or not listeners agree with every link he makes, the deeper issue is hard to ignore: money is never just money when it starts shaping our desires.

Jesus warned us about Mammon because Mammon is not simply a budgeting problem. It is a loyalty problem.

And if the merchants really are the great men of the earth, then maybe empire does not only wear a crown. Maybe it also wears a suit, signs contracts, and smiles through a press conference.

The Government, the Market, and the Old Temptation of Control

One striking thread in this episode is Brandon’s insistence that America’s founding cannot be separated from merchant power. He moves through the East India Company, chartered privilege, the Articles of Confederation, federalization, and property requirements for voice and representation.

Some listeners will want to sift through every historical claim. Fair enough. But the spiritual point underneath the history is what gives the episode its force: concentrated power tends to gather around concentrated wealth, and both tend to justify themselves with grand language about order, freedom, and progress.

That sounds familiar, doesn’t it?

We still live in a world where poor people are told to trust systems designed by people who profit from distance. We still treat “representation” as though it means consent. We still call people free while they are trapped in structures they did not choose and cannot meaningfully challenge.

The old temptation remains the same. We keep hoping Caesar will become kind if the right people advise him. Jesus offers a different path entirely.

The Love of Money Is Never Just About Cash

Around the middle of the episode, the conversation shifts hard into 1 Timothy 6:10 and the love of money. Here Brandon ties money, identity, digital control, and dependence together.

Again, some of his applications are unusual. But the warning itself is painfully relevant: the more tightly our lives are tied to central systems of access and approval, the easier it becomes for those systems to train us. Buy. Sell. Comply. Scan. Submit. Repeat.

What if the real danger is not just greed, but slowly becoming the kind of people who cannot imagine life without being managed?

That lands close to home. We all know how easy it is to trade freedom for convenience, conviction for access, and discipleship for comfort. The love of money is not only about wanting more. Sometimes it is about being too afraid to lose what keeps us comfortable.

And once comfort is king, Jesus becomes a consultant.

Our Struggle Is Not Against Flesh and Blood

One of the strongest moments in the episode comes when Craig brings the whole conversation back to Ephesians 6:12. That is the right move. Because if Christian anarchism means anything in a Bad Roman sense, it does not mean rage, chaos, or macho rebellion. It means seeing that our deepest battle is not against our neighbors, but against rulers, authorities, and dark powers that shape the world.

Craig asks plainly whether those “authorities” and “powers of this dark world” refer to the government, demons, or both. That question matters because Christians often make one of two mistakes. We either reduce evil to “bad people over there,” or we spiritualize everything so much that we stop naming real systems of domination.

The New Testament refuses both shortcuts.

The powers are spiritual, yes. But they also take visible form in institutions, economies, governments, and habits of obedience. Evil does not only show up in dramatic places. It can also show up in laws, rewards, and systems that train us to compromise.

Christian Anarchism and Heavenly Citizenship

Near the end, Brandon circles back to the idea that Christians belong neither to the land nor the sea, but to heaven. Whatever one makes of the imagery, the point resonates with Philippians 3:20: our citizenship is in heaven.

That line is so easy to quote and so hard to live.

Because if our citizenship is really in heaven, then the government cannot claim our ultimate loyalty. Flags cannot tell us who we are. Money cannot tell us what we are worth. Political structures cannot tell us what hope is possible. The Kingdom of God is not an improved version of government. It is a rival reality.

This is where Bad Roman listeners should lean in. Christian anarchism, at its healthiest, is not rebellion for rebellion’s sake. It is a refusal to hand over to Caesar, to governments, what belongs to Christ: our conscience, our worship, our neighbor-love, our fear, and our future.

Closing

If this episode unsettled you, that may not be a bad thing. Sometimes we need our reflexes interrupted before we can hear Jesus clearly again. 

🤝Connect with Brandon Kroll🤝

• Previous Bad Roman Episodes

• EP 123 Patriot or Saint with Brandon Kroll

• Mana Daily Podcast on YouTube

• Mana Daily Podcast on Spotify

• Mana Daily Podcast on Rumble

• Mana Daily Podcast Patreon

Highlights & Takeaways

• Revelation’s warning about merchants still speaks in an age of corporate-government power.

• The love of money is about loyalty, not just greed.

• Christians should be careful with systems that demand dependence in exchange for access.

• Representation without real consent is not the same as freedom.

• Ephesians 6 pushes us to see both spiritual evil and real systems of domination.

• Christian anarchism is not chaos; it is allegiance to Christ over coercive power.

• Material comfort can become a rival master if we are not paying attention.

• Philippians 3:20 reminds us that our deepest citizenship is in heaven.

Listen

Listen for the tension running through the whole episode: are we trying to beat the government and empire at its own game, or are we learning to live as citizens of another Kingdom?

Reflect

Where are you most tempted to trust the government or the market to do what only Christ can do? What forms of comfort or control make you slow to question empire/government?

Read

Read Revelation 18, Ephesians 6:10–20, 1 Timothy 6:6–10, and Philippians 3:17–21. Hold them together and ask what they reveal about money, power, and allegiance.

Practice

This week, examine one area where your life is tightly bound to systems of convenience and control. Don’t start with panic. Start with honesty. Ask what faithfulness to Jesus would look like there.

Episode Timestamps:

(0:00) Is Christian anarchism a good place to be as empires grow?

• Craig frames the episode around Christian anarchism, empire/government, Ephesians 6, and the love of money

• Brandon Kroll returns to talk spiritual warfare and allegiance

• Christ vs. the kingdoms of this world

(2:58) Starting with Revelation 18:23

• Craig hands the conversation to Brandon

• Revelation 18:23 tied to Ephesians 6

• the episode’s scriptural frame comes into focus

(3:20) The merchants, sorcery, and deception

• “the merchants were the great men of the earth”

• pharmakeia / sorcery language

• nations deceived through power and commerce

(4:44) America founded by merchants

• Brandon moves from Revelation to modern elites

• Charles Beard’s An Economic Interpretation of the Constitution enters the discussion

• merchant power becomes a lens for reading America’s roots

(6:58) Articles of Confederation and federal control

• looser confederation vs. franchise-style federal control

• one center of power over many states

• Brandon’s “franchise” analogy

(7:33) Property, money, and public voice

• representation tied to property and money

• peasants, patriots, and class language

• Leviticus 25 raised against land-selling and ownership claims

(24:18) Saints, rulers, and the governments of this world

• saints defined as people set apart from this world

• being against the rulers of this world

• money, materialism, and merchant control

(35:03) Technology, feeds, and programmed belief

• AI, feeds, and controlled information

• shaping people to believe what they already want

• programming people to act on behalf of power

(36:53) Ephesians 6 and the real battle

• Craig returns to Ephesians 6:12

• rulers, authorities, and spiritual warfare move back to the center

• the episode shifts from history and money back to the powers

(37:20) Government, demons, or both?

• Craig asks the question directly

• Brandon keeps pressing the powers language

• spiritual warfare stays tied to visible systems of rule

(49:14) Rome, seven mountains, and America’s symbols

• America, Rome, and symbolic parallels

• Catholic influence and founding imagery raised

• the conversation turns from abstract powers to public symbols

(49:49) Charlie Kirk and Christian nationalist imagination

• Brandon reflects on Charlie Kirk’s name and symbolism

• Christian nationalism comes into sharper focus

• the talk shifts into a dystopian thought experiment

(50:40) Restrictions, surveillance, and forced “Christian” order

• “make America Christian again” on a world scale

• Palantir surveillance and restrictions on the population

• public executions and corporate power used as a warning image

(59:23) Fear, compliance, and getting back to normal

• confusion and fear drive people toward control

• compliance is tied to comfort and normalcy

• Christians who resist power are contrasted with those who go along

(1:00:00) Voting, agency, and what we hand to government

• Craig shifts toward voting and political participation

• agency, trust, and dependence come into view

• allegiance to Christ is measured against what we hand to Caesar

(1:02:41) Caesar, land and sea, and citizenship in heaven

• “give that to Caesar” language returns

• land empire and sea imagery are tied to the government

• Philippians 3:20 closes the argument with citizenship in heaven

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Related Episodes

Related Blog Post

159. Delivered from the Evil Age: The Law Paul, & Christ's Gospel with Cody Cook

Can we be made right by the law, or are we made right through Christ? That question sits at the center of this episode, but it does not stay small for long. Before long, Craig and Cody Cook are walking through Galatians, spiritual powers, Paul’s strange and beautiful logic, and the way modern Christians often ask Paul questions Paul may not have been trying to answer.

This conversation feels like standing in a doorway between two worlds. On one side is the tidy, familiar version of faith where everything is reduced to rule-keeping, categories, and being declared right. On the other side is the larger, stranger world of the New Testament, where Jesus does not simply help us behave better. He rescues us from an evil age. He breaks the grip of powers we barely know how to name. He brings us into a new family and a new creation.

Cody Cook returns to The Bad Roman Podcast to talk about his book Delivered from the Evil Age of the Present. What follows is not just a book discussion. It is a reminder that the gospel is bigger than legal formulas and deeper than online arguments. If Jesus really came to deliver us from this present evil age, then we have to ask: what are we still trying to crawl back under?

When We Ask Paul the Wrong Question

A lot of us were taught to read Paul through one main lens: law versus grace. Works versus faith. Trying hard versus trusting Jesus. There is truth in that, of course, but Cody helps slow the conversation down and ask whether that frame is too small.

He walks through the old perspective, the new perspective, and newer debates around “Paul within Judaism” and “apocalyptic Paul.” That may sound technical, but the heart of it is simple enough: are we reading Paul as if his biggest concern is personal guilt, or are we seeing that he is also talking about spiritual slavery and rescue through Christ?

That difference matters. A lot. If we reduce Paul to “How do I get forgiven?” we may miss the bigger thunderclap: Jesus has invaded a world held captive and has begun setting people free.

As Cody puts it,

 “Jesus Christ gave himself on behalf of our sins in order that he might deliver us from the evil age of the present” (20:36–20:50). 

That is not small language. That is rescue language. That is Kingdom language.

Declared Right, or Made New?

There is a line in this conversation that lands like a brick because it names something ugly in us with painful clarity: 

“We wanna be declared right. We don’t wanna be right. We don’t wanna do right” (15:08–15:12).

Ouch. But isn’t that often true?

We want the label without the surrender. We want justification without transformation. We want a religious stamp that says “approved” while still holding on to our old loves, our old fears, and our old group loyalties. We would often rather be pronounced innocent than become holy.

But union with Christ is not a loophole. It is adoption. It is new belonging. It is a move from one realm to another. Cody keeps bringing the conversation back to the idea that in Christ we become sons and daughters, not just defendants who got good legal counsel. The law had a role, but it was temporary. Christ is not merely helping us manage the old world better. He is bringing us into a new one.

Rescued from the Powers We Barely See

Cody explains why Galatians 4 matters so much. He argues that Galatians 1:3–4 gives us Paul’s main point: Jesus gave himself to deliver us from this evil age. Then Galatians 3 and 4 show what that deliverance means.

This is where the Greek word stoicheia enters the conversation. In Galatians 4, many readers know the line, “we were in slavery under the elementary principles of the world.” That English wording can make Paul sound like he is only talking about basic rules or first lessons. But Cody says the Greek word stoicheia can carry more weight than that. It can mean elements or basic parts, but it can also point to spiritual powers. His point is that Paul may be warning the Galatians not just about bad ideas, but about a deeper kind of bondage. They had once been enslaved to pagan powers, and now, in a tragic twist, they were being tempted to go back under another form of slavery.

That is one of the hardest lessons for us to learn. We can leave one kind of bondage and then gladly embrace another one because it feels cleaner, more respectable, and more religious. But if it still enslaves, it is still slavery.

How often do we do the same? We leave the chaos of the world only to kneel before nationalism, ideology, partisanship, or religious performance. We trade one chain for another and call it maturity.

A Gospel Big Enough to Break Divisions

This episode also quietly pushes against modern identity obsessions. If Christ has truly brought a new creation, then ethnic, national, and political identities are no longer first. That does not erase history or culture, but it does put them in their proper place.

The powers love divided humanity. They thrive on categories that can be weaponized. They want us to keep introducing ourselves first by tribe, class, nation, and ideology. But Paul keeps pointing somewhere else. In Christ, the old walls are not the point anymore. A new world is breaking in.

That raises a hard question: do we really want that? Or do we only want a Jesus who blesses our side and leaves our favorite lines in place?

The Law Was Never the Destination

Cody is careful here, and that matters. He does not treat the law as useless or evil. He says there is still wisdom there. We can still learn from it. But we are not under it in the same way anymore. It served a role for a time, but it was not the end of the story.

