155. The State of the Holy Union: Is the President Barabbas? with Paul Lazzaroni

Sometimes we say we follow Jesus… but we still want a “strong guy” to save us. We want someone who will fight, punish our enemies, and “fix the country.” But what if that hope is closer to Barabbas than to Jesus?

In this episode, Craig talks with Paul Lazzaroni (Cross and Cornerstone / No King but Christ Network) about a big idea from Paul’s article, “Is Trump Barabbas?” The point isn’t mainly about one politician. It’s about a mindset. The crowd picked Barabbas. Someone tied to violence and revolt instead of Jesus. And if we’re honest, we can still want that kind of “savior” today. So we ask: Are we being shaped by the Kingdom of God… or by the kingdoms of this world?

The Barabbas Temptation

Barabbas wasn’t just “some other guy.” He stood for a certain kind of rescue: power, force, control. The kind of rescue that feels fast and strong.

Paul and Craig talk about how easy it is for Christians to drift into that way of thinking. We may not say, “Give us Barabbas,” out loud. But we can say it with our cravings. Craving a leader who will “win” for us, crush the “bad guys,” and make our fears go away.

Jesus doesn’t offer that kind of victory. He offers a cross. And that’s the problem… and the invitation.

When Politics Becomes Discipleship

Paul shares that he doesn’t vote and tries not to live inside political arguments. Not because he doesn’t care, but because he doesn’t want politics to become what shapes him. Craig comes at it from another angle: he’s loud about this stuff because he’s watching Christians tie their faith to state power, and it keeps hurting people.

Here’s one of the main questions underneath the whole episode:

If Jesus teaches enemy-love, mercy, and humility… why do Christians so often chase power, punishment, and control?

And another question:

When we say “we’re protecting our country,” are we protecting our neighbors, or protecting our own comfort?

God’s Slow Work: From Slavery Thinking to Freedom Living

Craig asks Paul to lay down some Bible groundwork, especially around Israel leaving Egypt and being formed in the wilderness. Paul’s point is simple: people who lived under slavery don’t suddenly know how to live free. They have to be healed. Re-trained. Re-shaped.

That changes how we think about Scripture and law. Instead of reading the Old Testament like “God’s dream is control,” Paul points toward a story of God patiently forming a people who learn justice, care for the vulnerable, and a different way to live together.

That matters today because Christian nationalism often sounds like Egypt thinking with Bible words:

 “Force people to be good.”
“Control society.”
“Win at all costs.”

But God’s way is slower, and it looks a lot more like Jesus.

Modern Babylon: A Place or a Pattern?

The Bible uses “Babylon” as a picture of empire: a system that trains people to trust power, money, fear, and violence.

Craig and Paul ask whether America slips into acting like “a modern Babylon.” Not as a simple insult, but as a warning. Because Babylon isn’t only “out there.” It can be in us. It can shape what we think “safety” means. It can shape what we think “good” means. It can even shape what we think “Christian” means.

So we’re left with a hard but honest question: Are we trying to build God’s Kingdom… or are we helping Babylon feel holy?

The Kind of King We Keep Asking For

One of the hardest parts of this conversation is realizing this: we don’t only want safety. We often want control. We want a king who will make the world feel simple again: good guys vs. bad guys, winners vs. losers.

But Jesus keeps refusing to be that kind of king. He doesn’t grab power. He doesn’t build His kingdom with threats. He doesn’t save the world by hurting the “right people.” That’s why Barabbas is such a strong picture. Barabbas is the kind of “rescuer” the crowd understands.

 Jesus is the kind they don’t.

So the question is not just, “Who do we vote for?” It’s, “What kind of king do we secretly want?”

Good News Has A Target

Craig and Paul circle back to a simple test that cuts through a lot of noise: Is it good news for the poor? For the oppressed? For the outsider?

Jesus’ mission isn’t vague. He doesn’t just say “be nice.” He announces freedom, healing, mercy, and justice. That kind of good news has real faces: the hungry, the prisoner, the immigrant, the exploited, the outcast. If our “Christian” politics mainly protects the comfortable and punishes the vulnerable, something is backwards.

This is where Christian nationalism gets exposed. It often sounds like “God and country,” but it doesn’t always sound like Jesus.

No King But Christ Means We Live Different

If we say “Jesus is Lord,” that can’t just be a slogan. It has to show up in how we treat people, how we talk about enemies, and what we’re willing to do without the government’s help.

