88. Journeys of Faith: Unpacking Eschatology with Micah and John of City Square Podcast

About this Episode

Have you ever questioned your beliefs about the end times? Have you ever wondered about the different strands of eschatological thought and how they emerged? Strap in for a fascinating discussion with John and Micah, hosts of the City Square Podcast on eschatology. Listen in as we get into the heart of eschatology, a topic we've not extensively covered on the Bad Roman Podcast. It's an enlightening conversation filled with personal experiences, exciting insights, and a friendly rivalry over football.

Ready to expand your horizons? We explore different eschatological views, how popular culture influences these perspectives(The Left Behind Series), and the history of alternative beliefs and teachings. Hear about the three main views of eschatology (Amill, Pre-Mill, and Post-Mill), the interpretations of Christ's return, and the role of critical thinking and discernment in religious belief. We deconstruct the emergence of dispensationalism, where it came from, and its wide acceptance today.

But that’s not all! We’re pulling back the curtain on the City Square Podcast, revealing its conception, production, and mission. Hear how everyday people share stories of their faith and labor, contributing to the vibrant tapestry of human experience. We'll also discuss the bearing of eschatology on one's life and the potential it holds to shape our view of the world. With John and Micah as our guides, we journey through a landscape of belief, religion, and personal perspectives in this enlightening and entertaining episode.

Connect with our guests Micah and John:

Facebook

Instagram

Youtube

Spotify

Episode Timestamps:

01:10 - Who is Micah? 

• Husband, father, grew up Baptist before moving into Evenglicail philosophies 

• studied church father and found his way into LCMS (Lutheran Church Mission Synod)

02:56 - Who is John?

• Did not grow up in the Church

• God saved him in college

• He found his way into reform theology and planted a church in rural TX before moving to San Antonio

• Web Designer

04:27 West Texas & The Dallas Cowboys 

• Sports Rivalries

• Steve Young signed ball

9:36 Eschatology

• City Square Round Table

• The Rapture and Southern Baptist Churches view on it

• Preacher Ebb

• Dispensationalist Eschatology

12:33 John’s View of the Rapture and Eschatology

• Evangelical tradition’s relationship to dispensationalist Eschatology

• Left Behind Series

• Amillennialism Eschatology

• Traditional early Church view

16:14 Micah’s View and What is Amill?

• Amill

• Not a future literal thousand years, but Christ is reigning now with saints and will at some point return

• Post-mill

• Christ returns after minimum, but the world system gets progressively better until his return

• Pre-mill

• Christ returns before the millennium

• Dispensationalist 

• 18th century 19th century America

• Splits Christ's return into two parts

19:40 The Fear of Rapture as a Kid and where that gets directed 

• Not fear of self not being saved but those who do not believe

• Fear-based theology

• United Pentecostal

22:44 Why should we care about these different views as Christians?

• Dispensationalist in 2020

• “Everything was the anti-Christ”

• Most people don’t know there are multiple perspectives or the origins of Dispensationalism

• Dangers of going “too far”

• Eschatology as a barrier to a deeper faith

27:00 Israel’s Standing in Amill and Post-mill vs. Dispensationalism

• Book of Revelation and Daniel are important for Dispensationalism

• Symbolism vs. literalism 

• Multi Genere nature of the bible

• Eschatology is essential in informing how you shape your fundamental worldview

31:47 City Square Podcast and Covid-19

• Origin of name and logo

• Importance of talking to real people about who they are, what they do, and their faith

• Power of Stories

• Today and in the bible

• Authenticity

• Fandoms

• Covid and fake sports fans

45:20 Differences Between Lutheran and Reformed Theology

• John and Micah discuss Baptism

• Martin Luther

• Lord's Supper

• Christology

• Ecclesiology

• global church's view of Jesus' presence

53:54 How to connect with City Square and Micah and John

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70. Pawns of the Military-Industrial Complex with Jamie Cain

About this Episode

Jamie Cain, host of the Liberty Uninterrupted podcast, joins Craig to discuss the military-industrial complex as someone who lived as its pawn. Despite his father’s warning that he would not be fighting for freedom but rather for lobbyists and bankers, at 17 years old, liberty-loving Jamie joined the military. A few years later, Jamie left the military out of his love of liberty, having learned that war is a racket. Since then, he has had some success talking young people out of joining the military by exploring their reasoning for doing so and turning their patriotic logic on its head. Other times, shocking young people by being brutally honest is the only way, but Jamie is not scared of awkward conversations. 

With Craig equally likely to blow up comfortable public narratives, these two could write the book on conversations guaranteed to ruin Thanksgiving dinner! In this episode, they share their views on the military-industrial complex, its propaganda, recruiting and indoctrination techniques. The Military-Industrial Complex is the murdering wing of the state. It indoctrinates and enslaves young Americans as pawns in wars for the financial gain of special interest groups and politicians. 

Craig and Jamie envision a world where America’s competitors act the way America has, policing the world in the name of democracy, bombing critical infrastructure and setting up occupying forces and military bases. Of course, if anyone tried it, Americans would be rightfully angry. With military recruitment figures at crisis levels, maybe after 20 years of illegal wars it is time to bring the troops home.

Connect with Jamie:

Website

• Instagram

• Twitter

• Facebook

• Practical Christology

• TikTok

Liberty Uninterrupted podcast on:

• Apple

• Spotify

• YouTube

Episode Timestamps:

2:23 – Who is Jamie Cain?

• Podcast host at Liberty Uninterrupted 

• Voluntaryist with a libertarian podcast

• Joined the military at 17 years old

• War is a Racket – Major General Smedley Butler

• Dad’s advice at the start of his military career:

  • Remember that you are not fighting for freedom

• Wanted to join the army since he was seven years old

• Rich people all over the world send the poor to fight their wars

  • After getting rich from taxes

  • Their children do not join the military

9:15 – Why shouldn’t people join the military?

• The praise that military men receive helps keep people signing up

• Financial benefits help too

• More veterans have committed suicide than soldiers died in Afghanistan

• Military men believe they are doing the right thing

• Shaming soldiers is not going to change their mind

  • They don’t sign up to fight proxy wars

    • Or to support the Military-Industrial Complex

    • Or to be used as war game pawns

• Shame the Military-Industrial Complex, not the people involved

  • They don’t get to choose the jobs they do

    • End up in military prison if they refuse a job

• Soldiers sign a contract to become the state’s property

  • Even state military guards are misused

• During covid, citizen’s liberties were restricted but no help came from the military

• After six years, Jamie realized he had been lied to

  • Clung to protecting his buddies

• Jamie was woken up by Ron Paul in 2012 Presidential Election speeches

  • Said invading Iraq and Afghanistan was wrong

  • Talked about why the Middle East hated Americans

  • Read The Revolution: A Manifesto – Ron Paul

• Ron Paul’s “Giuliani Moment”

• We should write a book on how to ruin Thanksgiving dinner

• The United States Government has killed a holocaust worth of people

• The Middle East are angry because we are occupying their land

  • Children dying

    • Bombing hospitals

    • Bombing water supplies

    • Bombing weddings

  • Imposing sanctions

• We are not a “Christian Nation.”

  • Anarchism is what Jesus would do

• What would happen if other nations treated Americans the way we treat the Middle East?

  • We would not remain peaceful

• The US made Al-Qaeda recruitment easy through:

  • Drone strikes

  • Dropping bombs

  • Killing families

19:54 – Everyone has a man crush on Ron Paul

• Christians don’t vote

• Even Ron Paul, who:

  • Used the platform honorably

  • Woke many people up

  • Influenced culture

  • Used the system against itself

• If Ron Paul couldn’t change the system, no one can

• Anarchists don’t vote

• The state and military are backed by Satan

• Power corrupts even the best of intentions

  • Be it political or military

• Jamie’s dad’s speech annoyed him

  • But it helped him to understand Ron Paul’s words

  • Left him open to the truth

38:30 - Should we pull the troops back and simply defend the US?

• No one is going to come and kill Americans

  • There are 400 million guns in the US

• Taking guns from everyone does not make sense

  • More money and power will go to the state

  • Gun control is a means of controlling people

• Other countries have no interest in attacking the US

  • There is no advantage to doing so

    • Scott Horton and anitwar.com

• We can’t put military bases across the world without upsetting some people

  • There is no such thing as peacekeeping soldiers

  • They appear as an occupying force

• Our government is our biggest threat

  • China isn’t taking half my pay

  • China is not taking our guns away

  • China is not killing my neighbour for smoking weed

• Those who don’t vote have the right to complain about who is in power

  • Voters give power to the system through participation

  • They love it when their side is in control but not when the opposition has power

• Murray Rothbard – For a New Liberty: The Libertarian Manifesto

48:55 – Talking young people out of joining the military

• Jamie meets a lot of young people

  • They ask him for advice regarding joining the military

  • He asks them, “Why do you want to join the military?”

    • Establishes their reasoning

  • Often they say it because they feel they should

    • This is due to propaganda

  • Follow-up questions revolve around their answers

    • If they say they feel that they should, he asks “Do you come from a patriotic family?” and “What’s so patriotic about joining the military?”

  • Maybe it is more patriotic to stay home and build communities and families

    • Use their own reasoning and apply it to them not joining up

  • “What’s so exciting about getting your leg blown off for oil?”

  • Blow up their narrative

  • Every war since WWII that the US has been involved in is illegal under the constitution

  • Who wants to kill people they don’t even know?

54:58 – Do the police help?

• They didn’t prevent the slaughter of children in Uvalde

• The Supreme Court says they have no duty to protect anyone

• In an anarchist society, there is no monopoly on protection services

• Covid proved that police exist to protect the state

  • And politicians

• Libertarian views might not be socially appropriate

  • But we should open our mouths anyway

  • Be honest

• The military treats individuals like trash

  • Pawns in wars

  • No life skills outside the military

    • People get stuck

1:00:19 – We won’t all agree

• If you ask Craig a question, you will get his honest answer

• People do not all agree

  • If a voluntary society came tomorrow, people would still argue philosophy

  • Life is not black and white – Craig

  • There’s room for nuance – Jamie

• The military-industrial complex is the murdering wing of the state

  • It’s using Americans to build an agenda

• The Army military recruitment is down tremendously

  • Go woke, go broke

  • 20 years of war might have woken people up

  • The military has a serious recruiting problem – Congress must fix it

  • If numbers are down, will something new happen to make people patriotic?

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69. From angry An-Cap to peaceful Christian with John Krueger

About this Episode

Craig is joined by John Krueger for a conversation about his journey from being an angry Anarcho-Capitalist to a peaceful Anarcho-Christian. Unjust police killings, SWAT raids gone wrong and harsh lockdowns made John angry. He was eager to learn how to use a gun and imagined himself needing to protect his family from police violence. In the midst of this, the Holy Spirit met John and showed him a peaceful option.

Libertarian philosophy is peaceful, but we need Jesus and His word to have the whole picture. Craig and John advocate for Christian pacifism and examine what was going on in their hearts at the points when they both contemplated joining the military. Craig and John discuss the libertarian and Christian anarchist positions on the decriminalization of drugs, the real needs of terrorists, the US at war, gun control, and other contentious current issues.

The state is coercion and violence. Laws are enforced with fines that are begrudgingly paid to avoid the threat of violence or time spent in a cage. You cannot make people peaceful like this, using the state’s methods. But rather, we need to be those who allow the Holy Spirit to work in us to change the hearts and minds of those surrounding us; that is how social change works in the Kingdom. Let’s listen to Jesus and do things His way, forsaking violence and anger. Let’s work towards peace.

Connect with John Krueger on

• Practical Christology

• TikTok

Episode Timestamps:

1:27 – Who is John Krueger?