That is freeing, but it is also disorienting. We like systems we can master. We like rules we can measure. We like faith that can be managed. Christ does not always give us that kind of safety.

Instead, he gives us himself.

And that means the Christian life is less like following a checklist and more like learning how to live as adopted children in a new household. It is more relational, more demanding, more beautiful, and harder to fake.

🤝Connect with Cody Cook🤝

• Book: Delivered from the Evil Age of the Present: How Jesus Brought About a New Creation by Subverting the Powers Behind Nationalism and Ethnic Identitarianism

• Explore Cody’s Books: The Anarchist Anabaptist, The Pocket Anabaptist, Fight the Powers, What Belongs to Caesar?

• Podcast and writing: Cantus Firmus

• Libertarian Christian Institute author page

• X: @CantusFirmusCC

• Podcast: Cantus Firmus

• Website: cantus-firmus.com

• Bad Roman Episodes with Cody Cook:

• EP 89 God's Country or Jesus’s Kingdom? Navigating the Nexus of Nationalism and Faith in America

• EP 99 Navigating Revivals in Christianity with Cody Cook

• EP 128 The Anabaptist Way: Rediscovering Radical Christianity with Cody Cook

Highlights & Takeaways

• Galatians is not just about personal guilt; it is about deliverance from an evil age.

• We often want to be declared right more than we want to become holy.

• Union with Christ is not just legal language; it is family language.

• Paul’s vision is big: Christ defeats the powers that enslave humanity.

• The law had a purpose, but it was never the final destination.

• Spiritual bondage can return in respectable religious forms.

• National, ethnic, and political identities lose their highest place in Christ.

• The gospel is not self-improvement. It is rescue, adoption, and new creation.

Listen

Listen for the way Cody widens the frame. This is not only a conversation about law and grace. It is about rescue, powers, and the new creation breaking into the old one.

Reflect

What kind of Christianity feels safest to you: one that gives you clear status, or one that calls you into real change? Where are you still asking Paul smaller questions than he is answering?

Read

Read Galatians 1:3–4 and Galatians 4:1–11 slowly. Then read them again with this question in mind: what if Paul is talking about deliverance from more than personal guilt?

Practice

Name one identity you lean on too hard: political, national, denominational, or cultural. This week, hold it under the lordship of Jesus and ask what has to loosen if Christ really is your primary allegiance.

Episode Timestamps:

(0:00) Can law make us right, or only Christ?

• opening question

• Cody Cook’s new book introduced

• law, Christ, and online arguments

(1:26) Why Cody wrote this book

• Galatians 4:1–7 as the anchor essay

• revised school work

• chapters 4–6 as the key section

(4:13) Different ways people read Paul

• old perspective

• new perspective

• later debates about Paul

(9:27) Courtroom, table, and battle

• salvation in a courtroom

• salvation at the table

• salvation as conflict with the powers

(15:08) “We wanna be declared right”

• declared right vs being made right

• union with Christ

• change, not just status

(20:23) Why Galatians 4 matters

• Galatians 1:3–4 as the thesis

• rescue from the present evil age

• stoicheia and slavery

(34:13) Ordo amoris, J.D. Vance, and nation-first love

• “ordered loves”

• Christian nationalist excitement over the phrase

• Augustine, Aquinas, neighbor-love, and church history

(57:48) Athanasius, incarnation, and the defeat of evil

• On the Incarnation

• image of God, mortality, and corruption

• Jesus defeating demons and idols

(1:01:23) Christians, weapons, and the words of Jesus

• swords into plowshares

• “you can’t kill the devil with a gun or a sword”

• national identities lose their grip in Christ

(1:06:16) Where to learn more

• Libertarian Christian Institute

• Cody’s interviews there

• Nick Quint on apocalyptic Paul

---

Related Episodes

Related Blog Post

158. Conservative Politics vs. Bible Politics with Jordan Grant

There’s a moment a lot of us remember, even if we wish we didn’t.

A moment when politics stopped feeling like a hobby or a duty and started feeling like a religion. A time when we could repeat the talking points, defend the system, and call it wisdom. We were sure we were being faithful. Sure we were being responsible. Sure we were on the side of truth.

But what happens when the spell breaks?

In this episode, Craig sits down with Jordan Grant to talk about that slow, often painful unraveling. Jordan is a physician from Texas whose journey moved from conservative certainty and talk-radio formation to deep questions about authority, coercion, medicine, the church, and what it really means to follow Jesus. This isn’t a play-by-play of one man changing political labels. It’s the story of what happens when conviction gets more important than tribe, and when the words of Jesus become harder to ignore than the noise of government.

And maybe that’s the real question under this whole conversation: what if the issue isn’t that we got our politics slightly wrong? What if we trusted the wrong kind of power altogether?

When the Script Starts Writing You

Jordan’s story begins in a place many listeners will recognize. He grew up in Texas, in a Christian home, with politics more assumed than deeply examined. You’re a Christian, so of course you’re conservative. You vote Republican. You defend America. You support the system. That’s just what “our people” do.

Then 9/11 happened, and like it did for so many people, it hardened the script. Talk radio filled in the blanks. Fear gave authority a moral glow. What had once been background noise became formation. Jordan describes becoming a full-blown “cage-stage conservative,” devouring the arguments, the voices, the outrage, the confidence. Craig laughs about doing his own version of the same thing, falling asleep to Fox News and waking up angry at Democrats. Funny, until it isn’t.

That’s how propaganda often works. It doesn’t just tell us what to think. It teaches us what kind of person to become.

Reading the Bible Without the State’s Glasses

But Jordan’s shift didn’t begin with politics. It began with Scripture.

During the years between finance work and medical school, he started reading the Bible for himself. Not just hearing verses filtered through church culture, but sitting with the text and wrestling with it directly. That changed him. Not all at once. Not with a dramatic lightning bolt. But enough to make him harder to manage.

That matters. Because once a person starts reading the Bible without automatically assuming Caesar is the good guy, things get uncomfortable fast. The teachings of Jesus don’t fit neatly inside our favorite patriotic categories. Enemy-love does not help campaign strategy. “Not so among you” doesn’t sound much like winning elections.

And Jordan makes that tension plain later in the episode: “It doesn’t get any clearer than that” when Jesus says His followers are not to lord power over others the way Gentile rulers do (1:04:48).

Medical School and the Myth of the Expert

A big turning point came in medical school.

Jordan says it was there that he started seeing the deeper authoritarian instincts behind modern systems. Not just in government, but in medicine too. He saw dogmatism. He saw hubris. He saw how easily people in respected institutions can begin to treat ordinary people like problems to manage rather than neighbors to love.

That part of the conversation lands hard because it isn’t really just about doctors. It’s about power. It’s about what happens when people begin to believe that expertise makes coercion righteous. Jordan says he saw firsthand the kind of mindset that quietly says, we know best, so trust us and obey.

That same mindset didn’t stay in the hospital. It spilled into the church, the culture, and the COVID years. And when churches echoed the government instead of standing against tyranny, both Jordan and Craig felt the betrayal.

Craig puts it bluntly: the church should have been the first to say, “I don’t think we will” when power tried shutting everything down. Jordan agrees: Christians pushing these kinds of tyrannies and blindly trusting “the expert” had to be called out (26:43).

The Cracks in Conservative Certainty

One of the most human parts of this episode is how familiar the old world still feels.

Jordan remembers the talk-radio years. Craig remembers the Fox years. Both of them know what it’s like to think Sean Hannity sounds profound. That’s why the conversation never turns smug. There’s no chest-thumping here, no “look how enlightened we are now.” There’s just recognition. We know how easy it is to get swept up, because we were.

And still, there’s hope.

Craig says he has more faith in younger people now, because at least many of them are asking questions. Jordan agrees that he sees a trend: people are beginning to question authority more than they used to. Not everyone. Not at the same speed. But enough to notice.

That matters, because every awakening starts with one forbidden question.

Can I Do This to My Neighbor?

Late in the episode, Jordan gives what may be the clearest summary of the whole conversation.

For people still on the fence, he says to start with principles, not pragmatism. Use this as the filter: Can I do this to my neighbor or not? If it would be evil for you to do it personally, why does it become righteous when the state does it with a flag and a larger budget?

Jordan describes using this line of thought in medical school and in everyday conversations. If he came to your house with a gun and demanded 30% of your income “for good things,” you wouldn’t call that moral. So why do we accept it when a system does it? His point is not that every hard question becomes instantly simple. His point is that principles matter more than outcomes we happen to prefer.

Or as he says, “principles trump pragmatism” (1:05:48).

That’s a deeply Christian idea, even if modern Christians often forget it.

Questioning Pastors, Churches, and the Things We Were Told Never to Touch

Jordan ends with one more challenge, and it’s a brave one.

He says Christians should be thinkers. Good thinkers. Solid thinkers. And that means it’s okay to question your pastor. It’s okay to leave a church if it’s pushing evil things. That won’t sound radical to everyone, but for people raised to equate church loyalty with obedience to God, it can feel like breaking a family curse.

Jordan isn’t encouraging rebellion for rebellion’s sake. He’s calling for conviction. If a church is teaching things that are antithetical to Christ, we do not owe it our silence.

Christian nationalism survives on borrowed trust. It counts on us being too scared to ask whether the people leading us actually sound like Jesus.

Sometimes faithfulness begins with a very simple act: refusing to pretend.

A Different Kind of Wake-Up

This conversation isn’t about becoming libertarian, anarchist, or anti-establishment as an identity. It’s about becoming honest.

Honest enough to admit that many of us once mistook certainty for wisdom.
Honest enough to admit that “Christian politics” often discipled us more than Jesus did.
Honest enough to ask whether the church has been waving the wrong banners for a very long time.

Jordan’s story reminds us that shifts like this rarely happen in a straight line. They come through reading, questioning, noticing, grieving, and slowly learning how to see our neighbor again.

Because maybe leaving the political script behind isn’t losing faith at all.

Maybe it’s the first time we’re actually starting to trust Jesus.

Highlights & Takeaways

• Many of us did not reason our way into statism; we were formed into it by fear, habit, media, and church culture.

• Reading Scripture for ourselves can expose how often we’ve filtered Jesus through patriotic assumptions.

• Authoritarianism does not only show up in government. It can appear in medicine, church life, and any system that treats people as manageable objects.

• COVID revealed how quickly many churches sided with power rather than with courage, mercy, and truth.

• Younger people asking hard questions may be one of the more hopeful signs in this cultural moment.

• “Can I do this to my neighbor?” is a powerful moral test for politics, voting, taxation, and coercion.

• Principles must matter more than pragmatism if we want to follow Jesus consistently.

• Christians should be thinkers, and that includes questioning pastors, churches, and traditions that defend what Christ would never command.

Listen

Listen for the way Jordan describes his shift not as a trendy political reinvention, but as a long collision between principle, Scripture, and lived experience.

Reflect

Where have we accepted coercion from the state that we would condemn in our own personal lives?

Read

Read Matthew 20:25–28 and ask whether our political instincts actually fit Jesus’ words: “Not so among you.”

Practice

Pick one belief you have about politics, voting, or authority and run it through this question all week: Can I do this to my neighbor in good conscience?

Episode Timestamps:

(0:00) Jordan Grant joins the show

• Craig introduces Jordan

• paradigm shift in faith and politics

• social media connection becomes podcast conversation

(4:35) Jordan’s background: Texas, finance, medicine, and faith

• small-town Texas upbringing

• finance degree, hated the cubicle life

• pre-med years become spiritual turning point

(8:38) 9/11, Bush-era politics, and the conservative script

• Christian = conservative assumption

• post-9/11 political awakening

• Republican identity without much examination

(10:46) Talk radio formation and becoming a “cage-stage conservative”

• devouring radio and pundit logic

• Sean Hannity talking points

• outrage as discipleship

(13:25) Younger people, military disillusionment, and questioning authority

• Craig’s hope in the younger generation

• refusing to die for empire

• asking questions older generations often avoid

(17:53) Medicine, the state, and forced trust

• medicine/state crossover

• losing trust in institutional authority

• coercion as a warning sign

(18:28) Medical school and the authoritarian mindset

• dogmatism in professional culture

• private contempt for “normies”

• expert culture and hubris

(19:30) Authoritarian systems inside modern medicine

• Rockefeller-era legacy

• approved knowledge vs. “quack” labels

• power holders deciding how people must live

(26:43) COVID, church shutdowns, and Christian compliance

• church entanglement with the state

• outrage at Christian silence

• ICE, experts, and pushing tyranny

(28:37) Reformed theology, Romans 13, and civil magistrate thinking

• Bible reading gets serious

• attraction to “intellectual” theology

• proof-texting for power

(40:14) Ron Paul, conviction, and the church’s blind spots

• justice, mercy, widow, orphan

• Christians booing what should convict them

• voting as legitimizing tyranny

(57:47) Wrestling with Scripture, certainty, and honest questions

• questioning inherited assumptions

• Jesus’ words as the clearest anchor

• letting hard questions stay hard

(1:04:48) “Not so among you”

• Jesus rejects lordship politics

• Matthew 20 as political confrontation

• the Kingdom not built on domination

(1:05:48) Practical advice for fence-sitters

• principles over pragmatism

• “Can I do this to my neighbor?”