“No King but Christ” doesn’t mean we stop caring about the world. It means we stop believing power is the savior. It means we stop acting like fear gets the final word. And it means we practice the Kingdom right now, small, real, local, and brave.

Not with a flag. Not with threats. Not with “winning.” But with the kind of love Jesus actually taught.

Highlights & Takeaways

• The “Barabbas mindset” is wanting a savior who uses power and force instead of the way of Jesus.

• This isn’t just about one politician—it’s about what we crave when we’re afraid.

• If politics is shaping our hearts more than Jesus is, something is off.

• God’s story in Scripture is often slow formation, not quick domination.

• “Babylon” is an empire pattern—fear, control, and violence dressed up as “order.”

• A good test: Is what we’re supporting good news for the poor, the oppressed, and the outsider? If not, it probably isn’t Jesus’ way.

• Following Jesus means we don’t need a flag to tell us who we are.

🤝 Connect with Paul Lazzaroni 🤝

• Cross and Cornerstone (Website / Blog + Articles)

• C&C Facebook Page

• No King but Christ Network (Paul’s work is featured there): nokingbutchristnetwork.com

• Paul’s Personal Pages

• Instagram

• Facebook

• YouTube

• TikTok

Listen & Reflect

Listen: Pay attention to the moments where you feel the pull toward “we need a strong leader.” What emotion is underneath that: fear, anger, exhaustion?

Reflect: Where have we accepted the idea that “the state will love our neighbor for us”? What would it look like to take that responsibility back?

Read: Re-read Luke 23 (Jesus and Barabbas). Then read Matthew 5 (especially enemy-love). Ask: Which way looks more like my life right now?

Practice: Do one small, real act of love that doesn’t depend on elections: help someone, forgive someone, feed someone, show up for someone. Let Jesus shape your reflexes.

Episode Timestamps:

(0:00) Jesus or Caesar?

• state power / coercion

• violence vs cross-shaped love

• allegiance, obedience, faithful resistance

(0:45) Meet Paul Lazzaroni

• No King but Christ Network

• Paul’s background + why he’s here

• Cross and Cornerstone connection

(1:27) “Is Trump Barabbas?”

• title as provocation

• not about one person

• Barabbas as symbol / warning

(2:20) The Barabbas Mindset

• strongman savior instinct

• fear → anger → control

• “revolt for us” vs “take up your cross”

(8:36) Why Paul Doesn’t Vote

• informed vs formed

• political identity vs Kingdom identity

• stepping back from the outrage machine

(17:57) Wilderness First

• Exodus / slavery mindset

• formation before “law”

• Leviticus groundwork, God re-shaping a people

(47:30) Modern Babylon

• Babylon as system / pattern

• empire imagination

• fear, control, violence dressed up as “order”

(47:57) Mindsets and Mimic Kingdoms

• tribal belonging / “our team”

• empire logic: power promises salvation

• winning vs faithfulness, control vs Spirit

(53:33) What Is Cross and Cornerstone?

• website + blog/articles hub 

• learning-in-public: what Paul’s studying + wrestling through

• resources for folks not finding this in church

(55:32) Why “Cornerstone”?

• rejected stone / Jesus as foundation

• Paul’s story: rejecting, returning, grace

• identity built on Christ, not empire

(57:16) Writing, Learning, Humility

• learning through writing

• “journey of humility”

• Scripture forming us (not agendas)

Sit with Discomfort

If this episode made you uncomfortable, you’re not alone. That might be the Spirit pulling us away from the crowd, and back toward Jesus. 

---

Related Episodes

Related Blog Post

105. Translating the Bible – Is the Greek Right? with Duncan Palmer

About this Episode

Have you ever considered how the subtle nuances of ancient Greek can reshape our understanding of biblical scriptures? Well get ready, because in this episode Craig welcomes back Duncan Kerry Palmer to dissect his thought-provoking article, "Political Power and the Connotation Conspiracy." The conversation delves into the complex relationship between Christianity and state authority, with a particular emphasis on the impact of ancient Greek language on biblical scripture interpretation.

The podcast reveals how the translation of words such as 'exousia' and 'hupotaso' from Greek to English can drastically change meanings from 'authority' to 'power' and 'obey' to 'align with.' These linguistic transformations shed new light on well-known scriptures like Romans 13 and Acts 5:29, prompting a reevaluation of Christian perspectives on government, law enforcement, and societal roles.