• From Columbus, Ohio

  • Grew up attending church

• 1 Corinthians 5:9-13 stood out

  • Paul writes about grace

• Journey to anarchism

  • Read Blue Like Jazz

    • Jesus was not a republican or a conservative

    • Became politically independent

  • Eventually considered voting

    • Began researching libertarianism

      • Clicked with his understanding of the Grace of God

  • Took a few more years to become an anarcho-capitalist

8:58 – Libertarians, drugs, and terrorists

• It’s easy to understand decriminalizing marijuana 

• Harder to understand decriminalizing heroin use

  • People shouldn’t be locked in a cage for it

  • People should be free to make their own choices

    • Provided they aren’t hurting others

• Osama Bin Laden needed Jesus

  • Not bombs

  • We can’t bomb people into peace

    • If we bomb all sinners, there will be no one left

• John and Craig let go of the war stuff last

  • The history of the Middle East is important

  • The US is still at war

    • More people are mad at the US for continuously bombing them

• Jesus said in His Kingdom:

  • You rule by washing feet

    • Only pagans lord it over their subjects

  • But instead, our “Christian Nation” goes to war

    • To spread democracy

• We don’t need the government for roads

• We don’t need police

• Losing friends because of speaking out about:

  • Getting troops home

  • Veteran suicides

  • Broken men and families

  • Sending the poor to fight a rich man’s war

20:11 – Craig and John considered joining the military

• Craig wanted to kill people out of anger after 911

  • Application rejected

    • 4 pounds over the weight limit

• John wanted to join the military because he felt powerless

  • Wanted to be great in battle - like David

  • Experienced God’s compassion for those killed on both sides

• Christians still justify war and killing

  • Jesus said when you have seen me, you have seen the Father

  • There is nothing about Jesus’ life that says you can kill in war

• Pacifism is the way for Christians

  • Craig still gets a hard time from Christians for his pacifist stance

  • The early church was 100% pacifist

    • Even to their own deaths

  • Jesus healed the Roman soldier and admonished Peter

    • When Jesus disarmed Peter, he disarmed every Christian

26:24 – Libertarians and Gun Control

• After shootings those on the left talk about taking away guns

• But guns will be taken away by force

  • Giving more power to the state

• Need to study history

• We don’t advocate for gun control

  • It’s enforced by violence

  • We should bear God’s peace instead

• The left sees calls to reduce state size as calls to let people starve

• John does not own guns, 

  • Only advocates for less government action

• We don’t use the state for any reason

• The same people who take guns away are those who shoot unarmed black men

• Fines are enforced through the threat of violence

• The ‘hero’ who ended the life of a would-be shooter still ended a life

• Jesus would not be training churches to enact violence

• We are here to bring the gospel to people

37:10 – From angry An-Cap to peaceful Christian Anarchist

• When John was an An-Cap he was angry at the state

  • Police killings made him angry

  • Made him want to get into guns

• Angry at government shutdowns because of shutdowns

• Holy Spirit showed him it would be better to defy the government in peaceful ways

  • Sneakily helping people

  • Blessing those who curse

  • Not needing to worry about what to say in front of judges

• Libertarians are never happy with the government

  • No matter who is in power they are stuffing everything up

  • Anger is not the fruit of the spirit

• Romans 11-14 need to be read together

  • Our heart position should be peaceful

• Libertarians need Jesus to have the full picture

42:48 – Romans 13 and libertarianism

• “Submit” and “obey” are not the same

  • When Christians get it wrong: 

    • They end up supporting government atrocities

    • Lives will be ruined

    • The state becomes an idol

• The early church withheld communion from people who worked for the state

  • Unless people were already soldiers

    • And had sworn off killing or oppressing people

    • None wore their weapons

    • All were to serve

• Getting Christians into power will not help

  • It is no longer Christianity

• The power is the wrong power

  • The Holy Spirit is the only power we need

  • Political power is force

  • Christians do not need to take the ”Seven Mountains” of power

  • These do not sound like Jesus

• Polycarp would not denounce Jesus

  • In the face of his own death

  • King Jesus has never done me any harm

• Everything that the state does harms somebody in some fashion

  • If they are helping you, they are harming someone else

  • The state is not a protector

• Jesus Christ is the only King

  • He wants the best for us

54:12 – How should we pray for government?

• We should pray for government and leaders

  • Craig prays for the state to end

  • The current chaos is caused by the state

  • We need to follow Jesus and walk away

  • John prays for leadership to know the gospel

    • Not the American folklore

    • But the true gospel

• Craig will take the words of the early church fathers over pastors

  • When modern pastors disagree with the early church

  • They still screwed things up

  • They aren’t Jesus

  • They were closer in time to Jesus

  • We need to get back to that

    • What we are doing now as the church is not working

• The Reformers had a blind spot when it came to the church

  • They killed people

• The Anabaptists became the Mennonites and Amish

  • They were peaceful

• Catholics are going back to mysticism

  • The church fathers and grace teachings

1:02:54 – Let’s bring it back to Jesus

• Listen to Jesus

  • Love your neighbor

  • Love your enemy

  • Love God

• It’s impossible to follow His teachings

  • But we should try:

    • Working towards good

    • Not working toward violence

    • Not working towards anger or hate

    • Working towards peace

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68. Tyrants be Gone with Duncan Palmer

About this Episode

The Kingdom of God is at hand! Duncan Palmer joins Craig for a discussion of what the Good News entails and a key point that Christians are missing today: The Kingdom of God is here and now. Poor Bible translations go all the way back to Augustine, leading God’s people into confusion about their purpose. For example, ‘ecclesia’ is often rendered ‘church’ in modern translations, whereas a better translation refers to a gathering or assembly of people who managed the local city. The only God-ordained governance structure is the ecclesia, which happens when the church willingly submits to servant leadership and God’s laws alone. 

Craig and Duncan discuss the historical points where the church went wrong, then turn to Duncan’s article “Tyrants be Gone: Say Hello to the New Boss”. There are no good guys in the fiefdoms of Satan; even your favorite candidate is nothing more than a tinpot tyrant playing with authority that does not belong to him. No human being is given authority to rule over another. Therefore, instead of participating in politics, Christians are to opt out, declare independence, and make worldly governments obsolete. When we do, we will usher in the Kingdom of God. We need to be creating things of value helping and encouraging each other, and trading amongst ourselves. Jesus invites us to live freely in this voluntary society. He welcomes us into the Kingdom of God! This is the missing part of the Good News!

Duncan’s article

Duncan’s Hive Blog Articles

Episode Timestamps:

2:25 – Introduce Duncan’s article

• Well shared in the discussion group

• Written so that people can get a glimpse of what the good news really is

3:33 – Who is Duncan Palmer?

• Grew up in America in the 50s and 60s

  • Heard that America was the freest country in the world

  • Republican family background

• Supported Ron Paul when he ran for office

• In the 90s, Duncan realised he was being extorted for tax money

  • Not as free as he thought

  • Taxation is a fraudulent system

• Learned from Larken Rose

  • Book: The Most Dangerous Superstition

  • Podcast: Outside the Cage

  • Not a believer but has a lot to say to Christians about neighbourly love and oppression

7: 11 – The importance of language

• Duncan uses the label anarchist

• Bad Bible translations are of the devil

• The Bible is misquoted, mistranslated, and misread

• Get back to the basic teachings of Christ

• Duncan’s definition of anarchist:

  • No human rulers  

  • God is the only legitimate ruler

  • He is a benevolent ruler

  • A Christ-archist or Thearchist

• The enemy has taken the term ‘anarchist’ and perverted its definition

  • It doesn’t mean bomb throwing radicals out to destroy everything

  • Words ought to be our servants, not the other way around

• Voluntaryist

  • The Kingdom of God is based on voluntary interactions

    • Radically different from the kingdoms of the world

  • The ‘kings’ of this world have no legitimate authority

• The early church lived in a voluntary society

  • Anarchism and Christianity should be synonymous 

14:16 – The church is in bed with the state

• Learning the history of the church

• Craig has become fascinated by church history

  • Prior to Constantine

  • This is how the church should behave today too

  • They had their own disagreements

  • Universally recognized Jesus as King

  • Tertullian believed in Eternal Conscious Torment

  • Tertullian was vocal about the state

  • Some of the early church writers were taught directly by the apostles

    • Polycarp

    • The church has gone in the opposite direction of these writings

• Ecclesia – The gathering of people who managed the local city

• Duncan is reading through the New Testament in Greek

  • Trying to get the whole picture

  • Major points:

    • Ecclesia – church is a poor translation

    • Gathering, assembly or congregation might be better options

    • The church should guide the local population rather than the worldly institutions

• David Bently Hart

  • New Greek New Testament Translation of the Bible

  • Augustine translated the Bible from Latin not Greek

  • There are differences that change the meaning of the text

  • Mistranslations are being taught in the church

• 1 Corinthians 1:26 – Not too many bright believers verse

• The Curmudgeons Bible Library

  • Complaints about poor Bible translations

22:20 – How Duncan became a Christian Anarchist

• The state lies to everyone and imposing an illegal income tax

• The Law – Frederic Bastiat

  • Recommended reading

  • Very thin

  • Made Duncan realise that the only law that we should respect is God’s law

    • More than 400 instances of the word ‘law’ in the Bible maybe only a dozen of them reference human made laws.

    • Man-made laws are always spoken of with disdain

    • Romans 13:1 refers to God’s law not human mandates

• Christians are afraid of the other team, so they resort to using the state

26:52 - The church has gone wrong at a few historical points:

• Constantine co-opted the church

  • The church is to replace and obviate the rule of Satan on earth

•  Replacing the commandments of God with the traditions of men

  • During the Reformation

    • The Reformation did not go far enough

    • Reformers divided the world into ecclesiastical governments and civil government

    • A better distinction is the Kingdom of God and Fiefdoms of Satan

    • Civil government is seen as legitimate and desirable

    • Throughout scripture those structures are Satan’s government systems

    • Evil and influenced by demons

    • The church should be separate from those structures 

    • Jesus refused the authority that Satan tempted him with

    • The early church recognised this

• The Empire of the United States is crumbling

  • Current trajectory is unsustainable

  • Christians need to be ready for this

  • It is going to be chaotic and scary

  • If we follow Jesus everything will be fine

  • Secular anarchists could learn from Christians

  • It’s too exhausting to keep wasting time arguing about going back to the Mises Caucus

32:02 - The church should act as God’s new governance structure

• The Bible is a handbook for governance

• The only authority God grants the church is directly going to our brother, or bringing others into an argument or bringing conflicts before the whole ecclesia from where they may be ejected

• There is nowhere left to go when looking for somewhere where liberty can be found

• Seasteading: the idea that people could build communities out in the ocean

  • Out of the fiefdoms of Satan

  • We are supposed to be denying territorial jurisdictions

  • We are to be a Holy nation from every tribe and nation

  • Our common ruler Jesus is to be our common ground

• The good news of the Kingdom has been abandoned

  • John and Jesus preached it

  • There’s a new boss in town

  • We need to take power and authority to deny the tyrants around us

37:34 – Tyrant be Gone. Say hello to the New Boss

• The church is misunderstood

  • What we have now is not what was supposed to be

• There’s a new boss in town

• We’ve done a marginal job of letting people know who King Jesus is

  • We’ve misdirected everyone sitting in pews into worshipping the state

    • Romans 13 is mistranslated

    • Use as a bludgeon on the head of believers

    • Teaching to do everything as the government says to do it

  • Let every soul be subject to the highest authorities, namely God and His Word

    • The only true authority

• The government will be upon His shoulders

  • Is Afghanistan or China upheld by Jesus?