• moral consistency as the filter

(1:08:20) Christians should be thinkers

• question your pastor

• leave churches pushing evil

• conviction over belonging

---

Related Episodes

Related Blog Post

157. Freemasonry vs. Christianity: Hidden Altars of Government with Scipio Eruditus

What happens when we start asking where our public myths came from? Not just our slogans, but our symbols. Not just our laws, but the spiritual imagination sitting underneath them.

In this episode of The Bad Roman Podcast, Craig sits down with Scipio Eruditus of Dispatches from Reality to talk about the historical and theological entanglements between Freemasonry, Christianity, and the state. On the surface, that might sound like a niche topic. But the deeper the conversation goes, the more it starts to feel like a mirror. Why are Christians so quick to trust power? Why do symbols on currency, patriotic myths, and secret oaths seem easier for many people to defend than the plain teachings of Jesus?

This is not a light conversation, but it is an important one. Scipio shares how his own journey, from military service and patriotism to deep suspicion of government, forced him to rethink the stories he once believed. And as the episode unfolds, the bigger question comes into view: can followers of Jesus stay awake in a world built on hidden loyalties, or will we keep baptizing government and calling it righteousness?

From patriotism to disillusionment

Scipio’s story begins with the kind of loyalty many Americans understand. He joined the Air Force in the wake of 9/11 believing he was fighting for freedom. But war has a way of exposing the distance between what we are told and what is true. What happens when the script falls apart in real time? What do we do when the nation we trusted starts to look less like a protector and more like a storyteller protecting its own image?

That experience became a crack in the wall. The guest describes Afghanistan as a turning point, not only because of the violence, but because of the lies that seemed to surround it. Later, his involvement in a fraternity opened another door, this time into rituals, symbols, and hidden inheritances that would lead him into researching Freemasonry in much greater depth. Sometimes awakening does not come all at once. Sometimes it comes in layers, one false promise at a time.

“It was an absolutely major paradigm shift for me... and has forced me to look at the constitution and the founding of this nation in a much more critical light.” (10:03)

The mystery beneath the surface

Craig wisely begins with the language of mystery, pulling from 2 Thessalonians and asking whether the foundations of the United States are more spiritually loaded than most Christians realize. That is where the episode gets especially provocative. Scipio argues that Freemasonry is not just a fraternal club or harmless social network, but a modern expression of a much older spiritual rebellion, one that promises enlightenment, self-perfection, and power apart from God.

Whether listeners agree with every historical claim or not, the deeper challenge lands hard: Christians must learn to ask what kind of story a symbol is telling. A cross calls us to die. A flag calls us to rally. A secret oath calls us to conceal. Those are not small differences. And once we stop treating public life as neutral, we may begin to see how easily spiritual compromise wears respectable clothes.

“This is really the oldest heresy... the same temptation that the serpent tempted Eve with... ‘ye shall be like gods.’” (14:25)

Power loves secrecy, Jesus works in the light

One of the clearest themes in this conversation is that power protects itself. Secret societies, elite networks, and mutual loyalty structures are useful precisely because they shield influence from public accountability. That is one reason the discussion of the Morgan Affair matters so much in the episode. For Scipio, it becomes a case study in how a relatively small group can exercise outsized influence through shared secrecy, political relationships, and cultural fear.

That raises a very Christian question: what kind of kingdom does Jesus build? Not one held together by hidden handshakes, blood oaths, and carefully managed access. The Kingdom of God moves in truth, confession, mercy, and open proclamation. Jesus says let your yes be yes. Government says keep the inner circle protected. Jesus washes feet. Systems of domination guard the ladder.

“A more perfect agent for the devising and execution of conspiracies against church or state could scarcely have been conceived.” (11:05, quoting Charles Francis Adams)

Why Christians still cling to government

Maybe the most sobering part of the episode is not the discussion of Freemasonry itself. It is the repeated question underneath it: why do Christians keep trusting the very systems that train them away from Jesus? Craig returns more than once to the frustration of seeing believers recognize evil in the abstract, yet continue supporting government in practice. We can spot corruption, but we still want our side to run it.

And that may be the real spiritual danger here. We like visible strength. We like belonging. We like the feeling that if the right people held the levers, things would finally become righteous. But Jesus never told us to seize Caesar and clean him up. He told us to love enemies, tell the truth, reject hypocrisy, and follow Him. That path is slower. It is less glamorous. It gives us less control. Maybe that is why it feels so hard.

False light and true light

Late in the conversation, Craig asks directly about the guest’s claim that Masonic thought points toward Luciferian themes. However listeners hear that part of the discussion, the contrast that follows is deeply Christian and worth sitting with: what counts as light? Is it secret knowledge? Elite access? Self-deification? Or is it Christ Himself, the true Light who enters the world without coercion, spectacle, or domination?

That contrast matters far beyond this topic. Every age has its version of “further light.” New techniques. New access. New power. New ways for humanity to save itself. But Jesus does not offer enlightenment as a ladder for the strong. He offers Himself to the poor in spirit, the meek, the merciful, and the peacemakers. He does not flatter our pride. He crucifies it.

“What do you most desire? Not Christ, but the further light in masonry...” (53:17)

No king but Christ still matters

By the end, the conversation widens back out. Freemasonry may be the subject, but allegiance is the deeper issue. What are we really trusting? What stories have formed us? What are we willing to overlook because the symbols feel familiar and the system feels normal?

This episode does not ask us to become obsessed with hidden things. It asks us to become faithful in plain things. Tell the truth. Refuse idolatry. Be skeptical of power. Measure every claim, symbol, and system against Jesus. If something needs secrecy, coercion, and flattery to survive, it probably does not belong to the Kingdom.

And maybe that is the final invitation here: stop chasing the machinery of government and return to the Lamb. The Church does not need better hidden networks. It needs clearer allegiance.

🤝Connect with Scipio Eruditus🤝

• Substack: Dispatches from Reality — dfreality.substack.com

• YouTube: Dispatches From Reality / @ScipioEruditus

• Podcast: Dispatches from Reality - Narrated (Spotify and Apple Podcasts)

Highlights & Takeaways

• Patriotism can feel holy until lived experience reveals how deeply government depends on myth.

• Hidden rituals and public symbols both disciple people; neither is neutral.

• Jesus builds His Kingdom in truth and light, not secrecy and elite protection.

• The temptation to “be like gods” still shows up anywhere power is pursued apart from God.

• Christians often condemn corruption in theory while still defending it when their tribe benefits.

• “Further light” is a dangerous promise when it pulls us away from Christ, the true Light.

• The real issue is not curiosity about secret societies, but clarity about allegiance.

• No reform of government can replace the call to simple obedience to Jesus.

Listen

Listen for the deeper thread running through the whole conversation: not just Freemasonry, but the way power forms our imagination and teaches us what to trust.

Reflect

Ask yourself where your own loyalties have been shaped more by national myth, institutional respectability, or cultural fear than by the words of Jesus.

Read

Read 2 Thessalonians 2:7, Genesis 3, John 1, and Matthew 5–7. Notice the contrast between mystery, false light, and the way of Christ.

Practice

Take one symbol, slogan, or civic ritual you have always treated as normal, and honestly ask: does this move me closer to the Lamb, or closer to the logic of government?

Episode Timestamps:

(0:00) Opening the question: Freemasonry, Christianity, and the state

• Craig’s curiosity and caution

• Searching for truth beyond documentaries and TV narratives

(1:15) Meeting Scipio Eruditus

• Pseudonym and writing background

• Long-form essays as method

• Entering the subject through research, not spectacle

(2:12) War, patriotism, and the breaking of trust

• Air Force service after 9/11

• Afghanistan as paradigm shift

• Propaganda, freedom-talk, disillusionment

(5:16) Fraternities as a gateway into deeper questions

• Former membership in Fiji Fraternity

• Masonic overlap in ritual and symbolism

• Secret oaths, handshakes, initiation patterns

(6:43) The initiation experience that shook him

• Hooded transport to a lodge

• Sense of dread, evil, spiritual unease

• Checkerboard floor, all-seeing eye, symbols everywhere

(8:28) Freemasonry and the making of the modern world

• History hidden in plain sight

• Influence on the last 300 years

• Mainline scholarship, not just fringe material

(9:24) Patriotism losing its innocence

• “American chauvinist” past

• Scales falling from the eyes

• Constitution and founding myths reconsidered

(10:14) The “mystery” question

• 2 Thessalonians 2 as framing text

• Freemasonry as hidden foundation

• Cornerstones, symbols, and spiritual undercurrents

(11:05) Secret societies and conspiracy against church and state

• Charles Francis Adams quote

• Elite men sworn to secrecy

• Bloody oaths, hierarchy, insulation from accountability

(12:26) Ancient religion, Babylon, and Egypt

• Mystery religion language

• Ritual parallels and symbols

• Ancient rebellion carried forward

(13:32) The unfinished pyramid and “the great work”

• Dollar-bill symbolism

• Human self-perfection apart from God

• Theosis without Christ, rebellion dressed as progress

(14:25) The oldest heresy returns

• Genesis 3 and “ye shall be like gods”

• False light, false liberation

• Christ vs self-divinization

(18:04) Lower ranks, hidden knowledge, and the shield of charity

• “We do good works” defense

• Scouting for the amenable

• Ignorance below the top levels

(29:01) Why such a small group carries so much influence

• Elite appeal, movers and shakers

• Influence on state and Christian imagination

• Surface-level Christianity confronted

(30:30) The Morgan Affair

• Competing public narratives

• Kidnapping and cover-up claims

• John Quincy Adams as outspoken critic

(31:46) Political dominion and suppression of scandal

• Public press influence

• Governors, senators, secret orders

• Small network, outsized power

(34:57) Support the Bad Roman Project

(49:09) Symbols on the currency

• Subtle and bold at once

• Masonic imagery in plain sight

• Public apathy, normalized corruption

(50:39) Allegiance, Lucifer, and false light

• Craig’s question about satanic allegiance

• Digging into Masonic literature

• Albert Pike and the language of light

(53:17) “Further light in masonry”

• Oath language contrasted with Christ

• Morning star imagery

• False knowledge vs true light

(58:58) Is Freemasonry still driving government today?

• Influence changing form

• Other occult groups taking cultural space

• Institution fading, deeper logic remaining

(59:17) Can Christians make government righteous?

• Voting to “improve” Caesar

• State reform vs Kingdom fidelity

• The limits of political salvation

(1:12:20) Where to find Scipio’s work

• Dispatches from Reality on Substack

• Weekly roundups and long-form essays

• YouTube: @ScipioEruditus

• Podcast: Dispatches from Reality - Narrated (Spotify and Apple Podcasts)

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Related Episodes

Related Blog Post

156. Are Rights from God or Government? with Cal Robbins

We use the word freedom so often that it has almost lost its shape. It can mean safety. It can mean privacy. It can mean prosperity. It can mean “leave me alone.” It can also mean “let my side win.”

 In America, freedom is one of those words everybody loves and almost nobody defines.That is why this episode matters. 

Craig opens with the real question right away: does liberty come from government, or does it come from our Creator? And if liberty is a gift from God, then we do not get to talk about it like the state hands it out, manages it, limits it, or takes credit for it. We have to ask a deeper question: what does liberty look like when Jesus, not Caesar, is Lord?

Defining Rightful Liberty

That is where Cal Robbins takes us. He goes back to Thomas Jefferson’s 1819 response to Isaac Tiffany, where Jefferson says the word liberty has been used so many different ways that it no longer gives a clear meaning to the mind. So Jefferson makes a distinction. There is liberty in the broad sense, which Cal treats as freedom, the unobstructed action of our own will. But then there is rightful liberty: the unobstructed action of our own will within the limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others.

That is the thread that holds this whole episode together. Not freedom without limits. Not control dressed up as order. Rightful liberty.