Palmer provides anecdotes from his biweekly theological debates, adding depth to the discussion on how these subtle linguistic changes can impact Christian views on governance and societal roles. The dialogue is as rich as the cigars enjoyed during those fraternal exchanges, emphasizing the importance of humility and the acknowledgment that our understanding of absolute truth may be more fragile than we'd like to admit.

Listeners are challenged to critically examine scripture and question long-held beliefs, embracing the journey towards a deeper understanding of God's word. The episode concludes with an exploration of the controversial issue of translation conspiracies and their impact on Christian doctrines, particularly in relation to the alleged divine sanctioning of governmental authority. As they grapple with convenient passages like "render unto Caesar," the hosts encourage believers to reconsider what they've been taught. This episode is not only informative but also encourages transformative engagement with faith and politics. Tune in and be prepared to have your perspectives challenged and potentially reshaped.

Connect with Duncan Cary Palmer:

• Social Community: Peakd.com 

• Blog: Hive Blog

• Duncan’s email: creator@sidefire.com

Episode Timestamps:

Timestamps:

01:02 Christian-State Relationships

• Duncan Kerry Palmer's article "Political Power and the Connotation Conspiracy"

• Impact of translation on scripture interpretation, conspiracy possibility in translations.

• Updates on biweekly theological discussions.

• Engaging in debates, acknowledging limited understanding.

02:04 Scripture Through Translation

• Understanding scripture beyond face value translations.

• Potential for translation errors to influence interpretations.

05:02 Modern-Day Pharisees and Wisdom

• Concept of modern-day Pharisees, wisdom with age.

• Humility continued learning in understanding scripture.

07:07 Connotation in Translation

• Challenges faced by translators, subtle meaning shifts.

• Translation leads to misconceptions about divinely sanctioned powers.

• Importance of critical analysis of biblical language.

15:30 Greek Words in Scripture

• Biblical Greek nuances, influence on scriptural concepts of authority and submission.

• Significance of consistent word usage for understanding.

• Mistranslations of "exousia" and "hupotaso", importance of context.

28:43 Biblical Terminology

• Directive to "make disciples of all nations", misinterpretation related to converting governments.

• Personal anecdote about a speeding ticket, reaction to authoritative language.

• Difference between persuasion and command in leadership.

42:56 God's Government Through His Assembly

• Concept of governance, spiritual authority from a Christian perspective.

• Biases in translation and interpretation, the word "Ecclesia."

• Scripture implications for Jesus' role as a ruler, governance through the church.

54:16 Translation Conspiracies in Christianity

• Misuse of scripture to justify statism, complacency in accepting interpretations.

• Acceptance of out-of-context verses need for deeper scripture study.

• Potential influence of translation committees on skewing original text meanings.

10:02 Lost in Translation

• "Connotation stack up" effect on scriptural interpretation.

• Stacking translations misleading readers about biblical instructions.

21:24 Romans 13 and Governing Authorities

• Interpretation issues surrounding Romans 13, historical context.

• Critical difference between "submit" and "obey" in scripture.

24:14 Christianity and Politics

• Relationship between Christianity and politics, scriptural translation.

• Role of political authority in relation to faith.

36:43 Untranslated Greek Words in the Bible

• Presence of untranslated Greek words in the Bible, implications for understanding.

• Translating certain Greek terms for clarity in Christian doctrine.

42:56 Government, Church, and Satan's Kingdom

• Secular nation-states as "fiefdoms of Satan."

• Governance, spiritual authority through the church vs secular entities.

47:06 Power and Authority of Christ

• True power, authority of Christ vs earthly rulers.

• Recognition of Jesus as the one true King, rejection of secular authority figures.

53:03 Frustration With Christian Statism

• Frustration with Christians accepting statist interpretations of scripture.

• Active effort in studying scripture for discerning true message.

01:00:59 Explore Duncan’s Work

• Reading articles on Peakd.com or his Hive Blog

• Duncan’s email: creator@sidefire.com

• Engagement with content, resources for deeper understanding.

