86. The Legacy of the Early Church with Abby Cleckner (as host)

About this Episode

Abby Cleckner is back to host this episode with your regular host as today’s guest, and we'll be taking a captivating journey into early church history. Together, Craig and Abby shed light on the core beliefs of the early church, the lives, and works of key figures like Polycarp, Origen, and Tertullian, and the awe-inspiring resilience they displayed in the face of adversity.

Join us as we delve into Tertullian's unconventional views on the role of the church and the state, and how his words resonate with Jesus' teachings about the Gentiles. Discover why Tertullian ultimately left the church, and how his perspective on the church-state relationship in his time pushes us to question the present-day status quo. You won't want to miss this stimulating discussion!

Lastly, we'll compare the approaches of early church fathers like Polycarp, Origen, and Tertullian in handling the persecution of Christianity by the Roman Empire. Uncover the radical pacifism that set the early church apart and how their commitment to nonviolent resistance transformed the world. We'll also dig into their views on religious freedom, rooted in the belief that it was a gift from God, not the state. Don't miss out on this exploration of the early church's incredible legacy and its enduring relevance to our lives today.

Episode Timestamps:

01:11 The Return of Abby Cleckner

• Podcast Hosting Exhaustion

• Abby and Craig discuss balancing family life and work, maintaining a consistent recording rhythm, producing a podcast, and preparing content.

07:51 Abby’s Podcast Intro as today’s Host

• Craig’s “bio”

09:34 Craig’s Early Church Article

• Article: THE EARLY CHURCH AND THE FOUNDATIONS OF VOLUNTARYISM (CHRISTIAN-ANARCHISM)

• Why the interest in the early church

• Early church’s Influence on the Podcast

• No King but Christ

12:36 Significance of the first few hundred years of the church

• Pacifism and Christ's Kingship Significance

• Stakes of believing in Christ in those times

15:44  Exploring the Early Church's Leaders

• Polycarp, Origen, and Tertullian's beliefs in Jesus' divinity and how Christians should act 

• Polycarp and Apolstale John

• Unwavering faith vs. today’s

• Origen and historical claims

21:02 The value of taking the time to read the early church fathers

• Church vs. State relationship

• Roman Empire vs. Christians

23:49 Tertulian's Christian View on State

• Tertullian's perspective on the church and state challenges us to question the status quo

• black-and-white approach

• Contextual approach to reading history

 29:18 Why were these early church leaders writing things down?

• Tertullian was writing to Romans

• Origen was “talking to everybody”

• Writing your congressperson a letter vs these early church father’s writings' legacy

34:48 Early Church Fathers vs. Early Church History

• We have their writings – source text

• The Christians as the Romans Saw Them, 

• Use of propaganda by Romans

37:44 Book Recommendations

• The Christians as the Romans Saw Them, Robert Lewis Wilken

• The Early Christians: In Their Own Words, Eberhard Arnold 

• The Early Church on Killing, Ronald J. Sider  

• Liberty and The Things of God: The Christian Origens of Religious Freedom, Robert Louis Wilken

• Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs, David W. Bercot

41:32 What the Early Church Got Wrong

• Tertullian's views on universalism and eternal conscious torment

• Origen being called a heretic and universalism 

• Grace Saves All Podcast

• Importance of reading and learning for yourself

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60. God or Government - Who's in Charge of the World? with Pete Rollo of Rival Nations & Abby Cleckner

About this episode

In this episode, Craig and his better podcast half, Abby Cleckner, are joined by Peter Rollo, founder of the website and blog project Rival Nations. Pete shares the history of Rival Nations, why he started it, why he was anonymous for so long, and where the project is headed. 

If you’ve ever questioned if the world of politics, on any side, be it liberal, conservative, anarchist, or libertarian always seems prone to the ways of this world, to violence. This episode looks at why that is, and why we, as Christians are called to a different kingdom, and we must continue to abide by the ways of that Kingdom, the one Jesus showed us, rather than pursue earthly powers.

Too often we find Christians falling into the fallacy that, if we just get more Christians elected into office things will change, and God’s will can be implemented, with the right leaders, but this is the illusion we see Jesus reject time and time again in the Bible. How do we get to this conclusion? By looking at what Jesus has to teach us. In the second half of the episode, Pete breaks down his article, Christians Can’t Be in Government, to show us exactly who is at the forefront of political power (hint: it is not God!).