That distinction matters because it exposes the lie at the center of so much of our politics and even so much of our faith talk. We say we want liberty, but what we often want is permission for ourselves and limits for other people. We want freedom when it protects our comfort, then law when other people make us nervous. We want rights when we are talking about our tribe, then rules when we are talking about strangers. Rightful liberty ruins that game. It says the rights I claim for myself belong to my neighbor too.

Equal Rights And The Image Of God

There is a reason this conversation feels heavier than a normal political discussion. It is not just asking whether a system works. It is asking whether we have learned to see other people rightly.

Cal says that once he began to understand rightful liberty, he started to feel sympathy, empathy, even pity where he once might have felt anger or contempt. He says it changed the way he saw people. More than that, he says it brought him back to the teachings of Jesus. He began to see that rightful liberty was not just a political idea but something deeply tied to Christ, to free will, and to the straight and narrow path.

Craig picks up that thread by bringing in Galatians 5:1 and asking whether freedom in Christ might also mean freedom from slavery in a broader sense, even freedom from statism. That move keeps the whole episode from collapsing into civics. This is not a lecture on founding language. It is a wrestling match over whether the liberty we talk about in public life actually matches the freedom Christ calls us into.

If Christ sets people free, why are Christians still so eager to hand themselves over to rulers? Why are we so quick to trust systems of force, systems of control, systems that claim power over image-bearers made by God?

When Liberty Gets Tested

And that is where the episode gets sharp.

Because rightful liberty is not left floating in theory. It gets tested. Slavery comes up quickly, and Craig is blunt: he does not care whether slavery was legal, because legal does not mean moral. That line becomes a door into one of the hardest and clearest parts of the episode. If a law can bless something as evil as slavery, then Christians cannot pretend the law is the final measure of justice.

That same line of thought runs straight into immigration. Not as a side issue, but as a test of whether we really mean what we say about liberty. Craig points to the border as an imaginary line and asks why crossing it suddenly makes a human being “illegal.” Cal pushes further and says denying people free movement because the state says so is not liberty at all. He calls it a rejection of rightful liberty, a rejection of what God gave.

His logic is simple and hard to get around: if I claim a natural right to move, but deny that same right to somebody else because the government told me to, then I am putting man’s law above God’s gift. In his words, that is rendering unto Caesar what belongs to God.

Caesar, Voting, And The Tyrant’s Will

The same test shows up again when the conversation turns to voting and “render unto Caesar.” Cal says that when we vote to impose rulers on our neighbors, we are once again rendering unto Caesar what belongs to God.

Craig pushes back on the usual statist use of Matthew 22 and asks the harder question: what actually belongs to Caesar? If my life is God-given, if my rights are God-given, if my neighbor’s dignity is God-given, then what exactly are we handing over when we call the state our authority?

That is why Jefferson’s fuller line matters here too. Rightful liberty is not merely action within the law, because law is often but the tyrant’s will. That one sentence should break apart a lot of lazy Christian trust in the state. Christians cannot hide behind legality. We cannot keep saying “it’s the law” as if that settles the matter.

Jesus And The Shape Of True Liberty

What keeps this from turning into a cold political argument is that it keeps coming back to Jesus.

Cal says outright that rightful liberty became, for him, almost synonymous with Christ. He says Jesus was an excellent example of how to live in rightful liberty. That is not a throwaway line. It is the heart of the whole episode.

Jesus never forced people into discipleship. He never used power the way rulers do. He never treated people as objects to manage. He told the truth, loved His neighbor, and refused the kingdoms of the world when they were offered to Him. Rightful liberty, as this episode describes it, is free will exercised in the light of God and in the presence of neighbors who bear the same dignity we do.

That is why Cal can connect rightful liberty to Christ, free will, and even the path toward salvation. It is not just about politics. It is about what kind of people we are becoming.

The Church Must Tell The Truth Again

Craig also presses on the witness of the Church, especially the cruelty so often seen online from people who claim Christ. That part matters because the failure here is not just political confusion. It is spiritual contradiction.

If we say “No King but Christ,” but still crave rulers, still cheer domination, still use fear as our moral compass, then what are we really confessing? Rightful liberty does not just expose bad policy. It exposes a damaged discipleship that keeps trusting Caesar to do what only love, truth, and self-government under God can do.

By the end, the episode lands in a place that is both simple and demanding. Rightful liberty is the proper exercise of free will under God. It is not limitless freedom. It is freedom with moral shape. It is the refusal to violate the equal rights of others. It is liberty disciplined by love.

That is why Craig can boil the whole thing down to a plain phrase: don’t hurt people, don’t take their stuff. Crude maybe, but clear. And clarity is hard to come by in a world where we are constantly told that coercion is compassion, legality is morality, and empire is order.

“No King but Christ” means more here than a slogan against nationalism. It means no one gets to claim ownership over what God already gave. Not the president. Not the court. Not the border. Not the ballot. Not the church when it acts like an arm of the state.

Connect with Cal Robbins

• Republic Broadcasting

• Michael Gaddy’s Substack

Highlights & Takeaways

• Rightful liberty is not doing whatever we want.

• Rightful liberty means acting within the equal rights of others.

• Rights come from God, not government.

• Legal does not mean moral.

• Borders, ballots, and rulers fail the test when they violate God-given dignity.

• Cal connects rightful liberty to Christ, free will, and the straight and narrow path.

• Jefferson’s warning still stands: law can become the tyrant’s will.
  “No King but Christ” means we stop giving Caesar credit for gifts that came from God.

Listen & Reflect

Listen for how early the episode defines rightful liberty. Everything else builds from that one distinction.

Reflect: Where do we call something freedom when we really mean control? Where do we demand rights for ourselves that we deny to others?

Read: Galatians 5:1, Matthew 22:15–22, and 1 Samuel 8. Then hold them next to Jefferson’s definition of rightful liberty and sit with the tension.

Practice:  Galatians 5:1, Matthew 22:15–22, and 1 Samuel 8. Before you defend any law, policy, border, or political habit this week, ask one question: does this honor the equal rights of others, or violate them?

Episode Timestamps:

0:00 Rightful Liberty

• rights from God, not government

• Golden Rule

• Cal Robbins

1:04 Safety Over Freedom

• people want safety, not liberty

• state narratives

• Minnesota shooting, Venezuela

2:20 Cal’s Liberty Journey

• Ron Paul movement
  pocket Constitution days

• corruption in the system

3:45 Jefferson’s Definition

• many meanings of liberty

• rightful liberty takes shape

• Thomas Jefferson

• Isaac Tiffany

6:21 Equal Rights Of Others

• liberty within limits

• no man above another

• equal rights for all mankind

• Declaration of Independence

8:24 Freedom Vs. Liberty

• freedom without limits

• taking your car example

• limits set by God, not man

• property rights

9:27 Sympathy And Empathy

• seeing your neighbor as equal
  compassion grows when statism fades

• Craig’s old neocon days

11:12 Rightful Liberty And Christ

• pity instead of hatred

• free will

• straight and narrow path

• Jesus Christ

12:50 Freedom In Christ

• freedom from sin, slavery, statism

• Roman oppression

• Galatians 5:1

14:20 Slavery And Immigration

• legal doesn’t mean moral

• imaginary lines and free movement

• Patrick Henry

• Lion of Liberty

15:12 Rejecting God’s Gift

• borders as rejection of rightful liberty

• natural right to travel

• liberty as a gift from God

16:45 Image Of God

• no human becomes less human by law

• “illegal” people still bear God’s image

• God’s law over state law

17:30 Slavery Never Really Left

• chattel slavery, fiscal slavery

• debt and bondage

• posterity

• future generations

18:25 Voting And Coercion

• ballot box as force

• imposing rulers on neighbors

• voting

20:00 Render Unto Caesar

• what actually belongs to Caesar?

• rights from God

• gifts we hand to the state

• Matthew 22

22:45 War And Repentance

• blood on our hands

• owning past support for violence

• War on Terror

• Abby Neer

24:07 Unconditional Love

• love beyond comprehension

• people go out of their way to hate

• God is love

• loving one another

25:15 Broken Christian Witness

• Christians sounding cruel online

• witness to the world

• Church and public life

27:20 One Human Family

• same tribe

• equal dignity

• liberty and neighbor love

30:24 The Golden Rule

• rightful liberty in practice

• Reciprocity

• Jesus

• Confucius

31:30 Rendering To Caesar What Is God’s

• liberty handed over to rulers

• deception dressed as order

• God-given rights

34:00 Jesus Rejected The Kingdoms

• worldly power refused
  service over domination

• temptation of Christ

35:30 Why The World Rejects Us

• Christians not acting like Christ

• public witness problem

• how outsiders see the Church

37:15 Hate Cannot Heal

• unconditional love vs hatred

• good and evil

• what kind of spirit we carry

41:20 No King But Christ

• Christ alone is worthy to rule

• brotherhood over domination

• Kingship of Jesus

43:00 Asking For A King

• people still want rulers

• rejecting God’s rule

• 1 Samuel 8

44:05 What Jesus Never Did

• never imposed His will

• coercion vs discipleship

• WWJD

45:30 The Temptation Of Power

• Satan offers the kingdoms

• Jesus refuses state power

• temptation narrative

47:00 Rights Come From God

• rights not created by paper

• Constitution doesn’t grant liberty

• Creator

• Declaration language

49:45 Proper Exercise Of Liberty

• self-restraint

• rights with limits
  rightful liberty in daily life

53:45 Don’t Hurt People

• don’t take their stuff

• simple moral vision

• Don’t Hurt People and Don’t Take Their Stuff, by Matt Kibbe

54:57 The Full Jefferson Quote

• law is often but the tyrant’s will

• individual rights

• Thomas Jefferson

56:30 Patrick Henry and the Anti-Federalists

• warnings about centralized power

• Constitution skepticism

• Patrick Henry

• anti federalists

57:42 Forensic History

• back to source documents

• letters, speeches, original texts

• Michael Gaddy

• Republic Broadcasting

58:40 Learn The Real History

• history you were never taught

• Substack and classes

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Related Episodes

Related Blog Post

155. The State of the Holy Union: Is the President Barabbas? with Paul Lazzaroni

Sometimes we say we follow Jesus… but we still want a “strong guy” to save us. We want someone who will fight, punish our enemies, and “fix the country.” But what if that hope is closer to Barabbas than to Jesus?

In this episode, Craig talks with Paul Lazzaroni (Cross and Cornerstone / No King but Christ Network) about a big idea from Paul’s article, “Is Trump Barabbas?” The point isn’t mainly about one politician. It’s about a mindset. The crowd picked Barabbas. Someone tied to violence and revolt instead of Jesus. And if we’re honest, we can still want that kind of “savior” today. So we ask: Are we being shaped by the Kingdom of God… or by the kingdoms of this world?

The Barabbas Temptation

Barabbas wasn’t just “some other guy.” He stood for a certain kind of rescue: power, force, control. The kind of rescue that feels fast and strong.

Paul and Craig talk about how easy it is for Christians to drift into that way of thinking. We may not say, “Give us Barabbas,” out loud. But we can say it with our cravings. Craving a leader who will “win” for us, crush the “bad guys,” and make our fears go away.

Jesus doesn’t offer that kind of victory. He offers a cross. And that’s the problem… and the invitation.

When Politics Becomes Discipleship

Paul shares that he doesn’t vote and tries not to live inside political arguments. Not because he doesn’t care, but because he doesn’t want politics to become what shapes him. Craig comes at it from another angle: he’s loud about this stuff because he’s watching Christians tie their faith to state power, and it keeps hurting people.

Here’s one of the main questions underneath the whole episode:

If Jesus teaches enemy-love, mercy, and humility… why do Christians so often chase power, punishment, and control?

And another question:

When we say “we’re protecting our country,” are we protecting our neighbors, or protecting our own comfort?

God’s Slow Work: From Slavery Thinking to Freedom Living

Craig asks Paul to lay down some Bible groundwork, especially around Israel leaving Egypt and being formed in the wilderness. Paul’s point is simple: people who lived under slavery don’t suddenly know how to live free. They have to be healed. Re-trained. Re-shaped.

That changes how we think about Scripture and law. Instead of reading the Old Testament like “God’s dream is control,” Paul points toward a story of God patiently forming a people who learn justice, care for the vulnerable, and a different way to live together.

That matters today because Christian nationalism often sounds like Egypt thinking with Bible words:

 “Force people to be good.”
“Control society.”
“Win at all costs.”

But God’s way is slower, and it looks a lot more like Jesus.

Modern Babylon: A Place or a Pattern?

The Bible uses “Babylon” as a picture of empire: a system that trains people to trust power, money, fear, and violence.