  • Christians seem to think that America is the good guy

    • Patently not true given all the overseas deaths caused by foreign policy

41:53 – There are no good guys at all in the fiefdoms of Satan

• The sooner the church realises that Jesus is in the process of destroying those fiefdoms the better

• The right number of Christians in office won’t make things better

• George W Bush said God wanted him to run for office

  • 9 months later the never-ending war began

• Ambassadors do not participate in government

  • We are to be God’s ambassadors

• The missing part of the good news of the Kingdom of God

  • The church pushes news of the Kingdom into some distant future

  • Whereas it should be here and now

• America is not your friend

  • America is not a saviour

  • It is destruction

46:34 - Aren’t you sick and tired of tyrants?

• Even your favourite candidate is a tyrant

• Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results

• People are scared of the Democrats or Republicans

  • So, they put libertarians in office

  • They are still putting someone in power over their brothers and sisters

    • Jesus didn’t say to do that

    • You see how the gentiles lord it over them? It should not be so among you

• Satan likes to divide and conquer

  • Splitting people into camps to do battle with each other

• The only power they have is to rob, hurt and enslave

• God has not ordained or authorised the state to do that

  • This is a lie from the deepest pit of hell

  • Backed by demons

  • Christians need to walk away and follow Jesus

• In light of Romans 13 how do you read Acts 5?

  • There are two different definitions of submission and obedience

  • There are a lot of poorly understood words

• The Bible calls for leadership that we voluntarily follow rather than dictatorships

  • The only legitimate rules are God’s laws

    • These rules are written on our hearts

    • Respect the scriptures, but don’t slavishly check every move we make

    • Follow Jesus’ law of love

• The calling as the assembly is to step out of the world, voluntarily submit to servant leadership in the church

• We are not to participate in the failed kingdoms of this world

  • Even the US is based on satanic principles

  • Instead become a decentralized replacement governance system

  • Acknowledge King Jesus and deny allegiance to any other jurisdiction

• People are not understanding this

• How do we make people see that the state is evil, and we should abstain from it?

• Comparison chart that shows principles that the state runs on versus what the ecclesia should be running on.

• Libertarian philosophy states we should not initiate violence

  • The state runs on violence

  • Violence in defence might have legitimate value

    • When providing for one’s own household

• No human being or group have legitimate rights to rule over other humans

  • Satan said in his heart that he would be like God

    • Ruling over people

    • Taking the place of God

  • People may rule over creation, but never other human beings

    • Only Jesus holds this right as creator

  • The state is committing the same crime as Satan

    • Asserting that they have the right to arbitrarily dictate to us what we must do

55:06 – Implementing God’s Kingdom

• Entering God’s Kingdom means we leave the kingdoms of the world

  • Leave them in the dustbin

  • Establish something superior

  • Make them obsolete

  • This is what it means to seek first the Kingdom of God

• Humanity will be drawn towards their true King when we do this

• Opt out of the state

  • And everything else will be added to you

• The church seems to have missed this important part of the good news the Kingdom of God

• The assembly needs to stop viewing the assembly as purely spiritual

  • Ecclesia is not a spiritual social club

• We need to be God’s Kingdom in this world

  • We need to be creators in this world

    • We reflect God when we create things of value

• We need to encourage each other through our occupations

• We need to help one another provide for our families

• Trade with one another

  • We need solid ‘weights and measures’ like Bitcoin

  • We need our own economic system

  • We need to encourage each other’s endeavours, such as the Bad Roman Project

    • Helping to expand God’s Kingdom in the world

• We need to encourage each other’s development in writing and the arts

  • We need to do these in the name of God

  • We need to help each other

• There is no church/state separation where churches are 501 C3 corporations

  • The church becomes subservient to Satan himself

• We need to declare our independence

  • Shelter our members from taxation and state depravations

• We need to be encouraging entrepreneurism 

  • Establishing enterprises

  • Bringing wealth into the Kingdom

    • Use the wealth to advance God’s Kingdom

• We need to declare independence from territorial jurisdiction

• Covid made it clear that the state is out to shut the church down

  • We need to push back

• We need more Christian podcasters flooding the arena with this

• Jesus’ generous offer is still available to us

  • Let those who are thirsty come

  • Take the water of life without cost

1:02:37 – 1 Timothy 6: 11-17

• Paul says to Timothy:

  • Pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love and steadfastness

  • He ties that good confession in with Jesus

• Jesus confessed before Pontius Pilate that His Kingdom is not of this world

• Jesus is the blessed and only sovereign, the King of Kings

• He dwells in unapproachable light

• He holds a branch of peace to His enemies

  • He hasn’t crushed them under His feet yet

• We need to be the assembly that draws people to Him

• Jesus says we can come and be a part of this voluntary society

  • We can live totally free

  • Jesus the only worthy ruler

  • He continues to bless us

• We just need to trust Jesus

• We have an eternity of God’s kindness to look forward to

  • And an entire universe to explore

  • A childlike wonder about the vastness of God and His creation

---

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67. What do gambling and voting have in common? with Paul Varkey

About this Episode

Craig is joined by Paul Parayil for his first-ever podcast appearance. Through his prolific and provocative writings, Paul advocates for liberty, truth, honesty, and the Kingdom of God. His blog and Facebook posts have garnered quite a following. In this episode, they discuss Paul's article, "Do you believe Gambling is a vice? I don't think you do". In the article, Paul grabs the attention of the evangelical right audience and shows how Christians engage in high-stakes gambling on something worse than cards. Fear produces voting, but just like casino gambling, the house (or the state) always wins.

When the church condones the state's violence, it fails to align with people's consciences, becoming a stumbling block. However, the church will find itself more attractive when Christians promote Jesus's basic teachings of self-governance and doing no harm. We use the term Christian Anarchist because a core component of Christianity has been lost. Instead, that which should be an obvious and natural occurrence in the church must be emphasized. Anarchy is implied, and the entire gospel message is summed up in one sentence: No King but Christ. 

Since the beginning of the church, we have had one King. Jesus never sought political office! It is morally inconsistent of us to believe we have the right to coerce our neighbors with political power gained through participation in state activities, be they politics or voting. We are more consistent with Jesus's actions when we serve from the fringes of society with love and charity. The beginning of the healing of this world is through peacefully walking away from the gamble that is voting.

Paul's social media: 

• FB Page: https://www.facebook.com/paul.varkey , 

• Hive blog

Episode Timestamps:

1:15 Introduce Paul

• Enjoys writing 

  • Initially, to clarify his own thoughts

  • Found others enjoy thinking outside the box and reading his writings

• Often interacting in various Christian Anarchist circles

• Family originally from India 

  • A family of practicing Christians 

  • When Paul was three, his parents immigrated to the Middle East (Saudi Arabia) and lived there until he graduated from high school

  • Christmas holidays were spent visiting family in India

• Education

  • Graduated high school in Saudi Arabia

  • Went back to India for college

  • Moved to the US as a graduate student in 2004

  • Moved to California to work as a software engineer in 2011

  • Been working in Tech since then

5:45 How did Paul come to Christian anarchy?

• Brought up as Christians in Saudi Arabia.

• Moved to Chicago at 21 years old

  • Began thinking about politics

  • Knew he was pro-life because it's a matter that evangelicals care about

  • Became a republican quickly

• Knew that his support for GOP was tribalism  

• Heard of Ron Paul and what he had to say about:

  • The Fed

  • The Military-Industrial Complex, https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/social-sciences/military-industrial-complex 

  • Regulatory capture of the big corporations

• Provoked into considering the logical inconsistency of his own beliefs 

  • Began looking into political libertarianism

  • Kicked and screamed for a few years into anarchy 

• Was not aware of Christian anarchism 

  • A closet Christian Anarchist 

  • No one to fellowship with

  • Craig also had a similar experience until he came across the Anarcho Christian Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/groups/645893438920507 

10:15 What is Christian Anarchism?

• The early church were anarchists 

  • Including Jesus 

• No title; the word didn't exist

  • But they practiced it

  • It was an obvious part of being a Christian

    • Do you tell people that you are a "virgin birthist"? 

    • There's no need to specify because most Christians believe in it

    • So it was with Christian anarchy in the early church 

  • A core message has been lost of how the kingdom of God works with nations here

• We've lost an essential message of the gospel, so we must use the label to emphasize it

• It's okay to disagree with others

  • Secular anarchists

  • Or even Paul of Tarsus

• It's more important to follow Jesus than anarchy

15:35 No King But Christ 

• Essentially communicates the whole gospel message 

  • While implying anarchy

• How are secular anarchists preaching better moral truths than the church? 

• Anarcho Christian Facebook group:

  • Don't all agree on Christian doctrines

  • They at least agree on the anarchist outlook

• More people seem to be latching onto anarchy

  • Self-rule

  • Do no harm

  • Don't take my things

  • Follow the basic teachings of Christ

• Voluntaryism doesn't trigger Christian minds to think of chaos.

• In the right-leaning "Christian" culture, there is an identification of patriotism and nationalism as the proper practicing of faith

20:30 Paul pokes the bear to make people think.

• The biggest tragedies of the church: 

  • We lost the concept of No King But Christ 

  • Colluding with the state

  • In both the Eastern Christian and Western church circles

  • We have compromised our values

22:46 Read Paul’s Article: "Do you believe Gambling is a vice? I don't think you do."

• Grabbing the attention of the evangelical right

  • It's addressed to people who think gambling is a vice or sin

• There is a loser in gambling

  • There is also a winner; it's always the house

• In the casino, most of the participants frequently lose

  • Some participants win big, keeping people hooked

  • The only one who wins is the house.

• Gambling is a vice because you produce no real wealth, 

  • One of us is poorer based on luck

  • There is nothing godly about this

• There is something far worse than gambling 

  • Christians engage in it regularly 

  • This form of gambling has a house, and the house always wins.

• When you vote, you wager your own life and liberties and securities.

  • Cannot recover lost freedoms back from the state through voting

  • You legitimize the beast through voting

29:05 What is voting?

• The state says, "Come along. All of you will lose some liberties, but some of you will have the chance to have less of your liberties taken."

• Fear takes over when people vote

• There are more than two people to choose from

31: 48 What is the state?

• Takes people's liberties

• Has never once shrunk

  • States grow or collapse.

• Taking the chance and succumbing to fear keeps the house growing

  • Yet people vote for candidates they don't like

• The idea of your "civic duties" being to vote is ridiculous

• "Go vote" is a religious mantra

• It doesn't matter to the elites who wins

  • The aura of the legitimacy of the beast improves when people show up to vote

  • Republicans are Democrats 2.0

  • Don't put others in power over your neighbours

36:00 God alone gives liberty 

• Jesus sets us free, not the US

  • There may be some good outcomes from voting

    • God makes good come from evil

• Paul's moral analysis of voting is the reason he doesn't

  • I don't have the right to dominate my neighbour

    • No coercing them to behave the way I want

    • Unlikely to bring more liberty

    • It's still a gamble

• Anarchists joining libertarian parties promote the state

39.00 Why don't Christians just walk away?

• One solution to the problems of government

  • Peacefully walk away

  • Christians should know this and opt out

• The empire is falling and we already have a King

  • Power will corrupt

  • You will lose while growing the state

• If someone is addicted to any addictive substance, they cannot go cold turkey

  • Voting gives a dopamine hit

  • If you feel the need to vote, at least vote for a third party

  • Take other political actions 

• The Libertarian parties will never take over the state

  • Their message is good

• Paul does more good outside of political processes 

  • Being morally consistent with his beliefs

• If anyone was going to change the US system, it would have been Ron Paul

  • You cannot change the mafia from the inside 

  • The point of the mafia is to be the mafia

  • Ron Paul changed awakened people https://www.thefamouspeople.com/profiles/ron-paul-5118.php 

• Voting is a risk; why not simply obey Jesus Christ?

• When Satan tempted Jesus with authority, He didn't rebuke Satan, telling him that the authority was not his to give. Instead, He said, "No, I'm good." https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%204%3A1-11&version=NIV 

• Likewise, Christians should say, "No, I'm good." 