We see Israel fall when it turns to earthly Kings, and we see Jesus reject the role of Messiah, in an effort to show us God’s way, not Man’s. Rival Nations is a digital archive of Pete’s theological journey, and it all started with seeing Jesus as a political force, not in his pursuit of political power, but, rather, in his rejection of it. Let us know what you think and the comments, or by sharing your thoughts on social media!

Episode Timestamps:

1:46 Pete’s Background

• Public ministry and expressing “radical” viewpoints

4:08 The difficulty of engaging those we disagree with

6:31 Peter’s Political Journey 

• No political ideology or government aligns with Jesus

• Jesus is the alternative to the earthly missions of political movements

• Jesus is political

8:27 Creation of Rival Nations (formerly done anonymously)

• Peter created the website as a tool for himself

11:30 How the Political realization of Jesus transformed Peter’s Theology

• Word Gospel was not a Hebrew word, but a word caesar was using and Jesus co-opted the phrase

• Early church’s focus on Jesus

• Modern church’s alignment with the Roman Catholic church vs. the early church of historic Christianity

• Anabaptist 

16:17 Peter’s Article - Christians Can’t Be in Government

• If you take Jesus seriously, we must abstain from seeking political power

• The myth of “getting more Christians in office will fix things”

• George W. Bush claimed to follow Jesus vs. his actions while in office (war)

• Can a Christian run a secular government, without engaging in violence

• Governments cannot love their enemy the way Jesus calls on us to love ours

• Satan offered Jesus political power and Jesus rejected it

  • Politics pulls us away from God?

  • Satan wants more Christians in office

20:22 Did God create the government (or any government)?

• 1 Samuel 8

• Humanity was given authority over animals and nature - not humanity

• Israel had no king and was supposed to be an example, but they fell into wanting kings

  • Violence always comes from wanting to control others

• The whole power structure has to be turned upside down to follow Jesus

• The notion of “Jesus for President” can never make sense with the current system

27:06 Jesus being tempted with political power and rejecting it

• Jesus avoided term Messiah

  • Had violence in its history

• People kept trying to make him king

• Satan directly tempts him

• Jesus is not going to come back and be violent

  • Why would Jesus change his mind?

• Jesus will not “slay out enemies”

  • Our propensity toward violence drives us to this thinking

• The myth of American Cowboy

  • “Might makes right”

  • Our enormous military power

  33:07 Opt-Out and Follow Jesus

• America is not our nation, Christnation is

• We are ambassadors of the Kingdom of Heaven

• But what about paul using his Roman citizenship?

  • We do what we need to survive practically and leverage situations for our mission for God and further the Gospel

• Accepting Jesus as king of your life is the only citizenship you get to choose to participate in

  • What paul talked about was a rival nation to Rome

38:59 “God puts people in political power”

• Reading Romans 13 without reading Romans 12

• Old vs. New Testament

• 3 Temptations of Jesus

• Is Satan only interested in Jesus worshiping him?

• If we know the temptation, why would we partake in it?

• Does Romans 13 work for Nazi Germany?

  • Then it doesn't work for you and America

44:49 God in the Process of Resorting All Things

• Escetoloy

• Times Theology

• Eternal Torment 

48:10 Connect with Peter and Rival Nations

• Rivalnations.org

Facebook Page, Instagram, Twitter, RSS

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59. Jesus, Memes, War, and Canadian Truckers with Nathan Chavoya, Tony & Abby Cleckner

About this episode

For episode 59 of the podcast, Craig is joined by (sometimes) co-host Abby Cleckner for a conversation with fellow podcasters, Nathan Chavoya and his co-host Tony, to talk about the power of memes, their podcast Reality Czars, and, of course, Jesus.

We covered a wide variety of topics in this episode, from why we use memes to Amish communities and the pros and cons of Trump supporters. As always, it comes back to the question of: What Would Jesus Do? Whether we’re considering people who don’t want to listen, Canadian truckers, Ukraine and Russia, the Mexican border, war and Christianity, the indoctrination of the church, or conservative Amish communities – in everything, we must follow the example of Jesus.