Craig and Paul ask whether America slips into acting like “a modern Babylon.” Not as a simple insult, but as a warning. Because Babylon isn’t only “out there.” It can be in us. It can shape what we think “safety” means. It can shape what we think “good” means. It can even shape what we think “Christian” means.

So we’re left with a hard but honest question: Are we trying to build God’s Kingdom… or are we helping Babylon feel holy?

The Kind of King We Keep Asking For

One of the hardest parts of this conversation is realizing this: we don’t only want safety. We often want control. We want a king who will make the world feel simple again: good guys vs. bad guys, winners vs. losers.

But Jesus keeps refusing to be that kind of king. He doesn’t grab power. He doesn’t build His kingdom with threats. He doesn’t save the world by hurting the “right people.” That’s why Barabbas is such a strong picture. Barabbas is the kind of “rescuer” the crowd understands.

 Jesus is the kind they don’t.

So the question is not just, “Who do we vote for?” It’s, “What kind of king do we secretly want?”

Good News Has A Target

Craig and Paul circle back to a simple test that cuts through a lot of noise: Is it good news for the poor? For the oppressed? For the outsider?

Jesus’ mission isn’t vague. He doesn’t just say “be nice.” He announces freedom, healing, mercy, and justice. That kind of good news has real faces: the hungry, the prisoner, the immigrant, the exploited, the outcast. If our “Christian” politics mainly protects the comfortable and punishes the vulnerable, something is backwards.

This is where Christian nationalism gets exposed. It often sounds like “God and country,” but it doesn’t always sound like Jesus.

No King But Christ Means We Live Different

If we say “Jesus is Lord,” that can’t just be a slogan. It has to show up in how we treat people, how we talk about enemies, and what we’re willing to do without the government’s help.

“No King but Christ” doesn’t mean we stop caring about the world. It means we stop believing power is the savior. It means we stop acting like fear gets the final word. And it means we practice the Kingdom right now, small, real, local, and brave.

Not with a flag. Not with threats. Not with “winning.” But with the kind of love Jesus actually taught.

Highlights & Takeaways

• The “Barabbas mindset” is wanting a savior who uses power and force instead of the way of Jesus.

• This isn’t just about one politician—it’s about what we crave when we’re afraid.

• If politics is shaping our hearts more than Jesus is, something is off.

• God’s story in Scripture is often slow formation, not quick domination.

• “Babylon” is an empire pattern—fear, control, and violence dressed up as “order.”

• A good test: Is what we’re supporting good news for the poor, the oppressed, and the outsider? If not, it probably isn’t Jesus’ way.

• Following Jesus means we don’t need a flag to tell us who we are.

🤝 Connect with Paul Lazzaroni 🤝

• Cross and Cornerstone (Website / Blog + Articles)

• C&C Facebook Page

• No King but Christ Network (Paul’s work is featured there): nokingbutchristnetwork.com

• Paul’s Personal Pages

• Instagram

• Facebook

• YouTube

• TikTok

Listen & Reflect

Listen: Pay attention to the moments where you feel the pull toward “we need a strong leader.” What emotion is underneath that: fear, anger, exhaustion?

Reflect: Where have we accepted the idea that “the state will love our neighbor for us”? What would it look like to take that responsibility back?

Read: Re-read Luke 23 (Jesus and Barabbas). Then read Matthew 5 (especially enemy-love). Ask: Which way looks more like my life right now?

Practice: Do one small, real act of love that doesn’t depend on elections: help someone, forgive someone, feed someone, show up for someone. Let Jesus shape your reflexes.

Episode Timestamps:

(0:00) Jesus or Caesar?

• state power / coercion

• violence vs cross-shaped love

• allegiance, obedience, faithful resistance

(0:45) Meet Paul Lazzaroni

• No King but Christ Network

• Paul’s background + why he’s here

• Cross and Cornerstone connection

(1:27) “Is Trump Barabbas?”

• title as provocation

• not about one person

• Barabbas as symbol / warning

(2:20) The Barabbas Mindset

• strongman savior instinct

• fear → anger → control

• “revolt for us” vs “take up your cross”

(8:36) Why Paul Doesn’t Vote

• informed vs formed

• political identity vs Kingdom identity

• stepping back from the outrage machine

(17:57) Wilderness First

• Exodus / slavery mindset

• formation before “law”

• Leviticus groundwork, God re-shaping a people

(47:30) Modern Babylon

• Babylon as system / pattern

• empire imagination

• fear, control, violence dressed up as “order”

(47:57) Mindsets and Mimic Kingdoms

• tribal belonging / “our team”

• empire logic: power promises salvation

• winning vs faithfulness, control vs Spirit

(53:33) What Is Cross and Cornerstone?

• website + blog/articles hub 

• learning-in-public: what Paul’s studying + wrestling through

• resources for folks not finding this in church

(55:32) Why “Cornerstone”?

• rejected stone / Jesus as foundation

• Paul’s story: rejecting, returning, grace

• identity built on Christ, not empire

(57:16) Writing, Learning, Humility

• learning through writing

• “journey of humility”

• Scripture forming us (not agendas)

Sit with Discomfort

If this episode made you uncomfortable, you’re not alone. That might be the Spirit pulling us away from the crowd, and back toward Jesus. 

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Related Blog Post

154. Kingdom Politics vs. Chaos: Can a Voluntary Society Reflect Jesus?

“What if the problem isn’t that we haven’t found the right rulers, but that we keep assuming someone needs to rule us at all?”

There’s a moment that shows up in almost every conversation about politics and faith. It usually comes right after someone says, “Okay, but what about bad people?” The room tightens. The air shifts. Because underneath the question isn’t policy, it’s fear. Fear of chaos. Fear of losing control. Fear that without someone in charge, everything falls apart.

This episode lives inside that moment.

Craig sits down with economist and author Bob Murphy to talk about Bob’s short book, Chaos Theory. On the surface, it’s about how law, courts, and public safety might work without a centralized state. But that’s not really why Craig wanted the conversation. What he’s really asking is something Christians rarely slow down long enough to face: Why are we so sure that force is necessary for order, and what does that say about what we believe Jesus actually taught?

Bob doesn’t come in trying to convince anyone. He comes in careful. Thoughtful. Almost pastoral. He knows the ideas he’s talking about can trigger alarm bells. So instead of starting with labels or slogans, he starts with a question that keeps circling back throughout the episode: Should anyone be allowed to do things that would be wrong for everyone else?

Craig Meets Bob Murphy

Craig opens with honesty. He’s familiar with these ideas. He’s heard them before. But he also knows where people get stuck. It’s not usually in theory. It’s in the details.

“How does this actually work?” Craig asks. “Not in a perfect world, but in this one.”

Bob nods. He doesn’t promise a world without sin or harm. “The goal isn’t utopia,” he says. “The goal is removing what I call an institutionalized aggressor.”

That phrase lands heavy.

Bob explains that every system has problems because people have problems. The difference is whether the system itself assumes that violence and threats are necessary tools. A voluntary society, he says, doesn’t eliminate wrongdoing. It eliminates the idea that some people are allowed to do wrong by design.

Craig pauses there, not because he disagrees, but because he recognizes how deeply that assumption runs. For Christians, this isn’t an abstract argument. It cuts straight into how we’ve learned to think about safety, authority, and obedience.

Why Bob Steps Around the Word “Anarchy”

Early in the conversation, Bob explains why he rarely leads with the word “anarchist,” especially among Christians. The word comes loaded. Too many images. Too many misunderstandings.

“I actually believe in order,” Bob says. “I just don’t think order requires rulers.”

Instead, he uses the phrase voluntary society. It sounds less dramatic, but it’s more accurate. A voluntary society isn’t about tearing everything down. It’s about cooperation without coercion. Rules without rulers. Agreement without threats.

Craig connects this to Christian nationalism almost instinctively. When Christians say “Jesus is King,” do we really believe it? Or do we still assume someone else needs to enforce things for Him? Jesus refused power when it was offered. He didn’t seize control. He invited people to follow.

That contrast lingers.

A Boring Word That Changes Everything

Midway through the episode, Craig opens Bob’s book and lands on a section that doesn’t sound very spiritual at all: contracts.

It almost feels like a letdown at first. No revolution. No big speeches. Just agreements.

But Bob leans in. Contracts, he explains, are how most of our lives already work. Jobs. Housing. Insurance. Services. We trust them not because someone is holding a gun, but because incentives, reputation, and accountability matter.

“Insurance companies don’t want to write million-dollar checks,” Bob says. “So they care about safety. They ask questions. They check training. They look at track records.”

Craig pushes back with the concern many listeners will feel. What about the vulnerable? What about people without power or money?

Bob doesn’t pretend this system fixes everything. He simply points out that our current system already fails the vulnerable, often while claiming moral authority. A voluntary system doesn’t solve sin. It just stops pretending that force is love.

Consent, Compliance, and the Ballot Box

One of the most uncomfortable turns in the conversation comes when Bob challenges the idea that voting equals consent.

“In normal life,” Bob says, “consent means you can say no. You can walk away.”

You can’t really do that with the state.

Markets depend on persuasion. Governments depend on compliance. Craig lets that contrast sit without rushing to resolve it. Because Jesus never appealed to majorities. He appealed to hearts. To repentance. To truth.

“If we wouldn’t do this to our neighbor,” Craig reflects, “why are we okay with a system that does?”

That question doesn’t get answered. And that’s the point.

Live the Question Jesus Calls us To Ask

This episode doesn’t give you a platform to stand on. It gives you a question to carry. And following Jesus has always meant carrying questions that cost us something.

If this conversation unsettled you, sit with that. Keep asking what it really means to follow a crucified King.

🤝 Connect with Bob Murphy 🤝

• Read the Book: Chaos Theory (buy on Amazon), Chaos Theory (pdf)

• Bob’s other books: Contra Krugman: Smashing the Errors of America’s Most Famous Keynesian; Lessons for the Young Economist; Choice: Cooperation, Enterprise, and Human Action

• Bob’s Podcasts: Human Action Podcast and The Bob Murphy Show

• X (Twitter): @BobMurphyEcon

• Bob’s YouTube Channel:@BobMurphyAncap

Highlights & Takeaways

• A voluntary society doesn’t promise a perfect world

• It refuses to give moral exemptions to people in power

• Order and control are not the same thing

• Consent requires the real option to walk away

• Jesus never modeled threat-based transformation

• Christian nationalism trusts force where Jesus trusted faithfulness

• You don’t need a political plan to name a moral problem

Listen & Reflect

Listen: Pay attention to where fear enters the conversation. What are we afraid would happen if control loosened?

Reflect: Where have we accepted systems that do things we would never justify in our own lives?

Read: Read Matthew 5–7 slowly. Notice which teachings feel “impractical,”and ask why.

Practice: This week, choose persuasion over pressure in one real situation. Let go of leverage and see what remains.

Episode Timestamps:

(00:00) Voluntary Society: “Wouldn’t That Be Chaos?”

• bad actors, security, fear of “chaos”

• why Bob Murphy + Chaos Theory today

• frame: Christ over the state

(00:45) Welcome Bob Murphy

• Craig’s intro + how they got connected (Dominic)

• Episodes with Dominic

• Judas the OG Christian Nationalist: Why Imposters Are Worse Than Opponents with Domenic Scarcella EP #147

• Christianity Unpacked in "Good Neighbor, Bad Citizen" with Domenic Scarcella EP #97

(06:19) Why Bob Avoids the “Anarchist” Label

• two kinds of “anarchists”

• “I have a king… not an earthly king”

• prefers “voluntary society” language

(07:19) Sermon on the Mount + Politics That Fit Jesus

• “dovetail… best with what Jesus told Christians”

• Craig’s shift from “looking for somebody to vote for”

• discipleship vs ideology

(10:57) “I Don’t Have to Have a Plan”

• refusing the election-pressure test

• “this current system… is crazy”

• Craig: “yeah, you’re allowed”

(11:33) Salsa Break: No King but Christ

• put the politics down

• support the show

• “no king but Christ” hook

(12:14) Chaos Theory: Contracts

• why contracts matter in a voluntary society

• how contracts already matter

(14:37) “Institutionalized Aggressor” + Imposed Rules

• no “my guy loses → stuff imposed on me”

• what the booklet is trying to show

• contracts “on the front end”

(33:14) Insurance as Due Diligence

• “standard package” idea

• insurance companies = background checks

• malpractice example bridge

(34:03) Incentives: Background Checks + Risk

• “we might have to pay $2 million”

• vetting training, history, reputation

• why incentives shape behavior

(46:57) “Give the Experts Guns” Problem

• “very naive” assumption

• experts can be the bad guys

• quick support spotfund message + Memphis charities

(58:27) “Aren’t Insurance Companies the Government?”