  • rather than seek power

  • Seek Jesus as our King

• The early church writings show:

  • They had no interest in the Roman Empire 

  • Tertullian called the affairs of the state foreign https://quotepark.com/authors/tertullian/quotes-about-the-world/

  • The kingdom of God is a literal Kingdom

  • Their King did not use a sword against Caesar and Pilot 

  • They expanded the kingdom through love, charity, and service

  • From outside the system

• Christians can enrich anarchism with the teachings of Christ

---

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66. To Vote or Not to Vote with Stephen of Anarcho-Christian

About this Episode

Stephen is from Anarcho-Christian, our brother-in-Christ podcast. He has spent the last 6 years providing an online presence and community for people like us. He has a way of expressing many viewpoints on a hotly debated topic, so we’ve invited him into our conversation on voting. 

Midterms are fast approaching. As people who serve only one King, we must consider whether we ought to participate in the kingship of others. Is it ever justifiable to participate in choosing laws and rulers for our neighbors? How involved should an anarchist really be in politics? How involved should a Christian be? Is there a difference? Listen for our take on these and other questions relating to the issue.

Episode Timestamps:

1:45 Unbiased

• Not like Fox news

  • “We report; you decide

    • (what we tell you because everything we put out is incredibly biased)”

• Debating this is good, but not on this episode

  • Discuss and let people reach their own conclusions

  • Easier said than done because of strong opinion

    • Christians should have nothing to do with voting

3:07 Facebook page disappeared

• Because they were getting too popular?

  • Facebook didn’t like their message

• Flagged unspecified memes

• No power or tools to fight back

  • Just had to wait

  • Found a workaround

• Bad Roman page is not allowed to boost posts

  • When Craig is drunk, he approves of Nate’s ornery memes

    • Then Craig gets in trouble with

      • Facebook

      • And the show producer

        • Can’t go too far with posts because losing Facebook means losing access to the majority of the fan base

• Don’t want to lose what so much work has gone into

• Having AnarchoChristian back on Facebook takes some of the heat off Bad Roman

8:14 Should anarchists vote?

• Is voting consistent with anarchist philosophy?

• Some people separate Christianity and anarchy

  • Others feel it’s entwined

  • Stephen came to anarchy by growing in his faith

• What’s the intent of voting?

• What are you voting on?

  • Is it federal or is it about your local library?

    • We don’t usually get to vote on community-level decisions

• Some anarchists wind up back in the libertarian party 

  • Saying they’re trying to get a message out

    • Seems inconsistent to be in politics

  • You can reach people within the party without joining the party

• Pulling out of politics almost feels like joining a monastery

  • Away from the evils of the world 

  • Never going back

  • Putting faith entirely on God 

    • Instead of faith in God plus worrying about whether the more evil guy wins the election

    • Good for mental health

• Defensive political action vs action to bring good

• Some people believe they can wield the power to bring about God’s Kingdom

• Maybe it’s a neutral decision

  • Maybe it’s okay to take political action

  • And maybe it’s just as okay not to

19:36 Should Christians get involved in politics?

• Should we peacefully protest everything?

• Even “setting people free” from the slavery of the current political system

  • Is slavery

    • Because they didn’t have a choice

• The motivation to vote is that our country is like a train

  • The 2 current parties are competing to send the train over the cliff faster

  • The libertarian party might at least be able to slow it down

  • Other people would rather let it crash and burn

    • We can rebuild better and faster

    • Why focus on something that is doomed?

    • “Empires fall; let it burn” - Craig

• Ron Paul actually did make a difference with his presidential campaign

  • He got involved to get a message out

  • Converted a good number of people to libertarianism

    • Directly and by starting a chain of influence

  • Got them involved with each other

  • Many have since converted to anarchism

  • Most normies will listen to a political candidate before a random dude’s libertarian podcast

• But he also proved that the mafia cannot be changed from the inside

  • Why should anarchists try to change it by voting or involvement when even the great Ron Paul failed?

  • The Republican party blocked him from succeeding

• At this point, 

  • People are frustrated with the government’s response to COVID-19

  • They see the immorality

  • They see the flaws of a 2-party system

  • Inflation is affecting them

  • If someone were to get up and speak to them from a political stage, they might move toward anarchy

29:26 Christian anarchy

• The early church was anarchist

  • So was Jesus

• The word ‘Christian’ has come to imply ‘anarchist’ to Craig

  • Because it’s obviously how we’re supposed to be

  • Voting for someone to rule over your neighbor is not justifiable

    • Jesus said Christians will not lord it over each other

    • We come to serve, not be served

• “As a Christian, what do you think is moral about going and trying to put somebody in power over your neighbor?” - Craig

• We have to understand that people don’t yet understand

  • They don’t grasp the monopoly on violence or voluntarism

  • They don’t speak our language or know what we’re referring to

• We must look at a person’s heart motive

  • Are they demanding a king to replace God?

    • Many Trump supporters are definitely putting their faith in their president

    • Republican is synonymous with Christian

    • People put way too much of their identity in politics 

      • And mix it with religion

  • If, in 1 Samuel, God says choosing a king is rejecting Me

    • Is voting for rulers now rejecting God?

    • Is it a sin to vote?

  • Is a person voting defensively or in an attempt to change the world for good?

    • Their focus would seem to not be on getting a king

• Defensive voting

  • Asking permission to not be taxed

  • Still gives the ruler power

• Empires fall

  • The US empire is going down

    • There’s no point in trying to save it

  • We’re creating money out of thin air, constantly increasing our debt

  • People get freaked out by outside forces coming to harm us

    • We’re already being harmed

• Inflation

  • Didn’t start with Biden

  • Trump pumped $2 trillion of fake money into our economy

  • People generally blame the government

    • But they don’t know what they’ve specifically done to cause the problem

    • It’s the printing of money without anything behind it

    • It’s taxes and tariffs

  • Propaganda

    • Inflation is good!

    • It’s all Putin’s fault!

    • Nobody could have seen this coming!

  • Anarchists are generally more aware of what is actually happening

• 2-party system

  • Taught, “We have to beat these guys cuz they’re the worst.”

    • Pick the lesser of 2 evils

  • People want to get someone perfect in who will 

    • Shut down the Department of Education or the CIA

    • Fulfill their dreams

    • Make everything better

    • The system will never allow them to win

  • Small changes have occurred

    • But nothing that will stop the train

• 50% of the country doesn’t vote

  • We’re halfway there!

  • People get nervous

    • If we stop, then our enemy will win the election

      • So, maybe if we all jump to the third party, we can beat them all

      • And maybe we can use the system to tackle local issues

• All politicians will lie or make exceptions at some point

  • Power corrupts

  • Even Ron Paul voted us into war

  • People might get into politics with good intentions

    • But when you’ve joined the mafia, you’re part of the mafia

    • Unrelated projects slipped into bills

  • Same with cops

    • Gotta make compromises to avoid getting fired

  • One could go in with the intent of causing a ruckus and not care about re-election

    • But it’s unlikely

    • And what kind of difference could it really make?

49:48 Roe v Wade and other big decisions

• So many people are celebrating

• It feels nefarious

• Government promises of good

  • Almost always have something bad attached

  • Even if it really is good for one group

    • It hurts someone else

    • Or hurts everyone in a different realm of life

• Printing money seems great

  • Until a year later when inflation skyrockets

53:26 Just keep following Jesus

• “Christ set us free, not the United States of America.” - Craig

• He has our best interest at heart

  • Guaranteed, the state does not

---

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65. Reclaiming Church with Dan Morrison

About this Episode

Craig is joined by the Rev. Dr. Dan Morrison, Assistant Rector of All Saint Anglican Church in Springfield, Missouri. Dan brings his plethora of experience and knowledge of scripture to the show for a conversation on the original role of the Church and how modern Christianity is living up to the model Jesus set forth over 2,000 years ago. 

Why do Christians seek solutions through political systems of power and fail to remember those are the very systems that murdered our savior? How did we get here, and how can we reclaim Churches for Jesus rather than sell out to the state and its illusions for physical and spiritual freedom? Too often we forget it is Jesus who makes us free, but that freedom is not freedom from suffering, but rather a call towards it. It should be difficult to be a citizen of heaven in a fallen world, but that is when we need to turn to God most.

In divinity school Dan became an expert on the book of Revelations, he shares his expertise and vision for the future of Churches with Craig, as well as some perspective on how we have gotten so off course as Christians. Listeners will leave this episode with a renewed desire to pursue Christ over politics, to not fall trap to the illusions of earthly power, but to instead do what Jesus would do, turn from the earthly kingdoms, and show the world what it means to know the love of God.

Episode Timestamps:

00:35 Shoutout to Amber

01:06 Dan’s Background

• Assistant Rector All Saint Anglican Church in Springfield, MI

• Undergrad in classical applied math

• Ph.D. in Divinity studies

• Roll-tide or Razorbacks?

03:30 Dan’s Sermon 

05:36 Why are Christians seeking solutions through political systems?

• Do christians truly trust God as the ruler of all things?

• Christians are called to suffer in following Jesus

  • We live in a fallen world, the systems of the world ar destined to fall…yet we latch onto them instead of God 

• Fear vs. Jesus

  • the two-party system – voting against vs. for something

• Illusions of changing the system from within

• Joining the military

  • Asses what you are doing and why

    • Don’t lose sight of Christ’s way

• World systems have been allowed to infiltrate the churches

  • Result: churches look more like the world than Christ

11:20 Two Responses to September 11, 2001

• Preach the gospel or kill people out of anger

• Profiling others (only God can judge anyone)

• Christians on the right and left

  • Being a “Christian nation” (are we the good guys?)

    • The deadliness of the United States Empire

  • “Hold my beer”

14:06 Who do we worship at Church? 

• Jesus, Troops, Flags, and Afghanistan

• Romans 13

  • But first: Romans 12

• Killing other Christians (or anyone) for the sake of a geopolitical nation

  • Partisan agendas and scripture

    • Conquest in the old testament – Joshua

    • Can’t pick and choose, must then look at the old testament text about care for the foreigner, ect.

    • It’s all or nothing or in consistency

17:50 The Consistency of Jesus – who will you follow?

• We don’t follow Paul or Joshua, we follow Jesus and his teachings

  • “When you’ve seen me you’ve seen the father”

  • Jesus is who set us free – take that seriously, opt. Out

    • Galatians 5:1 – USA is not who set us free

19:07 The World is Watching – What are you going to do as a Christian?

• The state is going to do what the state is going to do

• We forget who we belong to as Christians

  • Or we just ignore it

• “America” is not even the United States of America (i.e. remember Canada, South America, Central America, and Mexico?)

  • Jerusalem and USA 

    • False belief: God created the USA on purpose to protect Israel

• Paul’s statement of the Israel of God reconciled with Romans 13

  • Romans 13 in light of Romans 12

• Jesus never gives us the power to call done fire from heaven upon anyone

  • If you think that’s what being Christian is about then you don’t get Jesus

• Loving your neighbor and enemy leaves you with no one left to hate

22:33 Romans 13 out of context — the Jump to the White Horse of Revelations 

• Revelation 1

  • God as Jesus Christ ruler of Kings on Earth

• Revelation 4

• Revelation 17

  • Will God rain fire?

  • “John’s 3rd Vision”

    • People with Jesus do nothing but ride in behind him, no one is slayed

  • Destruction of Babylon – Romans 17 Verse 16

    • World Sytems implode on themselves, their failure is baked into their creation before Jesus ever shows up

• We are going to kill people in the name of Jesus does not add up

  • God never tells us to do that

• Nations get stricken down because they have waged war against Christ himself

• Churches – fix yourselves!