Nathan is the social media manager for The Bad Roman Project. He makes a lot of the memes you see on our page. You can find Nate and Tony's show and where to connect with them via their link tree (content warning for all of their media: profanity, crude humor, rude comments).

Episode Timestamps:

5:50 Why memes work

• People often seem to get more out of memes than the podcast

• Non-intrusive way to absorb an idea

• Can light a fire… maybe dose a red pill

  • Makes people read all day to learn more

  • Might change their entire perspective on the world

9:01 People who love to smell their own farts

• Some people just want to inform others how wrong they are

• Go on long rants

• You can’t do anything about it when they refuse your offered resources

  • They don’t really want answers

  • “I could tell you, but you're not listening to me anyway.” -Craig

• Saying, “You’re wrong” and writing a novel about why is not going to get you engagement

• Using tired information and arguments won’t convince anyone

• Proving you’re not interested in learning more about what you disagreed with shuts down the conversation

12:45 Canadian truckers

• “I see a bunch of statists running around out there waving their flags, trying to change the government and get the government to give them back their freedoms.” - Craig                                                       

  • We make fun of the patriot libertarians

    • But at least they’re doing something

      • Ancaps are sitting on their butts

      • Agorists are building their own markets and ignoring society

      • “I'm glad that there is some pushback.” - Nate 

      • Maybe they have the wrong approach, but at least theyr’e taking action

• Craig warned them to watch for feds/politicians trying to infiltrate their group

  • The feds are the dumb ones

    • There was a guy at the truck rally waving a Nazi flag

  • They literally all wear the same black boots

  • They try to paint any pushback as racist

    • It’s just normal folks saying, “Keep that crap away from me.”

• Trudeau called them harmful white nationalists

  • As they helped homeless people on the video behind his voice

  • There’s not just white people involved

• What is their goal? How does sitting there help?

  • Trudeau said all truckers must be vaccinated

    • Put a travel ban on unvaccinated

    • Even US truckers coming in must get the shot

    • In the US, like 60% of truckers are not vaccinated

  • They're holding a huge strike

    • Not shipping

    • Clogging up streets

  • People raised over $10 million on GoFundMe

    • It got refunded because the site refused to support the truckers

    • Another site stepped up and raised $3 million in 24 hours

  • Not directly hurting anyone

    • People won’t be able to get what they ordered

      • If there was no effect, what’s the point?

    • They have every right not to do their job

  • Some say it’s not really a grassroots movement

    • Most guys are there to fight the power

    • But it was the deep state’s idea

      • Elon Musk has created self-driving trucks

      • They are going to prevent humans from stopping shipment again by using computers instead

        • “Never again”

  • Wouldn’t it be more effective to just keep doing their jobs unvaccinated?

    • Instead of just sitting there waiting for the government to change its mind

    • People can refuse their shipments if they want

    • But it might have made less of a media splash

    • How could the government really enforce it? There’s too many of them

      • The laws wouldn’t mean anything anymore

  • Actually, a lot of the truckers are vaccinated

    • They’re still protesting with their brothers

    • They don’t believe anyone should be forced into it

    • In most realms of society, it’s the unvaxxed vs vaxxed, but these guys can still work together

    • They haven’t converted to the religion of COVID-19

    • They don’t see those without it as heretics

    • They just watch the news, and the news told them to get it

    • Most people don’t have access to alternative media

    • They’d been locked down for 2 years

    • Believed the vaccine would protect them, that they wouldn’t get COVID (not true), that they wouldn’t spread COVID (not true), and that the symptoms will be less bad (maybe?)

    • Realize they were duped, life didn’t go back to normal, we keep being told if we do just one more thing, it will all be over

    • How long will people continue doing the rain dance that doesn't bring any rain?

    • When will they say, “No! I don't trust you anymore.”