• “they seem like they play an important part”

• Bob: not government because it’s voluntary

• competition + no power to block new entrants

(1:03:24) Where to Find Bob + What He’s Building

• how to get Chaos Theory (PDF or physical)

• Human Action Podcast + other work

(1:04:22) Wrap-Up + Possible Part 2

• “small book… packed tight”

• Bob open to coming back

• Craig: “we didn’t get to cover everything”

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153. Star-Spangled Jesus: Waking up From Christian Nationalism with April Ajoy

What happens when we wrap the cross in a flag and call it faith?

What happens when our love for country grows louder than our love for enemies?

This is a wake-up story. It is about good people who meant well. It is about churches that wanted to do the right thing. It is about a path that seemed holy and strong, but slowly bent us away from Jesus. It is also about grace. How the Spirit opens our eyes. How laughter can heal shame. How the Kingdom looks nothing like the empire.

Our guide is April Ajoy. She grew up inside this world. She knows the songs. She knows the slogans. She also knows the moment when you hear Jesus whisper, “My Kingdom is not of this world,” and it finally lands. In her words, most people who live this way “just think they’re being good Christians.”

Inside the story, it felt like faith

If you grew up in a church like Craig’s or April’s, politics did not feel like politics. It felt like faith. It felt like doing your duty for God. You listened to your pastor. You loved your country. You voted for the “Christian” team. No one said, “We are Christian nationalists.” People said, “We love Jesus. We love America. We want what’s right.”

That is why this is so sticky. You can be sincere. You can be kind. You can also be discipled by a party and not know it. April names it out loud: the biggest problem is not people with evil plans; it’s people who honestly think they’re walking with Jesus while they carry the empire’s sword in their other hand.

Craig admits he once called the GOP “God’s own party.” He laughs now, because he remembers repeating it like a memorized verse. It was the air they breathed.

When you are inside the story, it all makes sense. When Jesus brings you outside, you start seeing the rot. You notice how the fruit tastes. You notice how fear leads the dance. And then you begin to change.

Craig meets April, and something clicks

Craig found April’s work online. He heard her tell stories that felt like his own. Texas. Tennessee. Sports teams. Church life. And a slow shift from party loyalty to King Jesus. He listened to Star-Spangled Jesus and felt like he was hearing pieces of his life sung back to him.

This is how change often starts. Not with a fight. Not with a headline. With a voice that sounds like home, saying true things in a kind way.

Humor tells the truth without the knives

April uses humor on purpose. Not to mock. Not to dunk. To lower the heat. To make space for honesty. She talks about a public “Jesus juke,” where someone tries to rush past hard facts with a holy-sounding line. She tells a story about a famous post that tried to make the Epstein files into a quick lesson about God’s “files.” It was a dodge. It was a “Jesus juke.” Craig loved the term the moment he heard it and wrote it down.

Humor helps. It lets you say, “Hey, we all do this.” It lets people breathe and listen. It reminds us that repentance is good news, not a beating.

When the flag walks into church

Craig remembers the day his church stood for the Pledge of Allegiance in a Sunday service. They honored the troops. They sang “patriotic psalms.” It felt normal. It felt right. It felt like “we are a Christian nation.” Years later he calls it what it was: a rival allegiance sitting next to the cross. He did not see it then. He sees it now.

He says the title of April’s book sticks because it pictures what he saw: Jesus wrapped in a flag. It looks bold. It feels safe. But it slowly swaps the words of the Sermon on the Mount for the words of the party platform. It takes your heart a few inches at a time, until the beat is different and you barely notice.

April nods. She has seen the same thing. She has seen pulpits become podiums. She has seen the cross used as a logo for campaigns. She has seen how easy it is to confuse God’s Kingdom with earthly kingdoms. Jesus said His Kingdom is not from here. We forget that line at our own risk.

“We just thought we were the good guys”

Most of us did not wake up one day and choose empire over Kingdom. We chose “the good guys.” We believed the horror stories about the other side. We assumed force was needed to save what we loved. April tells a story from grad school. After watching a fear-heavy film, she and friends made a Romney campaign video. They thought the nation was on the brink. Fear felt like faith. It also felt normal in their circles.

Looking back, she calls the film “propaganda.” That word can sting. But it fits. Propaganda is anything that trains you to trust Caesar more than Christ, to see neighbors as problems, and to baptize the use of force. Once you name it, you can step out of it.

“Good Christians” vs. the Kingdom of Jesus

April’s simple line keeps echoing: people caught in Christian nationalism do not think they are in a movement. They think they are being faithful. That is the danger. If you believe this is faithfulness, you will double down whenever someone questions it. You will feel attacked. You will defend your team as if you are defending Jesus.

But Jesus did not run for office. He did not build a voting bloc. He did not command His friends to rule others. He told them to love enemies, bless those who curse, forgive seventy-seven times, and pick up a cross. That is not a platform. That is a life.

The early church read the Sermon on the Mount like marching orders. They did not ask Caesar to pass better laws. They became better neighbors. They cared for the poor. They refused to kill. They told the truth. They shared what they had. They chose the Lamb over the sword.

When our modern faith looks more like a campaign than a cross, it is time to repent. Not with shame, but with joy. Jesus is better than any flag.

The line we cross without noticing

How do you know you have drifted from faith into nationalism? April offers a simple test. If you believe something is a sin, you live by that belief. But when you try to make the state force your belief on your neighbor, you have stepped into nationalist territory. The “you can’t do that because it violates my belief” move is a tell. It shifts the center from Christ to control.

Craig applies that to hot-button issues, including Roe v. Wade. He says even if you disagree with abortion, the government should not have power over someone else’s body. “Why don’t we just leave it between the doctor and the person?” he asks. “Everybody’s solution is always government.”

That is a brave thing to say out loud in our times. It is also a clean way to test our hearts. Are we trying to disciple our neighbor or dominate them? Are we offering help or passing a law? Jesus never forced anyone into the Kingdom. He invited and loved.

From the feed to the table

Another test is where we spend our energy. If our “discipleship” happens mainly on social media, we will start to sound like social media. Craig confesses he used to fight online. He learned that face-to-face talks feel different. Looking someone in the eye slows you down. It builds trust. It shifts you from points to people. That is where hearts change.

It does not mean the internet is useless. People watch. People listen. Seeds get planted. But if we want to look like Jesus, we will need more tables than threads. We will need more meals than memes. We will need to move from “owning” to “serving.”

Why laughter matters when the truth hurts

Shame shuts people down. Fear makes people dig in. Humor does something different. It opens a window. It lets light in without burning. That is what April is doing. She names things like “Jesus jukes” and smiles. She lets us see the dodge, but she gives us room to breathe. We are all tempted to spiritualize what we do not want to face. Laughter helps us face it without hating ourselves. Craig’s reaction says it all: “I’ve never heard that before. I love it.”

Humor, used well, is a form of mercy. It is truth with a warm hand on your shoulder. It makes change feel possible.

“No King but Christ” is not a slogan; it is a path

Talk is easy. Slogans are easy. The Kingdom is a way of life. Here is what it looks like in plain steps:

• Read the words of Jesus out loud. Slowly. Matthew 5–7. Luke 6. John 13–17. Let them shape you.

• Bless the person you dislike. Do one small act of help with no strings.

• Stop baptizing your anger. If you post in rage, repent to the person you targeted.

• Refuse coercion as a tool. Offer help, not control.

• Do your politics at a table. Eat with people who vote different. Listen twice as much as you speak.

• Keep your eyes on the cross, not the flag. The flag changes. The Kingdom does not.

These are small, human moves. But that is the point. The Kingdom is yeast and seeds. It grows in simple soil.

The difference that makes all the difference

Here is the heart of it. We are not calling people to hate their country. We are calling people to love Jesus more than their country. To refuse to hurt neighbors in His name. To stop using the state to get our way. To trust slow love over fast force. To pick up a cross instead of a club.

This is not soft. It is strong. Enemy-love is harder than war talk. Forgiveness is harder than payback. Honesty is harder than spin. But this is the way.

When the church remembers this, the church starts to look like Jesus again.

Highlights & Takeaways

• Christian nationalism often feels like faith from the inside; many think they’re being faithful to Jesus, not political.

• Symbols preach. A flag beside the cross tells a story about who is really in charge. Craig lived it before he saw it.

• Humor heals. Naming the “Jesus juke” helps us face spin without shame and move toward truth together.

• Coercion is not the Christian way. Loving neighbors means refusing to force them to live by our convictions through the state.

• Stop outsourcing love to Caesar. “Leave it between the doctor and the person” models neighbor-first, Kingdom-first ethics.

• Move from threads to tables. Real change is face to face, not just online.

Listen & Reflect

🎧 Listen: Notice how humor lowers the heat. April’s “Jesus juke” line helps people admit the dodge without feeling attacked. Where might that help in your circle?

💬 Reflect: Have you ever tried to make the state enforce your beliefs on a neighbor? What would it look like to trust Jesus instead of force?

📖 Read: Matthew 5–7 this week. Ask, “Do my politics look like this?”

🤝 Practice: Take one conversation offline. Invite someone you disagree with to coffee. Listen for 15 minutes before you make a single claim.

🤝Connect with April Ajoy:

• Get the book: Star-Spangled Jesus: Leaving Christian Nationalism and Finding A True Faith

  • Listen to the Book on Spotify like Craig did!

• LinkTree

  • Instagram: @aprilajoy

  • Facebook: April Ajoy

  • X (Twitter): @aprilajoyr

  • TikTok: @aprilajoy

• Podcast: The Tim and April Show, YouTube, Instagram, Apple Podcast, Spotify

Episode Timestamps:

(0:00) Waking up from Christian nationalism

• Craig sets the theme and welcomes April Ajoy

• Why this matters for real people in real churches

• What “No King but Christ” means for this talk

(1:04) Finding April’s work

• Craig hears his own story in April’s voice

• Texas, Tennessee, and church culture they both know

• From party loyalty to the way of Jesus

(2:18) “Good Christians” and blind spots

• Most don’t think they’re nationalists; they think they’re faithful

• How the party line can sound like discipleship

• Cracks show when we sit with the Sermon on the Mount

(3:25) April’s current projects

• The Tim and April Show and weekly conversations

• Short videos that name the problem with kindness

• Where to follow April and keep learning

(10:31) Threads vs. tables

• Why online fights feel different than face-to-face talks

• Looking people in the eye builds trust and honesty

• Move from winning points to loving people

(12:48) Flags in the sanctuary

• Pledging in church felt normal at the time

• Symbols preach louder than we think

• Cross first, not country first

(15:05) The “Jesus juke”

• How holy talk can dodge hard truth

• Humor lowers the heat and opens ears

• We can face facts without shame

(18:22) Fear and propaganda

• A movie night that stirred panic

• A DIY campaign video born from fear

• Learning to spot spin dressed up as faith

(26:10) From conviction to control

• The quiet shift from “I won’t” to “you can’t”

• Why coercion betrays the way of Christ

• Invitation beats force every time

(30:44) Stop outsourcing love to Caesar

• “Leave it between the doctor and the person”

• Government power is a blunt tool

• Choose neighbor-first solutions

(45:50) Where to find April

• TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook @AprilAjoy

• Gentle tone, clear truth, steady practice

• Learn in small bites all week

(52:12) No King but Christ

• What faithfulness looks like in a land of flags

• Small acts of love over loud culture wars

• A simple path back to Jesus

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152. Did Government Authority Justify the Killing of Renee Nicole Good? A Christian View with Larken Rose

Was the shooting of a Christian mother of three, Renee Nicole Good, murder or self-defense? When Christians cheer for state violence, can we claim it is God we actually worship?

Craig sits down with author and provocateur Larken Rose, not to tally clips or dunk on strangers online, but to face a deeper sickness: our culture’s worship of “authority.” The story that played out on an icy street – ICE agents, a woman in a car, three bullets – exposes something far older than any badge. It exposes a rival religion. In that light, this episode is not merely commentary. It’s a mirror for the American church and a call to return to the Sermon on the Mount. 

A House Divided: Flag or Cross?

Followers of Jesus have always had to choose between two rival kingdoms. One hangs its hope on power, control, and the threat of punishment. The other takes up a cross and washes feet. One calls enemies “targets.” The other calls enemies “neighbors.” When a woman is shot through a car window by an agent of the state, the first kingdom asks whether the procedures were followed. The second asks whether love of neighbor has been abandoned.