• The systems are powered by satan

  • Will we appeal to the empire to feel safe or dare to follow Jesus

• Jezebel – welcome in the imperialism in the church

  • The false hope of political power

• Churches are in bed with the empire

31:38 Difficulty of Finding a Church that has Jesus as the Focus

• Home church?

• Pushback from Dan’s sermon on revelation

35:47 January 6, 2021

• Christians trying to save their earthly king

• Civil Religion

  • People have become enchanted as if by a spell

• Did God stop being ruler? 

• Ruling by proxy, shifting blame to please God

  • Outsourcing sin

• Paul could not have voted Cesar into power

  • Pray for those in authority over us

 43:09 Romans 13 – Paul uses Submit vs. Obey

• David Bentley Hart New Testament Tranaslation original greek

  • Peter: “It is necessary we obey God rather than man”

• Rosa Parks

• Abortion debate and submit or obey

  • Following the constitution

  • Live in a world where abortion is not seen as a choice, not one the government has a say so in

  • Don’t celebrate anything the government does

• With the reversal of Roe v. Wade — what is there left to run on?

• Should Christians be voting?

  • Why are you going to the world systems that caused the death of your savior?

  • Being in bed with the beast vs. suffering under the foot of the beast

51:26 Choose this day (and every day) who you will serve

• Frustration with Christians and a relentless need to follow Jesus 

• The term we translate as Church is also a political term

  • Eclessica – a local gathering of the citizens of God that have come together for a purpose

54:29 Daniel I. Morrison’s Plugs

• Facebook 

• Twitter & Instagram

• Allsaintsspringfeild.org

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64. Is Jesus King? with Ian Minielley

About this Episode

Ian Minielly has written several articles for the Bad Roman and most recently is the author of the book The Genetic God. He is passionate about the church worshiping Jesus without the state and encouraging people to seek first His Kingdom. 

Who is our king? Many people would respond that we don’t have one in America. But Christians do. We have a global King. Our president is the furthest person on Earth from meeting God’s standards for a ruler. We do not meet those standards. No one does but Jesus. He is our King.

Episode Timestamps:

00:20 

• Are you fit to rule over your neighbor or are they fit to rule over you?

• “People wanting to clamor for a new king because they want their team to win, but who exactly is fit to be king?” - Craig

1:52 Inspiration for the article

• Watching football

  • Political ads

• Read Deuteronomy 17

  • Guidelines for a king

  • God’s warns them

    • “Kings are bad, but I know you’ll want one, so here’s how to best do that”

  • When they did get a king, they went against most of the guidelines

    • All presidents swear an oath to the Constitution

      • All presidents break that oath

        • Why are they making new laws if they can’t even keep the ones

          • Legislators should be hired to abolish laws, not add more

• Figured out politicians never do what they promise

  • At age 31

  • Could not continue to be made the fool who believed it would fix things if a certain person was in office

    • When the house, senate, and presidency have all been 1 side, things have still not improved

      • In fact, they’ve had power to do worse things

    • People think they gotta get the right justice into the supreme court

  • People vote out of fear

  • Craig was 43 when he realized politicians don’t help anything

• Double-minded thinking

  • 1 John 2

    • “Do not love anything of the world.”

    • Pastor said that,

      • Ian looked at his wife, 

        • Who tried to avoid eye contact

        • He was obviously about to point out the contradiction

          • In 2 weeks, they were going to have a big 4th of July USA celebration

          • Which is something of the world

13:50 

• II Timothy 3:16

  • All Scripture is useful

    • Random passage in Deuteronomy completely changed Ian’s view on politics

    • Only read it as part of a yearly reading plan

      • But it made him realize that our politicians are not legitimate kings

        • Only Jesus is

14:44 Why do Christians vote?

• They’re indoctrinated to believe that’s their responsibility

• Of course, they’re choosing between the most depraved people in the country

  • Twist Romans 13

• The pulpit has failed

  • Those in pews think they’re supposed to focus on Earthly matters

• The empire is falling

• “Everything the state touches, they screw up. Why in the hell are you going out there and putting more people in power? Why don't you just walk away?” - Craig

  • Right before COVID, many people were starting to realize this

    • So why are people still trusting the state at this point??

  • It’s like we’re in Babylonian captivity

    • Daniel and his friends refused to eat the king’s food

      • Everyone else ate it and fell ill

      • Those 4 men were healthy and strong

    • Most people are choosing to live like Babylonians

      • Doing what’s expected to survive

    • Daniel chose to worship God even when the law said only the king

      • Thrown in the lions’ den, but not consumed

    • Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego refused to bow to the idol

      • Thrown in the furnace, but did not burn

    • We refuse to eat the king’s food

      • We’re spread throughout the country as tiny beacons of light

  • When in Rome…

    • When in the United States, 

      • Act like an American

    • No. We are citizens of the Kingdom

    • “We have subjugated our real identity in Jesus, underneath the identity of a flag in whatever the national government over us is. And so we are a fractured people.” - Ian

  • “Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music.” - Friedrich Nietzsche

    • We’re not seen as beacons of light

    • People think we’re nuts

    • We’re going against the grain

    • “I got told the other day that at work. ‘You don't have a reason to complain cuz you don't even vote.’ That's the dumbest thing ever. I said, ‘You don't have a reason to complain. You asked for all of this, you asked for every bit of tyranny that you're getting.’” - Craig

21:55 Ways Christians have been manipulated to vote

• Against godless communism

• Against abortion

• 9/11

  • Craig even tried to join the National Guard

    • But was 4 whole pounds overweight

      • His momma is grateful for those 4 pounds

  • His friend got in

    • As soon as he arrived, they were in a fire fight

  • They wanted to go preach the Gospel

24:32 National (religious?) holidays

• Church service on American holidays

  • Service members stand and applauded for

  • Pledge to the flag

• The state has 100% infiltrated the church

  • Jesus Untangled by Keith Giles

• Ian got saved while in the army

  • The church on base was all about military

  • It’s a miracle he got saved there

    • The mindset was all about going overseas and killing humans

  • He just started reading the Bible

    • Realized everything he believed was wrong

    • He still has worldly thought patterns to break

• Christians vote because

  • They were raised on state worship

  • They’re taught to salute flags and stop when they hear the national anthem

  • That’s what good conservatives/Christians do 

    • If you don’t, you cannot be a good Christian

  • “They don't see how it's counter to our faith to worship the state and ask the state to do all these things.” - Ian

    • Gotta have a big, powerful state

    • Sell weapons to Ukrainians and Saudis so they can kill

      • Because it keeps Americans employed

      • “They got money to go to war, but they can’t feed the poor.” - Tupac

      • Why do people support that??

        • The Russians are image-bearers of God!

      • “The only good those planes might be able to do is if you took all those gun racks and bomb racks off and you put little parachute racks on there and they just dropped Bibles all over the world.” - Ian

      • “The next eight countries in the world don't spend as much on the military as the United States does, yet I'm supposed to think that China's a threat to me.” - Ian 

        • The US government is my enemy

          • China doesn’t steal my money

          • They’re not here right now

          • Muhammad Ali refused the draft, saying “I ain’t got no quarrel with those Vietcong.”

    • In Deut 7, God says you don’t want a king who’s after chariots and war

      • Yet that seems to be what everyone chases after

        • Ron Paul said he would cut the military and got cut from the race

    • He also warned that a king would take 10% of the people’s earnings

      • We sure give our “king” a lot more than that

      • Maybe we were better off under the monarchy

        • The Tea Party was about taxes less than 3%

    • People standing up to the war machine

      • Muhammad Ali

        • Refused the Vietnam draft

      • Laurence M. Vance

        • Written books on the topic

      • Kaepernick

        • Football player took a knee to protest police brutality

  • Now, players who don’t want to salute just stay in the locker room

    • They all used to do that

    • Until the government started buying ads to support the NFL

    • Now, players are expected to display patriotism on the field

    • If you have any influence and you stand against the machine, the government will work to destroy you

    • Some people stopped watching football because of players kneeling during the anthem

    • Just watch the game for the game and ignore the circus around it

      • They want you to focus on that

        • So you shouldn’t

    • There’s tons of army recruitment commercials

38:31 Is there anyone who is fit to be king?

• Israel wanted a king because everyone else had one

  • Made them feel like they had earthly power

• “I think I'm a pretty morally upstanding guy, but make me president, and I'm gonna make people do things they don't want to do.” - Ian

  • “I want to use the power of the state to force them to act how I think a morally upright person should, which is completely not morally upright.” - Ian

• If you want a president who makes war, raises taxes, spends lots of money, purposely keeps the population enslaved in poverty, 

  • That person exists

  • If you don’t want that,

    • Don’t vote

    • Because that’s what you’re going to get no matter what

• Libertarians believe if they had the power, these problems would go away

  • “If you wanted to spread a message of Liberty, then you'd be talking about Jesus.” - Craig

    • Not about getting some guy elected

  • People try to get Craig to run for office

    • Can’t change the mafia from the inside

      • Can only change their hearts with Jesus

40:56 Tell people about Jesus

• They might say He wasn’t real

  • What if He wasn’t?

    • What do we lose by following His teachings?

    • How would the world be different

      • If “Christians” followed Jesus?

    • Christians can’t even envision it

      • Because they’ve been too ingrained with the state

41:40 Seek ye first the Kingdom

• Luke 12

• Jesus is dropping truth bombs

  • A dude interrupts to ask Jesus to tell his brother to share the inheritance

  • Jesus tells the story of the rich fool

    • He had plenty

    • His harvest was huge

    • Rather than share or even sell it, he built bigger barns

      • Needed it all for himself

    • He wanted to eat, drink, and be merry

    • He died. God took his breath

  • Don’t worry about Earthly possessions

    • Seek His Kingdom, and all you need will be provided

    • God knows you need food, clothing, shelter, and security

      • Stop chasing after those 4 things

      • Chase after Him!

      • Everyone’s doing it backwards

      • They live their life and maybe volunteer for VBS once a year

      • “From morning till sunrise or sunset all day long, you pursue the Kingdom.” - Ian

        • Are you talking to people about Jesus?

      • “That stuff is so interesting because He's already said it's gonna be provided and yet, people still worry about it.” - Craig

      • Only Satan could convince us to chase those 4 things

      • Our society’s structure

        • No one likes work

          • They’re upset they’re not at home with their family

        • Husband and wife are both working

          • Send kids off to the free indoctrination camp

          • To learn to become plantation workers

        • Develop heart problems at 60

          • Don’t get retirement benefits

          • Whole life wasted

      • If people would pursue God instead

        • Probably would have smaller house and truck

        • But not regretting living to stuff the pockets of the government

      • It’s hard though, because new trucks are so shiny and cool

47:27 Did God put the president in power?

• If you believe determinism

• But those rulers are handpicked by evil people because they are the most corrupt

  • God wouldn’t pick the most corrupt

  • He can use the most corrupt

    • But He wouldn’t select such bloodthirsty individuals

• Biden was handpicked well in advance and put on the US throne

• God didn’t pick Trump either!!

• God picked Jesus

  • “God has Him ready to be the leader of every single person's life in the entire world.” -Ian

51:32 Isolation

• The Bad Roman lets people know that they're not the only one sitting in church gritting their teeth on national holidays

• Elijah felt isolated

  • Until God let him know about a remnant he had kept 

• People who've given up and left church can know that not all Christians worship the state 

• “Jesus freed us from thinking the way that we think today. He freed us from that; He broke those shackles. But the government is extremely good at getting people to put those shackles back on.” - Ian

  • All they gotta do is make you scared

    • And then offer security

---

Related Episodes

Related Blog Post

63. Universal Salvation with Abby Cleckner, Aree Spivey & Scott Goldman

About this Episode

Three brilliant minds join us on this episode to talk about what made them decide Christian universalism makes the most sense compared to other theologies. They share their personal stories as well as Scriptures to explain why Hell cannot exist, everyone will be together with Jesus in the end, and what that means for our current life here on Earth. These three are Abby Cleckner, Scott Goldman, and Aree Spivey from Failed Kingdoms – the artist of our intro song. Find him on YouTube and Kindle Vella, among other platforms.