    • People are afraid to eat crow

    • They don't want to admit they were wrong, so they just continue to do what they're told and pretend to agree

24:47 The reality of COVID

• Some sort of virus definitely exists 

• It might not have actually been any worse than other years

  • The people in charge got to tell us what's causing deaths

    • They know how to manipulate statistics

  • Three years ago, if your grandma had cancer and diabetes, then got the flu and died, the flu would not be blamed

    • Almost everyone had 3 to 4 comorbidities

  • The average age of people who died from COVID was 81

    • The average age of people who die in America regularly is 79

• Theories on why it didn’t hurt most people

  • If they really made this in a lab, they didn't do a very good job

    • It didn't hurt very many people

    • It's all just a circus made to distract us

    • Or maybe they just weren't able to test it on average humans

      • Maybe they tested it on sickly populations and it wiped out a good chunk of those people

        • Prisoners low on vitamin D and will to live would get much sicker and be more likely to die

    • “They thought it was going to be really bad and were disappointed. So they had to start making up numbers.” - Abby

  • Psy-op 

    • Maybe it wasn’t about wiping out the population

    • Maybe it was about seeing what they could make us do

      • Even places who did not comply at first masked up for Omicron for some reason

        • Omicron meme example

29:18 Mandates

• Some counties in Tennessee tried to hold on to mask mandates

  • The state made them illegal at the county level

    • But schools were still free to choose

    • Craig’s friend’s kids were required to get vaccinated to go to school

      • Abby told her kids they wouldn’t be allowed to go if that happened

      • Nate and Craig would want to get violent if the school required that

        • Craig wouldn’t even stand for masks

    • People living in places where it’s not required are choosing to wear 2 masks and get jabbed

      • They’re scared

    • In Oregon, they forced all school staff to get the vaccine

      • A lot of teachers chose instead to get fired

      • Parents are all mad, but they do nothing

32:26 Schooling

• If we all got together and hired the fired teachers, we could have our own school

  • No more government indoctrination camp

  • No more teaching our kids weird things we don’t want them to learn

  • The unvaxxed teachers are more likely to align with our values

• Let’s come together and homeschool instead of getting our kids vaccinated so that they can be indoctrinated

33:52 Ukraine and Russia

• You have to look back at their history to understand

• Is the threat of war just posturing by Biden?

  • His guys supposedly killed an ISIS leader in Syria the other day

    • Some people say he wasn’t even a leader

    • So many innocent people died in that air strike

  • Is this also just something they’re saying to look good?

  • Biden’s popularity has been plummeting

    • Whenever that happens, they start talking about war

• It doesn’t look like Russia is wanting war

• History

  • Raegan and Gorbachev made an agreement that NATO would never extend east beyond Western Germany and the USSR would not come west of it

  • NATO has taken over many former USSR countries

  • Russia wants at least a buffer between themselves and NATO

    • That was Ukraine

    • They said if NATO came into Ukraine, they’d fight

• Who knows what will happen

  • We’re acting like the biggest bully

    • But are we?

    • We just turned tail and left Afghanistan

• What people are saying

  • Someone said, “Man, those democrats sure do like war”

    • Dude, the republicans continued several wars with Trump in office

    • You just gotta agree with them

      • Because that is true

      • Ask them questions: 

        • Why don’t they like war?

        • Find out their principles

      • Then ask them to be consistent when a republican comes to power

39:26 Border crossers

• Conversation Craig had

  • “Trump gave us a secure border”

  • “By locking kids in cages”

  • “But at least it was secure”

  • “I dunno; doesn’t seem Christlike”

  • *silence*

• Use, “IDK… WWJD?”

• Someone said, “Most of the kids in cages aren’t even related to any adults they came with. I’d rather my kid sit in a cage than be sex trafficked.”

  • Obama made some sort of rule that if you brought a kid with you, the US government would let you through no questions asked

    • So, lots of sex and drug traffickers used that to their advantage

  • They couldn't keep the kids and adults together because they were afraid of the kids being abused, especially since most of them were not with their parents

  • "I don't think the cages are the best solution still. Call me crazy." - Abby

• We just need to get rid of drug laws and borders, and most of these problems would be solved

• Why do people care if anyone comes over the border anyway?

  • What's so wrong about them looking for a better life?

  • People here don't want to work, so why can't they let someone else come do it?