Many Christians don’t like that contrast. It feels unfair, even accusatory. But the Gospels force the question. Jesus blesses peacemakers, not power-brokers. He rebukes the sword. He refuses to call down fire. He walks through Samaria instead of around it. He tells us that the way we treat the least of these is the way we treat Him.

If that is the King we confess, then any event involving state violence is not just a legal question; it’s a discipleship question. What we defend in public reveals what we worship in private. When a badge is enough to change our moral standard, we have traded the Kingdom for the empire and slapped Jesus’ name on it. That is not orthodoxy. That is idolatry.

What Actually Happened Matters, but Why We Defend It Matters More

Yes, facts matter. Video matters. Angles matter. In this case, people argue over the “first shot” like it’s a courtroom riddle, then skip past the unarguable reality of two more shots fired into a vehicle at a woman who posed no lethal threat. Some admit those facts and then slip into the great American shrug: if the state did it, it must be justified. That reflex is the problem.

Larken names it without blinking: the belief in authority trains ordinary people to excuse evil when their team does it. That is not a left-versus-right issue. It is a worship issue. You can hear it whenever someone says, “Well, she should have obeyed,” as if obedience to a man with a gun is identical to obedience to God. You see it whenever the conversation dodges the moral center, “You shall not murder,” “love your neighbor as yourself,” “blessed are the merciful,” and runs to procedures, politics, and public relations.

The church must refuse that dodge. The Kingdom does not baptize bullets because the shooter is wearing a government costume. The cross does not create exceptions for uniforms. If something is murder without a badge, it is still murder with a badge.

Badges Don’t Make New Morals

Imagine this scene without uniforms. Masked, armed men surround your car, try doors, yell commands, and one of them moves into the lane in front of your hood. If any gang behaved like this, nearly everyone would call it reckless, immoral, and criminal. So why, when the label reads “federal agent,” do some believers flip their ethics upside down? The answer is ugly: many of us believe the state has divine permission to do evil that would be evil for anyone else. We won’t say it that bluntly, but our defenses give it away.

Scripture gives us no such permission. Romans 13 cannot be read against Romans 12 or the Sermon on the Mount. Paul does not cancel Jesus. The early church did not arm itself with Caesar’s sword to spread the Gospel. The fathers we quote on holiness would laugh at the idea that a title grants moral immunity. “No King but Christ” means one moral law for everyone, from the poor to the powerful. Anything else is a golden calf in red, white, and blue paint.

This is why arguments about “procedure” miss the point. Procedures do not create righteousness. Policy manuals do not erase the image of God. If the second and third shots cannot be reconciled with neighbor-love, then they cannot be reconciled with the way of Christ. Period.

Milgram in the Pew: How Training Beats Conscience

Why do otherwise decent people defend what they know is wrong? Larken points to the Milgram experiments for a grim answer. In those studies, ordinary participants believed they were shocking strangers. They trembled. They begged to stop. They knew it was wrong. But a man in a lab coat told them to continue, and their training overpowered their conscience.

The details differ, but the mechanism is the same. Our culture trains us to obey official voices and to distrust our own moral sight. We are deputized by television dramas, press conferences, and patriotic ceremonies until our instinct is to side with uniforms and treat victims as problems. Christians are not immune. We should be. We have a King who heals the ear of His enemy in a garden and rebukes the disciple holding the blade. Yet our formation is often more Fox, CNN, and campaign season than Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

Repentance here looks like deprogramming. It looks like reading Scripture as if Jesus actually meant it. It looks like confessing that we’ve excused evil because it felt safe and our team was in charge. It looks like choosing to say out loud, “That was wrong,” even when our political friends frown. In Milgram’s study, the moment one person refused, many others found courage to stop too. The Church can be that person, that voice, that pause button on cruelty.

Tactics Are Not Morals

Some Christians try to solve their discomfort by shifting the conversation: “Maybe she shouldn’t have been there.” “Maybe she should have complied.” “Maybe she should have driven away faster… or slower.” You can say a choice was unwise. You can coach your kids on better tactics when approached by armed men. But none of that baptizes murder. None of it justifies bullets.

The moral center does not move with our tactical advice. Wisdom can help us survive a sinful world; it cannot make sin righteous. When we talk about tactics to avoid talking about morals, we confess our idolatry. We tell on ourselves. We admit that we want to protect the system more than we want to protect the weak.

A healthier church would tell a different story. It would grieve a life lost. It would comfort a neighborhood. It would ask whether our habits and budgets make this kind of violence more likely. It would bless the peacemakers and retrain the reflexes that cheer for force. It would teach children that bravery looks like stepping out of the cycle of retaliation, not doubling down on it.

What the Church Should Have Said

If pastors and Christian leaders had been formed by the Sermon on the Mount, the first public words after the video surfaced would have been simple:

• “This is a tragedy. We grieve with the family.”

• “A badge does not change the image of God in a victim.”

• “Even if procedures were followed, that does not make it moral.”

• “We will not baptize state violence. We will not slander the dead.”

• “We call our people to peacemaking, not to performative outrage.”

Instead, many Christians ran interference for power. Some called the dead a terrorist. Some cherry-picked statutes. Some mocked the neighbors recording the scene. Some asked “Have you not learned?” like a playground bully, as if the point of government is to frighten the populace into submission. This language betrays a different savior. It teaches a different gospel. The cross is replaced by the sword, the pastor’s stole by the riot shield.

We can do better. We must do better. Not to score points against an agency, but to keep our own souls.

The Oldest Lie in Politics: “We’re the Good Guys”

Both major parties baptize violence when it suits their platform. The rhetoric changes. The victims change. The television graphics change. The machine does not. Larken testifies that he too once wore the stickers, cheered the raids, and trusted the system. Many of us did. Repentance looks like telling the truth about that past and refusing to repeat it. It looks like saying, out loud, “I was wrong,” then learning to see our neighbors again without the costume of ideology.

This is not cynicism. It is Christian realism. Jesus did not trust Himself to the crowds because He knew what was in man. He knew the appetite for power would twist even “good policy” into coercion. He knew fear could turn worshipers into executioners. He knew that the devil’s offer, “all the kingdoms of the world if you will bow,” still tempts believers today. That is why He called us to a narrow road.

Constitutions, Laws, and the Kingdom That Outlasts Them

Some listeners want the constitutional angle. Even there, the ground is shaky. The federal charter lists enumerated powers. It does not list a police power to regulate every person’s movement under threat of death. But the deeper Christian point is prior to all constitutions. Even if a law allowed an immoral act, it would not cease to be immoral.

The early Christians didn’t need a bill of rights to love enemies, rescue the vulnerable, and refuse idolatry. They needed a Lord. We have the same Lord. Our public discipleship should look like it.

The Kingdom Answer: Neighbor Love With Skin On

If our loyalty is to the crucified King, our answer is not primarily a hot take. Our answer is a way of life. It looks like walking toward those who are hurting. It looks like letting the doctor check a pulse instead of blocking him with the threat of pepper spray. It looks like telling truth over team loyalty. It looks like Christians becoming the people who can be trusted in a crisis because they are too busy serving to score points.

It also looks like refusing to dehumanize the agents who pulled the trigger. That does not mean excusing evil. It means telling the truth about the act while refusing to hate the actor. It means praying for justice and for their repentance. It means knowing that the same training that crushed a conscience on a street has also numbed consciences in our pews.

The way forward is not complicated, but it is costly: lay down the idolatry of political saviors and take up the cross. Pray for the courage to refuse wicked orders at every level of society. Become a people who would rather lose a platform than lose our soul.

Scripture Trail for the Church Today

• Matthew 5–7: Jesus’ constitution for the Kingdom. Peacemakers. Mercy. Enemy-love. No exceptions for uniforms.

• Romans 12 before Romans 13: Love without hypocrisy. Bless persecutors. Overcome evil with good. Read Chapter 13 in the light of Chapter 12.

• Psalm 146: Do not put your trust in princes. Their plans perish. God guards the sojourner.

• John 4; Luke 10: Jesus walks through Samaria; the neighbor is the one who shows mercy.

Let Scripture reform the reflexes shaped by talk radio and campaign seasons. Let your imagination be drenched in the Kingdom, not the headlines.

Listen & Reflect

🎧 Listen: Anywhere you find your podcasts
💬 Ask: When you see a badge, do you change your moral standard? What does that reveal about your discipleship?
📖 Read: Matthew 5–7; Romans 12–13; Psalm 146; Luke 10.
🤝 Practice: This week, serve a neighbor with no questions asked. No status check. No proof. Just love that acts.

Highlights & Takeaways

• A badge does not create a new morality. Jesus does not grant exceptions for uniforms.

• If you defend the first shot, you still must explain the others. You cannot. The second and third shots indict the soul of our authority-worship.

• Milgram wasn’t a myth. Training often beats conscience. Discipleship must train the conscience to fear God more than men.

• “Tactically unwise” is not a synonym for “deserved death.” Stop shifting the target.

• Romans 13 does not cancel the Sermon on the Mount. The cross judges empire, not the other way around.

• “No King but Christ” means one standard of love for everyone—from the poor to the powerful.

🤝Connect with Larken ROSE:

• The Jones Plantation Film

  • Platforms: Available on Apple TV, Amazon Prime, Tubi, Xmou Play, The Roku Channel, PLEX 

• The Rose Channel

• Book: The Most Dangerous Superstition 

• YouTube

• Candles in the Dark

• Facebook

Episode Timestamps:

(00:00) Framing the question: murder or self-defense? Larken returns for “Swearing Sunday.” 

• Christian allegiance vs. state power.

• Moral frame; allegiance check

• Matthew 5–7; Romans 12

• murder vs self-defense; authority; “No King but Christ”

• Previous Episodes with Larken Rose:

• EP #83 The Cult of Statism with Larken Rose

• EP #91 Breaking Down the Jones Plantation Film with Larken Rose

• EP #134 Larken Rose on Immigration and Christian Values: Challenging the Border Fetish Brigade

(00:41) Banter and burden: 

• The week’s exhaustion and why it still matters to speak.

• Choosing faithfulness over comfort; stewardship of voice

• Jeremiah 20:9

• lament; courage; speak

(01:26) Why people cheer evil: authority myths and plantation logic.

• Authority-worship; compliance culture

• How team colors override conscience

• Milgram Experiments (1963)

• obedience; idolatry; “plantation logic”

• Jones Plantation Movie

(03:40) When evil shows itself, some finally wake up.

• Shock as moral catalyst

• Ephesians 5:11

• exposure; repentance; awakening

(07:01) COVID parallels: neighbors revealed their true loyalties.

• Crisis reveals discipleship

• Romans 12 through Romans 13

• compliance; conscience; neighbor-love

(10:00) Badges and gangs: why morality cannot change with uniforms.

• Uniforms ≠ new morals

• Luke 10; early church witness

• badge; uniform; consistency – one standard for everyone.

(13:00) Craig’s Memphis test: you won’t stop to check a badge when guns are in your face.

• First agent opens the door; second moves in front of the car.

• Threat perception; staged risk

• Use-of-force: imminence

(14:17) “That was murder.” 

• Why shots two and three indict the shooter.

• No imminent threat; lethal overreach

• Matthew 5:21; proportionality

• second shot; third shot; homicide

(16:20) The physician they turned away; the shooter who fled.

• Aid refusal; post-incident flight

• Luke 10 (duty of care)

• physician; pulse check; left scene

(17:40) “Few bad apples?” Where are the good apples denouncing murder.

• Institutional silence; complicity

• Proverbs 31:8–9

• accountability; culture; complicity

(20:00) “Have you not learned?” Obedience by threat is not freedom.

• Intimidation ≠ authority

• Acts 5:29

• coercion; threat; tyranny

(21:15) Milgram: training vs. conscience and why people excuse murder.

• Training overrides conscience

• Milgram Experiments (1963) obedience study

• obedience; conditioning; conscience

(24:13) No other gods: when Christians side with Caesar over Christ.

• State-worship vs Kingdom allegiance

• Exodus 20:3; Matthew 6:24

• idolatry; Caesar; worship

• Laws/titles don’t alter morality

• Sermon on the Mount synthesis

• legalism; morality; authority claims

(33:34) “Was it murder?” clarified.

• No threat posture; face shot

• Self-defense: imminence/necessity

• face shot; no danger; overkill

(34:29) Watch his feet.

• No movement = manufactured “threat”

• Video-analysis heuristic

• feet; staging; false threat

(41:17) Tactics vs. morals: unwise choices don’t justify cages or bullets.

• Prudence ≠ moral guilt

• Romans 12:17–21

• tactics; morals; prudence

(47:17) Bootlicking theology called out.

• Excusing abuse = state worship

• Psalm 146

• princes; loyalty; idolatry

(55:55) Constitutional limits & ICE.