God is love. God is just. God is infinitely merciful. God is not willing that any should perish. So, why do most Christians balk at the idea that God doesn’t send people to eternal punishment or obliterate them after death? We’ve been trained in what the correct answers are and never to question what the pastor says. But have you ever even truly thought it through for yourself?

Episode Timestamps:

00:37 Is Universalism Biblical or heretical?

• The main reason for the question

  • Many good Early Church quotes come from universalists

    • Commonly accepted in the church today as a pejorative

      • Even though universalism is rejected

2:50 Abby’s Religious Background

• Grew up typical protestant

  • Went to church on Sundays

    • But it never really meant anything

• Switched to Lutheran and Methodist

  • Moved a lot, so lots of different churches

• Church was a ritual she hated

  • Swore she’d never go as an adult

  • And never make her kids go

• Invited to Evangelical church in high school

  • No one dressed up

  • There were no hymnals

  • They played guitars

  • And it was more about relationship with God than ritual

  • About learning, studying, growing

    • But then in studying, came to stories like God commanding [Saul] to kill every man, woman, and child

      • Shocked that God would command him to kill babies

      • More and more stories like that that didn’t sit right built up

      • Didn’t align with who she knew God to be

      • “Study and ask questions, but not those kinds of questions.” - leaders Abby talked to at church

        • You’re just supposed to accept it and move on

• Listened to podcasts

  • Learned about church history

  • The rich diversity of beliefs

  • Christian universalism

    • What majority of early Christians believed

• Hell

  • “If you take the idea of Hell really seriously, you can never have peace.” - Abby

    • In relationships

      • Felt so guilty

      • Felt a responsibility to save all their souls

        • Hurry, in case they die today

  • “Jesus left paradise to come down and serve the suffering. And so how could He just let people suffer in Hell?” - Abby

  • “...people, I love, if they were in Hell, what would I do to get them out? How much more would God do that for them?” - Abby

7:23 Scott’s Religious Background

• Raised Pentecostcal

• Then Foursquare

• Hell was a big thing 

  • His churches were big on fire and brimstone

  • Got married

    • Then really came to God

    • Had to accept that his wife was headed to Hell

      • When she got saved, it was such a relief

  • Driving around with friends, sharing the love of Jesus

    • One said he wasn’t interested and asked what would happen

      • Well… you could kind of go to Hell

        • “That sounds like a threat”

      • Something in the air wasn’t right

  • Scared for his children’s souls

    • Especially when his oldest became a rebellious teen

    • You hope they get into the Word

      • Become that little worship leader you want them to be

  • Learned about annhilationism

    • Seemed more Scriptural

  • 1 Timothy 4:10

    • “...our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers.”

      • This changed everything

  • Started reading Keith Giles 

    • Amazon

    • Latest Bad Roman podcast episode

  • Currently listening to Graces Saves All by David Artman

    • Outlines why everything in the Bible points to universal salvation

  • Would sit in church and worry that those who didn’t go to the altar and repent would die, unsaved, in a car crash on the way home

  • Fear is not a great motivator for Scott;

    • Grace always is

  • And Jesus didn’t go around threatening people

    • He gave them grace

  • Grace doesn’t mean we do what we want

    • It motivates us to do better

  • Fear might motivate some people

    • But it’s not something Jesus ever used

• Inerrancy 

  • Puts more stock in Gospels than Epistles

    • Many believe the entire Bible is God’s Word

    • Jesus is the Word

    • The Gospels are about Jesus

      • Some were written by people who were with him every day

12:42 Ari’s Religious Background

• Grew up in black charismatic churches

  • Preached lots of hellfire

• N-64 trauma

  • He was in middle school

  • His Nintendo 64 his most important possession

  • His game stopped, so he tried blowing on the cartridge

    • Like 40 times

    • Didn’t work

  • Got so desperate he begged God to make it work

    • It still didn’t

  • So he told God, “I hate you”

  • A bit later, pastor preached on blaspheming the Holy Spirit

    • Said saying you hate God is a way to do that

    • So Ari’s sittin there thinking he can never be forgiven

      • Doesn’t matter what he’ll say or do now; his little mistake cost him everything

      • Cried every night begging God to forgive him

• His aunt died young

  • When he was about 6

  • He always wondered if she was in Heaven or Hell

  • She was in her wild 20’s phase

    • Pushed away from church

• In his 20’s, he became agnostic

• Slowly rebuilt his faith from the foundation up

  • Started studying Hell

    • The Fire That Consumes

      • Annhilist

    • Read 1 Cor 15:22

      • Started to wonder and research if everyone will be saved

        • Led to reading about the early church

  • Decided universalism is

    • Most moral

    • Logically consistent

18:38 Craig

• People should read what those from Jesus time - 500 years after understood

  • Polycarp was taught by John, who was taught by Jesus

• Questioned everything since birth

• Started understanding liberty, which led to anarchy

  • What if he was wrong about other things?

    • Even Biblical ideas?

• “If it’s not consistent, I’m done with it.” - Craig

  • How can there be 40,000 denominations?

    • Man did this

      • Maybe they should study the early church to see if they’re really right

        • Or maybe we just need to hold on to our current understandings more loosely

        • Be open to learning and changing

        • If God is infinite, maybe it does take that many denominations to show different parts of Him

        • “We're all on a journey trying to understand this the best that we can. And I'm never gonna be a hundred percent right.” - Abby

        • We’re gonna keep learning for all eternity

• Jesus was a questioner

  • People would get stumped because they came in to fight, not to understand

22:48ish The Western church is a lot like an empire

• Don’t question 

  • If you do, you’re out

• “Jesus was not killed by atheism and anarchy. He was brought down by law and order allied with religion – which is always a deadly mix. Beware those who claim to know the mind of God and are prepared to use force, if necessary, to make others conform. Beware those who cannot tell God’s will – from their own.” ~ Barbara Brown Taylor

• When the church came to power under Constantine

  • We served Caesar

  • Dictatorship

• The Western church is more like imperialism than Jesus

  • We’ve settled for Caesar too

  • Psychological similarities

    • With those who buck this idea of universalism

    • Addiction to power

    • COVID vaccine

      • “Do this, or else”

        • You can’t go shopping

        • You can’t go to Heaven

      • Question, and you’re just a conspiracy theorist

      • You’re not smart enough

        • Trust the experts

        • Belittling

    • Augustine

      • Someone asked him what God was doing before creation

        • “Creating Hell for people like you who ask stupid questions”

        • Smart question; had to be belittled to coerce everyone to stick with Augustine as the authority

    • Pastors Say 

      • “That’s just how it is”

      • “That’s what the Bible says, so it’s ok”

26:28 If Jesus said He’s going to save all people, why question whether He means everyone?

• Everyone asks, “What about Hitler?”

  • Just reaffirms idea that some people are more deserving of Heaven than others

    • But their theology says everyone is equally deserving of Hell

    • Everyone is also equally saveable

• If God intends to save everyone, He will

  • He has the power

  • He has the intention

• Romans 3:23

  • People use this verse passionately and frequently

    • But ignore “because of Adam, all die; but all are made alive in Christ.”

  • Proves where your focus is

    • The power of sin

    • Everyone is in sin vs all are alive

    • Lack of faith that God can deliver us all from it

• “People believe all sins can be forgiven except a misunderstanding.” - Abby

  • You can rape and murder

    • As long as you say sorry to Jesus

  • But you can’t be born Muslim or Hindu

    • And follow your religion for your whole life

• God is going to restore creation to its original intent

  • Except this little pocket called Hell

  • It doesn’t make sense for sin to be eternal

  • It doesn’t make sense to restore creation to perfection

    • But have most people – His children – be out of reach

    • “Why would he restore the entire universe except not allow people who didn't have the correct understanding while they were on earth to come into a right relationship with him?” - Abby

  • If God is infinitely merciful, why would He not save everyone?

  • We each have infinite chances

    • With sufficient knowledge of God, of course everyone will turn

33:53 Death is not finite

“Who says God can't still work on your heart after you've left this earth?” - Abby

• Jesus conquered death

  • Yet most people still believe death is final

    • That there’s no coming back from there; it’s your last chance

    • And once you cross that threshold, you’re out of God’s reach

34:41 Free will

• People hold to 

  • Love doesn’t force you to do anything

    • That’s why there has to be a Hell

      • Because we need freedom to choose one or the other

• But God isn’t forcing people to accept Him after death

  • He is simply providing more information

  • Removing the bondage of sin

  • And taking off layers of blinders

  • If it takes someone 3,000 years to choose Him, that’s their choice

    • Though, we’ll be living outside time

  • But everyone will accept Him in the end

36:18 More on death

• Death is a part of life

• It doesn’t last forever

• People attempting suicide (successful and not)

  • Seen Christ in each of them

  • Lost for a time, but not forever

• Death, where is your victory?

• “I'm not gonna feel the pain of this forever. I'm gonna be reunited with the people that I love, regardless of if they had it all figured out here or not.” - Scott ?

37:31 Scriptures for the skeptics

• Eternal damnation doesn’t make any sense, when you read Jesus’ words

• Burning Up song

  • Everyone will be salted with fire

  • Mark 9:49

  • Salt/Gehenna context

• If non-believers get time to come to Jesus after they die, do Christians get time to learn more and improve too?

  • Cuz we’ve all got stuff to work on

  • What happens when Christians die?

    • What if they screwed up right before they died?

• Where do souls go after death before the new Earth?

  • Perhaps we should leave it a mystery

  • Some people have died and been revived

    • Listen to them

  • But the Bible doesn’t explain the process

    • Refining fire

    • Absent from the body; present with the Lord (2 Cor 5:8)

      • But I’m present with Him now 

        • He is omnipresent

    • Matter is eternal

      • It’s just been reshaped over and over again

      • Energy never dies

      • Changes form

      • It would make sense that a similar pattern is happening beyond this earth

    • “Jesus loves us regardless. Don't tell a Christian that because it's gonna upset him.” - unknown

      • There’s no hellfire in that message

• Show me where Jesus says if you make a misstep, you’re gonna burn in Hell for eternity

  • He didn’t try to scare people into loving Him

• Hebrews 1:3

  • If Christ is a reflection of the Father

    • What about Old Testament slaughterings?

  • Stop focusing on words from the Bible

    • Putting the Bible over Christ is idolatry

  • “I don't need to read the Bible. I need to read who Christ is.” - Scott

  • Words are all we have to describe God

    • If we succeed, He is too small

    • He sent His son to show us

• Jesus

  • Not politician

  • Not a renowned carpenter or mason

  • He was a nobody

    • Calling Him the Son of God was an insult to Caesar

      • That was Caesar’s title

    • It was given to a Jewish rabbi who was not popular among His own people

      • He was seen as a heretic

      • They wanted to throw Him off a cliff

        • Luke 4:23-30

        • He spoke against their nationalism idol

      • The Kingdom of Heaven is for all people

        • Not just Israel

      • When you’re oppressed, you want your oppressor to be annihilated

      • But God loves Rome

      • Just as much as Israel

        • Fightin words

      • What if we said God loves the Taliban and wants the war to end?

      • The Jews believed that they were the chosen people, and the Messiah was coming just for them

        • Jesus said everyone was equal in the Kingdom

        • The Message is for the entire world

48:40 Christianity’s power

• Not a minority

• Not oppressed

• Still want to be tribalistic and put others out

  • Want our enemies to suffer in Hell

• The people with the true problem are often supposedly believers

  • Sheep and goats

49:45 Post-death purification

• We want to think, “This life is hard. As soon as I die, I’ll go to Heaven and be happy.”

