149. Is Your Christianity Just Patriotism? Learning to Love Beyond the Flag with Misty Hubbard

There’s a version of Christianity that never really meets Jesus.
It memorizes the pledge, knows all the right political buzzwords, and can quote more politicians than church fathers. It says “Christ is King” on Sunday and “vote harder” on Monday, as if Caesar just needs a better campaign manager.

That was the air Craig and Misty both breathed for years.

They organized rallies, cheered on “good candidates,” defended the Constitution like it had been handed down on Sinai. It felt righteous. It felt Christian. It felt like fighting the good fight, until Jesus started messing with their loyalties.

This episode is the story of waking up from that spell.

Not into apathy or cynicism, but into something weirder and older: a Kingdom where the Sermon on the Mount is more binding than the Bill of Rights, and where the question isn’t “How do we save America?” but “How do we love our enemies like Christ?”

When the Flag Becomes Your Faith

Misty didn’t stumble into politics by accident. She’s a wife, mom, grandma, and restaurant manager in Arkansas, the kind of person who knows everyone at the grocery store and cares deeply about her town. For years, that care took the shape of activism: gun-rights events, local organizing, being “all in” for Team Red.

Craig remembers meeting her back then, at a Chris Ann Hall convention in Clarksville. Both of them were learning about the Constitution, the Founders, the history they never got in school. It was exciting. It felt like discovering hidden truth. And over time, that civics education started to feel a lot like discipleship.

The problem? The more energy went into “saving the country,” the less energy was left for the actual living out of the things Jesus says about enemies, violence, and power. It’s not that patriotism and faith can’t coexist, but if you’re honest, one usually ends up calling the shots.

The Class That Broke the Spell

The turning point for Misty wasn’t a Bible study. It was a civics class.

She signed up as a die-hard constitutional conservative ready to nod along. Instead, the teacher, friend of the project, Mike Gaddy, started pulling at threads: the myths about the founding, the sanitized hero stories, the idea that United States was uniquely holy.

Misty left that first session furious. She went home with a notebook full of quotes, determined to disprove him. She cracked open books, dug into history, chased footnotes… and found out the uncomfortable thing: he wasn’t lying. The founding was messier than the church bumper stickers made it sound.

One question stuck in her ribs: “When have you ever voted yourself more free?”

She thought about politicians she’d worked for who sold out the second they got in office. She thought about all the cheering for “freedom” while bombs fell on people who’d never heard of her. Slowly, painfully, she realized her “Christian” activism had quietly become devotion to the state.

When Compassion Outgrows Your Patriotism

Craig went through his own version of that. Looking back at his old voting record, neoconservative almost every time, he feels a weight. Not because voting is the worst sin ever, but because those choices empowered real people to wage real wars on real families. Once Jesus taught him to see beyond the labels, he couldn’t shrug it off as “just politics” anymore.

That’s the strange side effect of taking “No King but Christ” seriously: your compassion gets bigger than your borders. Suddenly you can’t hear about drone strikes, refugee camps, or kids in cages without thinking, Those are my neighbors too.

Misty admits she used to be the one cheering for the war, as long as the “bad guys” were far away. Now she sees faces instead of flags. The same Jesus who told her to love her literal neighbor is also Lord over the moms and dads in countries she’ll never visit. Once that sinks in, a certain kind of patriotic chest-thumping starts to feel… off.

Rage-Posting in Jesus’ Name

Then there’s the internet.

If you’ve spent any time on Facebook, you’ve met this guy: profile full of Bible verses and worship songs… and also full of posts calling people “demon-crats,” fantasizing about political dynasties, and mocking “woke queer trash” or whatever today’s latest slur is.

Misty watches one of these men in her feed whiplash between “I love Jesus so much” and “if you don’t like it, delete me, you idiots.” She finally comments, not to dunk on him, but to say: “You’re not just pushing people away from your politics. You’re pushing them away from Christianity.”

And that’s the heartbreak. People like her coworker, who told Misty, “I just wish all Christians were like you,” aren’t rejecting the real Jesus. They’re rejecting a Jesus-shaped mask worn over cruelty, contempt, and tribal rage.