---

Related Episodes

Related Blog Post

60. God or Government - Who's in Charge of the World? with Pete Rollo of Rival Nations & Abby Cleckner

About this episode

In this episode, Craig and his better podcast half, Abby Cleckner, are joined by Peter Rollo, founder of the website and blog project Rival Nations. Pete shares the history of Rival Nations, why he started it, why he was anonymous for so long, and where the project is headed. 

If you’ve ever questioned if the world of politics, on any side, be it liberal, conservative, anarchist, or libertarian always seems prone to the ways of this world, to violence. This episode looks at why that is, and why we, as Christians are called to a different kingdom, and we must continue to abide by the ways of that Kingdom, the one Jesus showed us, rather than pursue earthly powers.

Too often we find Christians falling into the fallacy that, if we just get more Christians elected into office things will change, and God’s will can be implemented, with the right leaders, but this is the illusion we see Jesus reject time and time again in the Bible. How do we get to this conclusion? By looking at what Jesus has to teach us. In the second half of the episode, Pete breaks down his article, Christians Can’t Be in Government, to show us exactly who is at the forefront of political power (hint: it is not God!).

We see Israel fall when it turns to earthly Kings, and we see Jesus reject the role of Messiah, in an effort to show us God’s way, not Man’s. Rival Nations is a digital archive of Pete’s theological journey, and it all started with seeing Jesus as a political force, not in his pursuit of political power, but, rather, in his rejection of it. Let us know what you think and the comments, or by sharing your thoughts on social media!

Episode Timestamps:

1:46 Pete’s Background

• Public ministry and expressing “radical” viewpoints

4:08 The difficulty of engaging those we disagree with

6:31 Peter’s Political Journey 

• No political ideology or government aligns with Jesus

• Jesus is the alternative to the earthly missions of political movements

• Jesus is political

8:27 Creation of Rival Nations (formerly done anonymously)

• Peter created the website as a tool for himself

11:30 How the Political realization of Jesus transformed Peter’s Theology

• Word Gospel was not a Hebrew word, but a word caesar was using and Jesus co-opted the phrase

• Early church’s focus on Jesus

• Modern church’s alignment with the Roman Catholic church vs. the early church of historic Christianity

• Anabaptist 

16:17 Peter’s Article - Christians Can’t Be in Government

• If you take Jesus seriously, we must abstain from seeking political power

• The myth of “getting more Christians in office will fix things”

• George W. Bush claimed to follow Jesus vs. his actions while in office (war)

• Can a Christian run a secular government, without engaging in violence

• Governments cannot love their enemy the way Jesus calls on us to love ours

• Satan offered Jesus political power and Jesus rejected it

  • Politics pulls us away from God?

  • Satan wants more Christians in office

20:22 Did God create the government (or any government)?

• 1 Samuel 8

• Humanity was given authority over animals and nature - not humanity

• Israel had no king and was supposed to be an example, but they fell into wanting kings

  • Violence always comes from wanting to control others

• The whole power structure has to be turned upside down to follow Jesus

• The notion of “Jesus for President” can never make sense with the current system

27:06 Jesus being tempted with political power and rejecting it

• Jesus avoided term Messiah

  • Had violence in its history

• People kept trying to make him king

• Satan directly tempts him

• Jesus is not going to come back and be violent

  • Why would Jesus change his mind?

• Jesus will not “slay out enemies”

  • Our propensity toward violence drives us to this thinking

• The myth of American Cowboy

  • “Might makes right”

  • Our enormous military power

  33:07 Opt-Out and Follow Jesus

• America is not our nation, Christnation is

• We are ambassadors of the Kingdom of Heaven

• But what about paul using his Roman citizenship?

  • We do what we need to survive practically and leverage situations for our mission for God and further the Gospel

• Accepting Jesus as king of your life is the only citizenship you get to choose to participate in

  • What paul talked about was a rival nation to Rome

38:59 “God puts people in political power”

• Reading Romans 13 without reading Romans 12

• Old vs. New Testament

• 3 Temptations of Jesus

• Is Satan only interested in Jesus worshiping him?

• If we know the temptation, why would we partake in it?

• Does Romans 13 work for Nazi Germany?

  • Then it doesn't work for you and America

44:49 God in the Process of Resorting All Things

• Escetoloy

• Times Theology

• Eternal Torment 

48:10 Connect with Peter and Rival Nations

• Rivalnations.org

Facebook Page, Instagram, Twitter, RSS

---

Related Episodes

Related Blog Post