• But we must be salted with fire

  • Scary thought

  • But God is good and loving

    • It will be beneficial

    • It’s all for our restoration and healing

  • It’s a mystery

    • But we know who God is

    • We don’t have to be scared of it

      • Even if it’s hard

  • He is Love

51:46 Quoting Scripture

• “I really do believe that Paul believed that there would be some who would be eternally annihilated, but I also believe that Paul obviously believed that ultimately, everybody would be saved.” - Ari

• The problem is, you show someone one verse

  • They show you another that proves the opposite point

  • The Bible is inconsistent

• Paul said meat sacrificed to idols was ok

  • John said no

• John said you need Jesus and the Law

  • Paul said no Law

• The Bible gives inconsistent eschatology

  • It points to different authors’ beliefs

    • Not necessarily what Jesus said

• Paul vacillated between some being annihilated and all being saved

  • How can you argue when both views are in the Bible?

• There’s obviously human error

  • So we just have to take it and decide what’s most moral and logical

• People will say Scripture cannot really mean one thing because it says the opposite somewhere else

  • Cannot try to reconcile them

  • Just accept that it’s different viewpoints

  • Focus on the main points

• If you find something immoral or inconsistent, reject it

  • God commanding slaughter in the Old Testament

    • Not moral

    • Jesus didn’t do that

• Paul believed like a good Jew that some would be annihilated

  • But then he wrestled with the truth

    • God is gonna save all people

    • Had a revelation

  • A lot of Jews struggled to accept Jesus because they didn’t expect the Messiah to die and resurrect like Christ did

    • Why is it hard to accept that Paul may have changed what he understood to be true?

• Other contradiction

  • Jacob I loved; Esau I hated

  • Vs God shows no partiality

• In Romans, Paul is arguing one side of a case

  • And then the other side

  • He’s of split mind trying to make peace

1:00:22 Repent

• That word is preached to mean turn 180° from your sin

• But it means rethink; change

• Paul started with black and white; good and evil 

  • Christ calls us to think outside that paradigm

• Could say that this is Hell and we are currently being purified

  • And once we get to be with Christ, it’ll be done

  • But Jesus says His Kingdom is here

  • We can see His glory here, in this life

1:01:54 Jesus is a peacemaker

• Parables of lost things

• Lost, found, party

• Sons

  • One squandered his wealth

  • The other stayed home, but never really knew his father

  • The father makes peace with each of them

    • We can’t cast aside our pious brothers with different convictions

    • They can’t hate those of us who have strayed

  • His love never changes for either one

  • The Prodigal God by Tim Keller

• “I need to love these people who are telling me I’m going to Hell.” - Scott

• In Scripture, when Jesus gets mad at Pharisees

  • Maybe He’s full of compassion

  • The word we translate “Fool” or “Hypocrite” could mean “Actor”

    • Human authority isn’t real

      • It’s just actors dressed up in costumes and playing a part

• We are all children of God

  • Creation is longing for us to realize we’re sons and daughters of the Most High

    • Romans 8:19

    • No need to fight

1:04:41 Is the Bible meaningless, then?

• No

• It has deep meaning

• The above explanation of the prodigal son revealed new insights

  • Every time Abby hears that story, she learns something new

• That’s why it has survived empires and centuries

  • It’s not just a how-to guide on getting on God’s good or bad side

  • The stories 

    • Tell us about ourselves as humans

    • Give us something to think about

    • Let us contemplate our relationship with God

• Everyone is searching and discovering

  • Coming to different conclusions

    • Let’s embrace everyone’s journey as equals

• “Loving God with all of your mind is to relentlessly keep questioning and keep trying to figure it out and not be stuck in a spot where you're unwilling to change your mind.” - Craig

• The human capacity to get things wrong is endless

  • People imagine God guiding the authors’ pens as they wrote Scripture

  • Reality is, people were involved

    • People mess up

1:07:54 Biblical cases against universalism

• Conditional immortality

  • Dare We Hope?

    • There are contradictions in Scripture about eschatology

    • Hold these tensions as humbly as we can

      • And not presume that everyone will or won’t be saved

  • Best argument against it

    • That All Shall Be Saved

      • Best argument against Hell

      • If God permits some to be eternally lost, then He is evil

        • Even if He permits them to damn themselves

        • He cannot possibly be purely loving and just

      • Humans do not exist in a vacuum

        • We’re shaped by those around us

        • If one damns itself, others around it might make different choices and end up damned

        • Could lead to the collapse of humanity

          • In the same way, everybody must be saved for anybody to be

  • Libertarian freedom is stupid

  • If God would give us sufficient evidence to see that He is everything we need, everyone would choose Him

    • Annihilationism fails

      • Even though it’s in Scripture

• The Bible is clear on Hell

  • Contradictions

  • More clearly supports universalism

    • Starting with Abraham being a blessing to all nations (Gen 22:18)

• Allegory and truths

  • God is love

    • Read this into other Scriptures

  • Definition of eternal life

    • John 17:3

    • Knowing God

      • Depart from Me; I never knew you

        • You didn’t know My true character

      • Even Paul sometimes did something with the wrong mindset

        • Big trouble for casting out a demon out of annoyance

  • We are loved regardless of our good works

  • Doing good for the sake of doing good

  • Heaven and Hell is often about

    • A reward

    • Avoidance of a punishment

      • Fear-based

      • God did not give us a spirit of fear

    • We should be following God for the benefit of our neighbors as well as ourselves

  • Harmony is loving ourselves and others equally

• What’s the point of Jesus dying on the cross if everyone gets in?

  • The Gospel isn’t our ticket into Heaven

    • It’s that the Kingdom is here

• God is love, but He is also just

  • What is justice?

    • People think of it as prison and death

    • God’s justice is restorative

    • Healing what is lost

      • Bringing us into a right relationship with Him

    • “Justice isn't somebody stealing something and getting their hand cut off; justice is that item being returned.” - Abby

    • When Hitler is restored, he will love those he harmed

      • And they’ll be restored to be able to love him also

  • Restoration doesn’t seem possible based on our experiences

    • But God is moving

• Live your values until people start asking questions

---

Related Episodes

Related Blog Post

62. Love and Substance Abuse - Hope for the Addict with Reckless Saints of Nowhere's Jordan Blake

About this episode

Jordan Blake is the Executive Director and co-founder of The Reckless Saints of Nowhere. He finished his own rehab journey in 2015 and started Reckless Saints with his wife shortly after. They lead a team that destroys barriers for those ready to go through treatment for substance addiction. They go against the status quo to show the love of Jesus to those most of the world finds repugnant. And it works.

No matter who you are, you know someone struggling with addiction — even if you don’t know it. This touches everyone. If it’s not you, it’s your sibling, cousin, teacher, friend, coworker… it's a deadly problem. It needs to be talked about. Shame only keeps people from getting the help they need. Those dealing with it need and deserve our love. If you or someone you know is ready to accept help, go to recklesssaintsofnowhere.com or call (918) 864-2719 to start the process.

Episode Timestamps:

1:35 TJ, Craig’s baby brother

• 36 when he passed

• Had a problem with alcohol

• Died September 2020, after 6 months of lockdown

  • In December, their mom was wishing they’d known about The Reckless Saints of Nowhere before he passed

2:29 Get people to pay attention

• Most people don’t notice problems are happening until it’s affecting them personally

3:20 Jordan’s story

• Not addicted in an expected way for his community

  • Which was meth

• He had a serious accident and major pain at 12-13 years old

  • Perhaps the first Oklahoman to be prescribed Oxycontin

    • Purdue pharma bribed the FDA to say it was non-addictive

      • Looked like the savior for people’s pain

  • His kidney was producing 100+ stones/year

    • One x-ray showed over 40

    • They didn’t want to remove it and stress the other kidney

  • Left the hospital with higher and higher doses of oxy

  • 19 surgeries before 20 years old

    • Including metal insertions

    • All removable organs removed

  • The hospital didn’t want to give a kid morphine

  • Outside the hospital, he wound up on morphine, fentanyl…

    • On the needle

    • Hit a US Marshall in the face with a beer bottle during a bar fight

    • Getting arrested every weekend

    • … all because he was trying to treat his immense pain

  • Forced into treatment at 20

    • By a merciful judge

      • Let him out of 8 years in federal prison if he’d go

    • Went to Teen Challenge and Cape Girardeau in Missouri for 15 months

• At the beginning of Reckless

  • Came out of rehab with no desire to help anyone

    • Wanted to just be left alone and work in a factory

    • Couldn’t even go on vacation because of the number of drugs he had to take to manage his pain

  • His veins were collapsing from too much drug use

  • But everyone in town knew he was a dirtbag and noticed when he went sober

    • People started asking him for help getting sober

      • Told him they were scared of dying but didn’t know what to do to prevent it

      • Crying in the grocery store

        • (a public space with lots of people around! A nightmare for an autistic person)

        • He panicked about that one and tried to talk the guy out of asking him for help

        • He told the dude he didn’t want to do it the popular way because there was only a 4% success rate

        • He said he’d do whatever Jordan told him to

        • The guy detoxed at Jordan’s house and they headed to Teen Challenge in the morning

      • But they wouldn’t let him in without $800-1000 entry fee

      • “I couldn’t get them to understand: If he had $8, it would be up his arm. He doesn’t have $800.” - Jordan

      • When someone who’s addicted says they want treatment, you gotta jump on that moment

      • Not make them come up with almost $1,000 first

      • So Jordan paid for 5 or 6 guys to get in before he ran out of money

      • He gave out his phone number and got like 200 calls for help within a month

      • Going into drug dens trying to talk people into recovery

        • Led to a broken nose

        • Knives pulled on him

        • But also guys choosing treatment

      • So, Reckless started as a treatment financing program

        • But he started dating Vanessa, and she helped him make a nonprofit so volunteers could do some of the work

          • Instead of him working 50 hr/wk and running around the country in between shifts

          • 3 months later, they were married

  • Goal of Reckless: overcome obstacles to treatment

    • Entry fee

    • Transportation

      • Might single-handedly be keeping Greyhound in business

    • Finding a bed

      • Waitlists

      • Vanessa made a network so different organizations can put their availability

    • Support

      • Started a hotline

  • Place about 5-6 people per day in treatment

    • Over 7,000 total

    • Never had to turn anyone away 

13:18 Funds

• Several churches giving $100/month

  • But entry fees are $1,000 per person

  • Drugs are a huge problem in the US

    • Could easily blow through a billion and make a small dent

• Apparel company in the basement

  • Brings in $300-500,000/year

    • All goes to getting people into treatment

• Parents take out 2nd or 3rd mortgages to get their kids into $30,000 programs

15:17 Reckless rehab

• Gathered strategies from different programs that work

• 90% success rate

• Now looked to as industry leader

  • But made a lot of mistakes

  • Fought a lot of battles

  • The first person trying something always faces the most adversity

16:41 Who can help an addict?

• Did TJ not listen to his family because they had never been addicted?

• Addicts know they have a problem

  • But they have to reach a moment of clarity

• You don’t have to experience someone’s pain to acknowledge and help with it

  • But someone who has been addicted can call bullshit and wake a person up

  • The loved ones’ pain is just as real, and can only be felt by them

    • The addict and their family may never understand each other

      • But they can still love each other

20:47 Grim Reaper

• The police department gave Jordan this nickname

  • They arrest someone for drugs

    • Don’t book em right away

      • They either agree to go with Jordan

        • And likely get better

      • Or the cops find them dead within the week

• People don’t call Reckless till they’ve run out of options / hit bottom

  • Only maybe 10-20% of people they try to help accept it

  • That means 8 or 9 / 10 people die or get worse

    • Reckless staff stopped going to all those funerals 

      • It had become all they did

  • He can honestly tell people, “This is the last conversation I’ll get with you. You’re either gonna die or you’re gonna come with me.”