Craig points out the obvious but rarely-said thing: if someone only knows Christians like that, of course they want nothing to do with our faith. Why would they? The fruit is rotten.

Taking It Offline

One of the most practical parts of this conversation is embarrassingly simple: take it offline.

If you’re going to challenge someone you know, about their politics, their rhetoric, their discipleship, do it face to face if you can.

Tone is different when you’re sitting across from a human you share a town and a table with. You can see their expression, hear their hesitation, notice when they’re actually trying to be loving but clumsy. On Facebook, all you see is words and your own projection of malice.

Misty and Craig have both seen it over and over: online, people are ready to torch each other. In person, they’re softer, more open, more aware that the other person has a story too. If “No King but Christ” is going to mean anything in our politics, it’ll show up in those small, awkward, holy in-person conversations.

Little Kingdom Cells in Arkansas

Out of all this wrestling, Misty has quietly started something small in Russellville, a little circle of younger folks trying to figure out what it means to follow Jesus instead of party platforms. Just a group of people who gather to read Scripture, wrestle with current events, and ask, “Would Jesus really be okay with this?”

They practice disagreeing without dehumanizing. They experiment with actually blessing enemies instead of owning them.

It doesn’t look like much. But neither did twelve confused disciples in Galilee.

Kingdom seeds are being scattered.

Listen & Reflect

• Listen: Pay close attention when Misty talks about the class that made her angry. What would you have done with that information?

• Ask: Where has your “Christian” identity quietly fused with your national or political identity?

• Confess: Is there anyone you’ve treated like trash in Jesus’ name that you need to repent to?

• Practice: Pick one person you strongly disagree with and invite them to coffee. Ask more questions than you make statements.

🤝Connect with MISTY hubbard:

• Facebook

Episode Timestamps:

(00:00) From statism to “No King but Jesus”

• Craig welcomes Misty and sets the theme: deeper faith, deeper compassion.

(00:05) Meet Misty: Arkansas, restaurant, and kindness over hate

• Misty introduces herself as an Arkansas restaurant manager, wife, mom, and grandma.

• She jokes about “Go Hogs” and the pain of that as a sports fan.

• She explains that her goal is to spread the message through kindness, not hate.

• Craig riffs on how Facebook trains people to act the opposite of Jesus online.

(01:22) The Chris Ann Hall rally and early constitutional days

• Craig and Misty remember meeting at a “Second Amendment” rally in Clarksville.

• They were both learning new things about the founding and the Constitution.

• Craig notes that the teacher helped him understand civics but stayed deeply statist.

• Misty mentions organizing that event as part of a local gun group and later politicians.

(12:29) “Good candidates” and the lost cause of electoral politics

• Craig and Misty talk about candidates who stop caring once they’re in office.

• Misty calls trying to get “good people” elected a lost cause.

• Craig pushes back on the idea that not voting means “doing nothing.”

• They argue that handing more authority to rulers isn’t the same as loving neighbors.

(14:24) Owning neocon votes and paid patriotism

• Craig admits he voted for neoconservatives almost every time and feels responsibility for what those politicians did.

• Misty describes “paid patriotism:” the millions spent to keep people flag-waving.

• They call out propaganda around the anthem, sports, and outrage over who stands or kneels.

• The conversation exposes how manipulated our sense of “duty” often is.

(15:31) “Vote harder” and the salsa break

• Misty notes how division is stirred up so we’ll “vote harder” for our team.

• Craig jokes about needing to hold your mouth just right in the voting booth.

• The Bad Roman salsa jingle kicks in, inviting listeners to support the show instead of the state.

• They come back from the break still poking at the myth that voting is the highest form of action.

(16:25) The class that wrecked Misty’s civic religion

• Craig walks Misty through how, after her event organizing, she met Mike Gaddy.

• Her first class with him made her furious as a constitutional conservative.

• She went home, took notes, and researched to try to prove him wrong.

• Instead she confirmed that the founding was ugly and we’d been sold a myth.

(18:00) When have you ever voted yourself more free?

• Misty recalls Gaddy’’s question about whether we’ve ever “voted ourselves more free.”

• They wrestle with the claim that soldiers are “over there fighting for our freedom.”