  • So many people who oppose the border don't realize the people getting ahead in their precious capitalist system are bringing people over the border for cheap labor

    • They don't get held accountable, but Mom and Pop places do

  • Work visas

    • Families have to live off one income if one spouse is deported

  • “They’re so sweet; I don’t understand why we treat them like garbage.” - Craig

• Shoot ‘em

  • People want to have snipers on top of the wall picking crossers off

    • Because maybe then they’d think twice about coming over

  • There used to be a group who shot border crossers

  • They have similar attitudes towards Muslims

    • If they saw one with a backpack on, they’d shoot

      • How does one know a man is Muslim?

        • You’d have to do a little interview with him first

45:00 Evangelicals love war and destruction

• They’re the top demographic to support war, capital punishment, torture…

• How is that possible??

  • Maybe it started with one issue, like abortion, and once the Republican Party could control what they thought about that, they could control what they thought about everything else too

  • Conservative culture is more important to them than Jesus or liberty

    • They stick a Jesus fish on their car to prove their love

• Evangelicals will get mad at you when you say you don't support war 

  • They actually seem to equate being a Christian with supporting war

    • They don't see the conflict there

  • “I was that guy…It never dawned on me that murdering people was not what Christ wants us to do.” - Craig

  • There has to be some fascinating psychology behind that

    • Someone made a diabolical plan to cause it

• It’s taught in churches

  • Perhaps most strongly in Southern Baptist congregations

• But people can love their country without loving murder and theft

• The church was infiltrated

  • The first churches in early America were very anti-state

  • Maybe the desire for power was too strong and they combined with the state

  • Maybe they learned loyalty to the state from the Church of England

    • Or they were used to controlling the state through the church

  • The separatists coming from England had been persecuted by the Anglican Church and had no interest in being like them

51:51 Amish

• Were getting murdered by other denominations

• Fled to America

• Stuck their heads in the ground and became entirely separate

• Did not operate like England at all

• Some anabaptists are trying to convince the more conservative Amish groups to engage with the fringes of society

  • They’re so secluded they won’t even help people outside the church

• Their strict rules are a new form of oppression

• Treat their women like second class citizens

  • Jesus never talked about that

  • Maybe it’s an indoctrination

  • A lot of Muslim women say they like and choose their head coverings

• Some Amish communities kick their kids out into the world at 16-18 to let them decide for themselves

  • Some don’t and people flee

    • They send members after them like a Mormon cult

55:54 Reality Czars podcast

• Unscripted

  • Which is good because popular guests who usually repeat the same thing wind up sharing something new or funny

• Nate and Tony teamed up

  • Met at Squatchfest

  • Tony helped Nate kill some pigs for an anarchist animal butchering class

    • (he kind of expected to get killed because Nate’s standing their with a gun and HUGE pigs in the pen, and they were only acquaintances)

  • They had interesting conversations and decided to start a show

• Nate’s side hustle

  • Wife Abbey writes these show notes (hi)

  • He makes the memes

  • Abbey also does proofreading

• Nate’s baby

  • Is actually 8.5 months old now

  • Happily wears bow ties to church

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5. Keith Giles & Abby Cleckner - Untangling Jesus to Love Jesus

In this episode Craig is joined by Keith Giles, author of Jesus Untangled, and our contributor Abby Cleckner. Keith Giles is a former pastor who left the pulpit to follow Jesus and start a house church where no one takes a salary and 100 percent of all offerings are given to help the poor in the community. He has been a published writer since 1989.

Their conversation centers on Keith’s book and his entire Jeus-un series. Keith helps us reframe our perspective of Christianity from that of worshipping a book about Jesus to moving into a growing and personal relationship with Christ Himself. Jesus is who we have been called to follow out of fear and into love— not the state, not the pastor, but Jesus.

Starting points for further exploration on topics from the show:

10:00 Mark Twain quote: It’s Easier to Fool People Than to Convince Them That They Have Been Fooled? (great quote might not be by Mark Twain)

 12:28 Jesus Unbound

13:03 Story of two soldiers

16:42 Eberhard Arnold

24:20 Study he is referring to: Testing Theories of American Politics: Elites, Interest Groups, and Average Citizens Martin Gilens and Benjamin I.

28:00 Roe v. Wade

29:01 Planned Parenthood Funding shows increased funding most recent fiscal cycle 

29:40  Sandra Day O’Connor

30:34 Jerry Faldwell

39:00 Flat Bible vs. Jesus Centric Perspective

50:57 Anabaptist