    • The only way he can sleep at night is to tell it to them straight

      • Some have assaulted him for it, but it’s their only chance, so he keeps doing it

        • The truth hurts

24:14 Families of the addicted

• “In the case of your brother, there’s nothing you did wrong. There’s nothing you should have done.” - Jordan

• People don’t want to think their loved one needs help

  • Even after telling a dad that heroin addicts fail 97% of the time to recover on their own

    • The dad said, “Maybe my son will be in the 3%”

    • And got the son a hotel room to stay in

      • Where he died of an overdose

        • “Failure means death.” - Jordan

        • The father was distraught and blaming himself

        • Jordan told him, “Your son died because of your son. And that had nothing to do with you. That was a conscious decision made by him that resulted in his death.”

26:34 Emotions of the addicted

• Huge highs and very low lows

  • On the verge of swinging from the smallest trigger

• Guilt and shame

  • Even when families give love unconditionally, addicts hide

    • TJ chose not to share what he was doing with Craig

      • Even though the love would not have changed

28:09 Vulnerability in sharing personal stories

• “I promise anybody that's listening to this, you know somebody in your life, whether it's a friend or family member, that is struggling with this.” - Craig

• Feel exposed

• Extra nerve-wracking to have been an IV drug user

  • People think you’re gross

    • Categorize you with sex offenders

  • Despised and rejected

  • Jordan thought no one would want to hear from him

    • But the more honest he was, the more people came asking for help

• “There's not a lot of ‘real’ being offered out there right now. And people recognize it. They jump all over it.” - Jordan

• Random advice tidbit: “If you're gonna be successful, surround yourself with people that are never impressed by you. That’s my secret.” - Jordan

  • Abby tells Craig when he’s being stupid

  • Jordan’s wife is not blown away when he designs a new shirt or makes money

  • Just don’t beat men down or they’ll fail then too

32:38 Bringing it back to Christ

• The same way Jordan calls addicts out on their crap, the Bad Roman calls out Christians

  • Been there

  • Understand where they’re coming from

• Jesus healed

  • Offered people a way out

  • Eradicated shame and guilt

  • Offers hope

  • Reckless Saints of Nowhere is doing God’s work!

• Nobody talks about this issue

  • That’s why it’s so important

  • There’s so many voices 

    • So much misinformation

    • So many people trying to make money by offering “recovery”

  • There’s no accountability

  • They can legally 

    • Bring in people who’ve been arrested

    • Get them a job

      • Give them a raise

    • Take the paycheck for a year

    • Let them keep the job at the lower wage

  • Often label themselves as Christian

  • Reckless doesn’t attack them

    • Simply keeps living better

      • Saving money for their clients instead of stealing

    • The cheaters hate them

    • Same as Bad Roman

      • “What you guys do, trying to draw a line between patriotism and evangelicalism in America, is a suicide mission.” - Jordan

      • People have always come to God asking him to support their agenda

      • He flies no man’s flag

      • In 2016, Jordan said it was scary that neither candidate even pretended to fear God

      • Everyone freaked

  • Said he hated Trump

  • And loved Hilary

  • He’s a registered republican

  • “In the American Christianity Bible belt, you don’t fight good vs evil.” - Jordan

  • He told his coworker he understood why women were hesitant to vote for Trump

    • Lover of Hilary!!

  • And all of ^ that ^ is exactly what spurred the start of The Bad Roman Project

    • Christians backing Trump no matter what he said or did

    • “If either one of them feared God, they wouldn't be running to rule over somebody else.” - Craig

40:50 Operating closely with the state without joining them

• It’s necessary if you want to exist and be able to help people 

• Health and Human Services 501c3

• Non-religious organization

  • Being religious cuts off access to people in jail

    • Separation of church and state

      • Can’t court order someone to go to a church-based program

• Run on Gospel principles

• Every client has gone through faith-based program

  • Statistically more successful

    • Can’t argue with that

• Preach everywhere

• Take no money from the state

  • Salvation Army and Red Cross got in trouble doing this

  • The state’s money is so easy to get, most churches do it

    • Grants

    • They wonder why the Gospel is compromised

      • It has to be or they’ll cut off your funding

  • Insidious funds infiltrate and change your organization

• Work with system to get people out of the system

• The IRS pushed back

  • But Reckless is 90% successful

    • Why would they close them?

  • Got to keep their health organization status

    • Keep working in the jails and mental hospitals

      • It’s the sick who need a doctor

  • Ruled that they could keep it, but were cut off from state funding

    • How could they do that to us?

      • Oh, wait. We don’t have any state funding

      • And never will

    • Reckless won, but the government wrote the letter like they lost

44:55 “Christian” logos

• “If you want to honor God with your work, don't put a cross on every pair of shoes you make. Just make a really good pair of shoes.” - Martin Luther, paraphrased

• Jesus Fish

  • A guy asked for a logo design with the fish

    • Jordan asked him why

      • So everyone who sees their sign knows they’re Christian

      • How about treat them with dignity and see if they figure it out?

• “It's an appearance of Christianity, but it's not Christianity.” - Jordan

• “You drive around in Oklahoma, [and] there's a hundred churches in every square block. And yet the city's burning to the ground around it in addiction. These two things can't coexist. If Christ is present, there is freedom.” - Jordan

• Marketing a business as Christian is exclusionary

  • It doesn’t attract non-Christian customers

  • It tells people to stay away if they don’t share your beliefs

• “It's gotta be about Christ and it's gotta be about helping people or what benefit are we getting from it?” - Jordan

48:11 Rebellious?

• “Live a life that gets people asking you questions of why you're living that way.” - Craig

• It used to be that being a Christian meant anarchy was implied

• Acting outside the norm

  • Dragging addicts out of drug dens rather than waiting for them to come

  • Have tattoos

• Not rebels

  • True Christians live a life of submission

• Modern day rebellion

  • “Be a rebel again. Turn off your TV, get married, stay married, start a family. Be present for that family. Think for yourself, teach your kids to think for themselves, buy land, and love your neighbors. Even the ones you disagree with.” - Tim Kennedy

  • It’s now considered rebellion to live basic Christian values

  • The Baptists don’t approve

    • “The gospels [are] not the thing that unites them. They’re not even talked about.” - Jordan

    • If you fall in love with Christ rather than their system of rules and strict beliefs, you will be ostracized

• Attending church

  • Craig doesn’t because he was judging everyone

    • He knew they wouldn’t like the Bad Roman

    • He didn’t want to be that person

    • So, the Bad Roman Discussion Group has Zoom church

  • It’s about community

  • Jordan attends all kinds

    • Mennonite, different Baptist flavors..

    • Also prone to judging

    • Chooses to walk in with Jesus, ready to love His people

    • Extra judgy when churches present their budget

      • Reckless minimizes overhead to reach more people

        • Churches seem to do the opposite

        • “Let’s hire more people”

        • Like 90 pastors on staff, each with a different specialty

      • Craig was at a broken church

        • The denomination brought in someone to heal it

        • He said they had to raise more money

        • A pastor would never stay on that salary

        • Craig never returned or gave money to a church again

59:22 Reformers by nature

• God has given the Bad Roman and Reckless a job

• Not afraid to walk against the status quo

• Martin Luther’s qualms

  • Clergy

  • Budget not going to care for the needy

• America

  • We’ve lost the hurt and needy

    • Church used to take care of them

    • God ordained us to care for orphans and widows

      • James 1:27

      • It wasn’t a suggestion!

      • We gave that job to the state because we didn’t want to do it

  • BUT it is not our job to fix the messed up church

    • That is God’s bride

      • He’s the only one big enough to fix it

    • We can call her out

      • Jordan called out Teen Challenge for partnering with the state

        • They got mad because he’s one of their success stories

        • And therefore cannot speak against them because he is doing well

        • But who else can speak to what they do, if not a graduate?

    • Cannot reform the church from the outside

      • We want to get back to the teachings of Christ

        • That is reformation.

      • Churches are panicking because people are leaving

      • But we’re just rethinking what church really is

        • What does following Jesus look like?

        • Must leave the culture of control and divisiveness to find Him

        • “People are no longer satisfied with an agenda with biased information.” - Jordan

1:03:15 Authenticity

• That’s what’s missing from American society

• We weren’t always afraid of failure

  • The church won’t move because they’re scared of the blowback if they fail

  • People wanting to start ministries have to be counseled

    • When you fail, are you prepared for everyone to see you look stupid?

• The church is now an institution

  • Which is never good

  • Fears information

  • Fears failure

  • All about power and control

1:04:15 Motivation

• Love

  • “I’m telling you the truth because I love you.” - Craig

• It’s not because we love to fight people about this stuff

  • We’re still open to listen

• Love has to be evident in your life

  • So when you speak the truth, it is backed by love

  • It’s not just about your delivery of the words

  • It’s that your lifestyle proves you care

  • When we know someone loves us, they can speak truths

1:06:13 The Reckless Saints of Nowhere name

• Jordan is from Boatman, OK

• The government decided they weren’t big enough

  • Took their township

  • No more post office

  • No more zip code

• Now, the kids go to school in one town and the police come from another 

• People started calling it ‘nowhere’

  • Also dog town

    • People abandoned their dogs there

• Rough, sketchy trailer park area

• Moved back there after rehab

  • Brand new Christian

  • Made all sorts of mistakes

  • But God had his heart fully

  • Spurgeon has a quote 

    • The moment you submit to Christ, you are as much a saint as Peter

  • Churches didn’t like it

    • Didn’t want a tattooed dude who cussed a lot and hung out with drug addicts to claim the same God/religion as their pompous selves

    • He wasn’t even trying to appear perfect

• A bit reckless

  • They do stuff proper people never would

  • They have not yet been made perfect

• Just as much saints as the well-behaved

• And grew up in a non-town known as nowhere

• Actually, an old lady called them that as an insult, and it stuck

• Being ostracized by the churches there forced them to lean hard into Jesus

  • Wouldn’t trade the faith they developed from that

1:09:52 Moved from Nowhere

• Jordan was planning to stay there till he died

  • A deep love for that community

• Snake Invasion

  • One in the back fridge

  • One dropped from a tree by his son

• Accident

  • Pothole

    • Blew bearings out on a motorcycle

      • Popped tire

    • Scraped up his face

      • Road rash

• “I love this town, but it does not love me back”

• Still visit and work their all the time

1:10:55 T-shirts

• All designed by Jordan

  • Except one

• Timmy (the shirt Craig wore for the show) is no longer available

• Jordan was always promising people he’d pay their fees

  • Saying the check is in the mail

  • One time, he promised $10,000 worth

    • And there was not a penny in the bank

    • But God provided

      • Nothing was late

  • Shirts were a way to have funds more regularly

• They’ve grown to have a professional shop in town

  • Run by a friend

    • Addicts help with printing process

• “Every single person that buys. A reckless shirt or donates online – they're as much a part of Reckless as my own beating heart.” - Jordan

  • The money paid for a shirt is directly connected to saving a life

1:14:08

• Reckless works in nearly every state

• “If you're a drug addict in the United States of America, it's either because you want to be, or you've never heard of the reckless saints.” - Jordan

• Chose t-shirts because people actually pay to advertise for you by wearing it

• The team does every part of the process

  • So, if you’re shirt comes a bit late, they’re probably working with a lot of people or traveling a lot

    • It’s a rescue team that happens to also print shirts

• Craig likes to wear his shirt to the gym

• CrossFit donated to Reckless

  • So some of the guys could participate

1:20:14ish Get help

• Get Help Button

• Hotline: 918-864-2719

  • No answer? 

    • Leave a detailed voicemail

• Website

• “We may not be undefeated, but we have never lost a rematch.” - Jordan

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