• Craig and Misty ask what our “freedom” was doing in Somalia while bombs fell on children.

• They connect this to a broader realization that empire and Kingdom serve different masters.

(39:29) None of us were born anarchists

• Craig notes that most anarchists he knows started out statist, just like him and Misty.

• They mention friends like Gaddy whose stories include serious regret.

• Misty laughs about her Facebook memories reminding her how statist she used to be.

• Craig jokes about “accidentally” losing access to his old account and starting fresh.

(47:40) Compassion that outgrows the flag

• Craig says that taking “No King but Jesus” seriously changed how he views war and cages at the border.

• Misty admits she used to cheer for war and “get the bad guys at all costs.”

• Now she sees people in other nations as God’s children too, not faceless enemies.

(52:16) A daily Jesus lesson at work

• Misty talks about a coworker who didn’t believe at all but loved their daily conversations.

• The coworker told her, “I just wish all Christians were like you.”

• Misty compares fake Christians to people wearing a Lakers jersey without playing for the Lakers.

• She says Jesus teaches and shows you to treat people with kindness, not contempt.

(55:48) “Founded on Christian values?” vs cursing your enemies

• Craig reads a meme fantasizing about a decades-long MAGA dynasty and calling opponents vile names.

• He asks how anyone can say “we’re founded on Christian values” while talking like that.

• Misty says this kind of faking pushes people like her unbelieving friend away.

(57:04) You’re pushing people away from Christianity (not just politics)

• Misty shares another post where the same guy curses “demon-crats” and tells him to delete him.

• Someone tells him he’s pushing people away from Christian conservative Republicans.

• Misty comments that he’s pushing people away from Christianity, period.

• They both highlight how the same feed includes sweet Jesus posts right after hateful rants.

(58:00) Take it offline: Face-to-face hits different

• Craig asks if Misty knows the guy personally and encourages her to talk with him in person.

• He notes that tone is completely different face to face than on Facebook.

• Misty says if you perceive a comment as snarky online, it’s snarky, whether it was meant that way or not.

• Seeing someone’s face makes it clear when they’re trying to be loving, not hateful.

(59:10) The solution: Be more like Jesus

• Craig directly asks Misty what the solution is to Christians entangled with the state.

• She says it plainly: be more like Jesus as best we can.

• Treat people the way Jesus would, especially those you disagree with.

• They agree that this is how you actually win people over and introduce them to Christ.

(1:04:12) Misty’s local Russellville group

• Misty describes a small, unofficial local group she’s started with younger folks.

• They share Jesus’ teachings and plug them into current events like the Charlie Kirk story.

• She pushes members to ask if they’re taking verses out of context or truly following Jesus.

(1:08:08) Stepping back from social media and cat memes

• Craig talks about unplugging from social media after some heavy events like the Kurt murder.

• He reminds folks that what they heard is a snapshot of his and Misty’s usual conversations.

• Misty jokes about posting cat memes with Craig’s face, and Craig embraces being the “crazy cat lady.”

Highlights & Takeaways

• The more seriously Craig and Misty take Jesus, the more compassion they feel for people their teams used to call enemies.

• “When have you ever voted yourself more free?” became a crucial question in leaving statism.

• Paid patriotism and propaganda keep people outraged, divided, and committed to “voting harder.”

• Social media rants about “demon rats” and “woke” enemies push people away from Christianity, not toward it.

• Face-to-face conversations reveal tone and care in ways Facebook never can.

• Ordinary kindness at work—a daily Jesus lesson—can open hearts more than any argument.

• Local, informal groups like Misty’s in Russellville help people work out what “Christ is King” really means in practice.

• 100% of donations beyond production costs go to Memphis-area charities, keeping the project rooted in real-world love of neighbor.

Calls to Action

If this episode helped disentangle your faith from the state and grow your compassion, share it with someone still stuck in “vote harder” mode.

If you want to help keep the message of No King but Christ in people’s feeds, visit Spotfund and search “No King but Christ.” Even five or ten bucks a month helps keep the show going and supports local Memphis charities beyond production costs.