• Enumerated powers; no general police power

• Federalist 45 (Madison) summary

• constitution; federal power; jurisdiction

(1:06:56) Prosecution theater.

• Sacrificial pawn; delay and forget

• Prosecutorial discretion patterns

• show trial; delay; memory

(1:10:04) Signs of moral progress.

• Public conscience awakening

• Culture-shift indicators

• outrage; repentance; awareness

(1:12:37) Keep saying stuff

• Encouragement; close; credits

• Community action; sharing

• keep talking; outro; next steps

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151. “I Follow Jesus:” Public Discipleship vs. Christian Nationalism with Deacon Gerri Endicott

This episode started with a small moment at a farmers market. It was Saturday, Craig was standing by his salsa when a woman smiled and said, “Craig?” She was Gerri Endicott.

She had just started listening and wanted to learn about the show and Christian anarchism. They laughed by the jars and swapped information. A few weeks later, that quick hello became this recorded conversation.

Meet Gerri

Gerri serves as an Episcopal deacon. She works a regular job and helps her church pay attention to the world outside its walls. She preaches. She teaches. She helps people show real mercy to real neighbors. She does not want the Bible turned into simple slogans. She believes Scripture should shape people to look like Jesus, not like political teams trying to win.

While they record, Gerri is getting ready to preach on Christ the King Sunday. In the Episcopal and Anglican calendar, that Sunday comes right before Advent. Not every church keeps it. In her parish, it works like a reset. It says what this project keeps saying: No King but Christ.

This is the story the episode tells: a chance meeting, a deeper talk, and a call to love Jesus more than flags and parties.

What a Deacon Is DOES

Gerri lives in the Memphis area and serves around Collierville while working a normal 9 to 5. A deacon helps a church turn outward. That means listening for the pain outside the doors and then going to meet it. It is less about a title and more about being present with people.

Gerri describes her week in simple words: show up where people hurt, carry the church’s prayers into the world, and carry the world’s pain back into the church’s prayers. That might mean preaching on Sunday and checking on a neighbor on Monday. It might mean helping leaders notice needs they missed and helping people meet those needs with quiet faithfulness.

As Gerri puts it, “A deacon turns the church outward. We preach. We teach. We send people to serve,” (04:30–05:10).

Her tone stays calm and hopeful. If you think ministry only means a stage and a microphone, this gives a bigger picture. A lot of the work is small and local: visiting, listening, connecting people, and reminding the church that Jesus is already at work on their street.

“Follower of Jesus,” Not a Brand

Gerri often does not start with, “I am a Christian.” She starts with, “I am a follower of Jesus.” The word “Christian” can carry baggage. People hear it and make guesses right away. Gerri is not hiding her faith. She is trying to make her loyalty clear.

She says it like this: “I want people to hear Jesus before they hear my politics,” (12:30–13:10).

They also remember the earliest Christians. They repented and believed. They loved enemies. They shared bread. They refused to say, “Caesar is lord.” The cross, not the sword, showed who they belonged to. That is the center Gerri wants people to meet first: Jesus in action, not a label that can mean many different things today.

Women in Ministry: Let Daughters Speak

Gerri talks about how her tradition got here. The Episcopal Church did not ordain women as priests until 1974. It was a slow change, with prayer and debate. She also points out something important: even though the Bible was written in a world led by men, it still shows strong and important women from start to finish.

Then she tells a real church moment. After a sermon on women in ministry, a retired military man stopped her at the door. He said, “My wife bought The Making of Biblical Womanhood by Beth Allison Barr,” and then added, “I’m almost through it and I have one thing to say, ‘we’d all be a hell of a lot better off if we just let women run things’.”

Craig brings it back to the gospel story: women were the first to proclaim the resurrection.

Craig says, “If it’s good enough for Jesus, I don’t know why we’re even talking about this anymore—why this is a debate.” (08:28–08:34)

The point is not to win an argument. The point is to honor the whole story and the good fruit it produces in real churches: voices used, gifts shared, neighbors served.

Christian Nationalism: Check the Fruit

Gerri also pushes back on a loud kind of “Christian” that looks like a rally. Crosses on flags. Enemies to crush. Cheers for violence. Gerri rejects it because the fruit does not look like Jesus. She says the people harmed most by this mix often include immigrants, the poor, and political opponents. If it harms them, it matters to Jesus, so it should matter to the church.

She makes a clear line: being thankful for your country is fine, but loyalty is different. Loyalty belongs to Jesus. When national identity becomes the center, the poor are ignored and enemies are hated. The Sermon on the Mount points another way.

Gerri says, “Jesus does not love America more than he loves anyone else. This is about following him,” (13:59–14:20).

Craig shares his own practice here. He reads 1 Samuel 8 and hears a warning about asking for a king. For Craig, not voting is one way to keep his loyalty clear. He does not demand others do the same. He is explaining a strict posture: No King but Christ.

A Liturgical Lens, Not a Test

Christ the King Sunday matters here. In Gerri’s Episcopal tradition, set readings and prayers shape worship. The Sunday before Advent announces one theme: Christ is King. Not the president. Not a party. Not “us.” Gerri is preparing to preach this, not as a political jab, but as a gentle reminder of who Christians are.

Not every church uses that calendar, and that is okay. The point is not copying a schedule. The point is remembering who holds our loyalty. In Gerri’s parish, the message is simple: be thankful for your place, and be loyal to Jesus.

Gerri says it clearly: “We do not bow to a government. We belong to Christ,” (39:56–40:20).

And even if you are not in a liturgical church, the idea still works. Any week can be a reset. Any table can become a place where the Kingdom shows up through bread, prayer, and love for neighbors.

The Big Story

Again and again, Craig and Gerri step back from “one verse fights” and tell the whole Bible story, from start to finish.

• Creation: God makes a good world and calls people very good.

• Israel (in the Bible, not a modern nation-state): God sets apart a family to bless neighbors, not crush them.

• Jesus: the clearest picture of God, washing feet, healing an enemy’s son, telling the truth even when it costs him.

• The church: small tables, open homes, shared bread.

• New creation: a future where tears are dried and weapons become tools for growing food.

When you read that story with Jesus in the center, the path gets clearer: love God, love your neighbor, welcome the stranger, bless people who hurt you, tell the truth, and keep your promises. Craig and Gerri also make it practical, like bringing a casserole to a widow, giving a ride to someone whose car broke down, staying calm online, or saying sorry face to face.

This kind of life does not feed the rage machine. It will not go viral. But that is the point. The Kingdom does not grow by outrage. It grows by presence, kept promises, and steady love that might look boring on camera, but looks holy in real life.

Gerri sums it up: “It is the whole arc. Love God. Love people. Take care of each other,” (22:11–23:15).

Nations and Nation-States

They also slow down to talk about words. In Scripture, “nations” often means “peoples.” It does not match today’s nation-states in a simple way. When we mix those up, people grab ancient commands and try to use them for modern borders and parties. Gerri calls for a slower reading: honor the text, learn the context, and keep Jesus at the center when you make public choices.

This helps keep Christians from treating one country as “God’s plan” and helps them treat strangers with the same mercy they want for themselves. It also keeps the church from turning into an enemy-making machine.

Tradition That Points Beyond Itself

Gerri respects her tradition: robes, music, and the lectionary. But she says these things are tools. They are not the treasure. Traditions do not define God. They should point to God and keep Jesus in the center.

Gerri says, “I honor my tradition, but it points me to God. It is not God,” (22:11–22:35).

She also likes the lectionary because it makes preachers deal with passages they did not pick. It helps a church avoid only talking about favorite topics, and it invites the whole story of Scripture to shape the year.

Borders, ICE, and Neighbor Love

They also touch immigration and the border. They agree that naming harm matters. People made in God’s image can get reduced to numbers and headlines. Gerri asks churches to speak plainly about dignity and to act locally: support a family, learn a name, offer help without strings, and resist words or policies that treat people like problems.

That steady neighbor love is how a parish shows loyalty to Jesus in public. It is not a slogan. It is a way of life.

Highlights and Takeaways

• A quick hello at a farmers market became a Kingdom conversation.

• Deacons help churches face outward and serve.

• Let daughters speak. The Body needs every gift.

• Christian nationalism is not the gospel. Check the fruit.

• Read the whole arc of the bible. Love God. Love neighbor. Practice mercy.

• Nations ≠ nation‑states; keep Jesus at the center of public choices.

• Faithfulness looks local: tables, casseroles, rides, and kept promises.

Listen, Reflect & Act

🎧 Listen. Ask Jesus to reset your loyalty to Him while the episode plays.
💬 Reflect. Where have you let the flag first pushed the cross to the side?

🦻Revisit. Matthew 5–7; Romans 12 (before Romans 13); Psalm 146; Revelation 5.
📖 Read: Read Gerri’s Sermon
🤝 Act. Serve someone this week with no strings. Pray for an enemy by name. Invite a neighbor to your table.

Episode Timestamps:

(00:00) Farmers market hello: How they met

• Peaches, name tags, a quick hello in Memphis; Gerri recognizes Craig.

• “Christian anarchism” comes up; they agree to talk more on the show.

• Sets the tone: ordinary place, Jesus‑centered conversation.

(02:00) Memphis roots & call to serve: Gerri’s context

• Collierville area; normal 9–5 job + local church service.

• Deacon = helper who turns the church outward (service > stage).

• Picture: visits, check‑ins, prayer, connecting needs to help.

• Carry the world’s pain into the church’s prayers (and back).

• Examples: rides, groceries, hallway prayers, “we didn’t forget you.”

(05:49) Scripture & strong women: Big story, not proof texts

• Bible written in a hard time for women, yet full of faithful daughters.

• Names matter: Mary Magdalene, Priscilla, Phoebe, Junia.

• Read the whole story, not one line pulled out.

(06:50) A changed mind: Book + sermon

• Retired soldier reads The Making of Biblical Womanhood (Beth Allison Barr).

• Tells Gerri: “We’d be better off if we let women run things.” (06:50–07:30)

• Book + sermon + fruit = “You’re right; let women preach/lead.”

(08:10) Easter’s first witnesses: Why this matters

• Women share the first news: “He is risen.”

• Craig asks: If that’s true, why is the pulpit still a debate?

• Pattern: trust the witnesses Jesus trusted. (Matt 28; John 20)

(12:30) “Follower of Jesus:”  Language that lowers walls

• Gerri starts with “I follow Jesus,” not the heavier label.

• Goal: meet a Person, not a brand or party.

• Marks of Jesus’ people: kind speech, open hands, kept promises.

(13:59) Loyalty & the Sermon on the Mount: Allegiance check

• Be thankful for your country; keep loyalty with Jesus.

• Beatitudes as public ethic: mercy, peacemaking, truth.

• Refuse rage-bait; love enemies. (Matthew 5–7)

(14:29) Taking Scripture seriously: How to read

• Don’t cherry‑pick; read in context with Jesus at the center.

• Look for fruit: love, joy, peace… not cruelty.

• Let hard texts teach us to serve, not to win.

(18:45) Christ the King (her church calendar): A yearly reset

• Episcopal/Anglican day before Advent; not every church observes it.

• Simple confession: Jesus is King; parties and leaders are not.

• Family practice: pray the Lord’s Prayer; ask, “Who can we serve?”

(22:11) The big story: Creation to new creation

• Creation → Israel → Jesus → Church → New Creation.

• Clear path: love God, love neighbor; keep your word; tell the truth.

• Ordinary acts: casseroles, rides, apologies, quiet hospital visits.

(24:31) Nations vs. countries: Words matter

• In Scripture, “nations” = “peoples,” not modern borders.

• Mixing terms warps reading and fuels bad politics.

• Keep Jesus at the center when making public choices.

(38:47) No new kings: Craig’s practice

• 1 Samuel 8: warning about asking for a king.

• Craig abstains from voting to keep his loyalty clear.

• Not a rule for all; an invitation to examine allegiance.

(39:56) Sermon preview: How Gerri will name it

• Parish message: grateful for place; loyal to Jesus.

• “We don’t bow to a government; we belong to Christ.” (39:56–40:20)

• Tone: gentle, pastoral, invitational.

• Copy of Gerri’s Sermon

(46:56) Borders, ICE, neighbor love: Dignity in action

• People are not headlines; learn names and needs.

• Local steps: diapers, bus passes, meals, rides, waiting‑room care.

• Speak carefully; resist words/policies that harm image‑bearers.

(48:00) Stay in touch: What’s next

• Reach Gerri through the show for dates and updates.

• More preaching ahead; keep the conversation open.

• Practice No King but Christ in small, steady ways.

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