If you’re near Russellville, Arkansas and want to dive into these conversations in person, find Misty Hubbard via the Bad Roman Facebook page and ask about her group.

Love y’all.

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146. Christianity without Compromise: Jesus Centered Life, Not Left or Right with Jake Doberenz

When Christians step into the political arena, do we realize how much compromise it takes to stay there?

It’s easy to think that casting a vote, joining a campaign, or posting about “God and country” is just doing our civic duty. But what happens when the cross gets buried under a flag and we call that faithfulness?

In this episode of The Bad Roman Podcast, Craig Hargis sits down with Jake Doberenz, host of Christianity Without Compromise and writer of the Smashing Idols Substack, to unpack what happens when believers give their loyalty to Caesar and call it discipleship. From a rigged high-school election to the moral chaos of modern war, this conversation asks a dangerous question:

👉 Can you follow Jesus without compromise and still play the political game?

The Illusion of Influence: Why Our Votes Don’t Redeem the System

Jake shares a funny but revealing story from high school: helping count ballots in a student election that didn’t add up. The “safe” candidate won, even though the “popular” one clearly had more votes.

It’s small potatoes compared to Washington, D.C., but the lesson hit deep – politics is messy because power always corrupts. Even good intentions get swallowed up by systems built on ambition, control, and fear.

The same thing happens every election season in America. Christians line up behind the lesser of two evils and call it righteousness, forgetting that evil (lesser or not) is still evil. As Craig puts it:

“We’re outsourcing our sin to politicians and calling it stewardship.”

We tell ourselves that our guy will make a difference, that our vote “matters.” But as history and Scripture both show, when human power is the goal, the Kingdom always gets compromised.

Israel’s King Problem: A Warning from 1 Samuel 8

When Israel demanded a king, God warned them exactly what would happen:

“He will take your sons for his army, your daughters for his servants, your fields for his gain. You will cry out because of your king, but the Lord will not answer you.” (1 Samuel 8)

They wanted to be “like the nations.” They wanted the comfort of a visible ruler, something tangible they could trust. But a king, any king, always costs something. And as Jake points out, the story of David proves it.

David began as a humble man after God’s heart, refusing to kill Saul, honoring God above self. But the moment he put on the crown, the corruption began. Politics twisted even the best of men.

Sound familiar? We see it every election cycle. The promises start holy, the slogans sound moral, but once power hits the bloodstream, compromise follows.

The lesson is timeless: You can’t have a king and still claim “No King but Christ.”

Psalm 146: A Better Political Manifesto

If the modern church needs a political platform, Psalm 146 should be it:

“Do not put your trust in princes, in human beings, who cannot save… Blessed are those whose help is the God of Jacob.”

Politicians die. Policies change. Empires fall. But the Kingdom of God is consistent: feeding the hungry, freeing prisoners, lifting up the oppressed, and frustrating the wicked.

The psalmist describes God’s Kingdom as everything the state isn’t: compassionate instead of coercive, restorative instead of retaliatory, faithful instead of fickle.

When Christians defend injustice in the name of national interest, when we justify violence because it’s “our side” doing it, we aren’t advancing the Kingdom…we’re betraying it.

Romans 12 Before Romans 13

Jake makes a crucial point: never read Romans 13 before Romans 12.

Romans 12 tells us to bless our enemies, to overcome evil with good, and to refuse revenge. Then comes Romans 13, the chapter everyone loves to quote to justify obedience to government.

But if your reading of Romans 13 gives Caesar permission to do what Jesus forbids you to do, you’ve missed the point. The passage isn’t a loophole for Christians to fund or bless violence, it’s a reminder that God can use even corrupt governments for His purposes. It’s descriptive, not prescriptive.

The call remains the same: love your enemies, feed your enemies, pray for those who persecute you.

That’s the real revolution.

Consistency: The Most Radical Witness

Craig and Jake both circle back to one word: consistency.

It’s what made Jesus so magnetic. He didn’t just preach love of enemy, He practiced it, even as they nailed Him to a cross.

Consistency is what gives the gospel credibility. When Christians say “love your neighbor” but vote for leaders who bomb them, the world notices. When we preach peace but cheer for war, seekers walk away.

Jake shared a story of a friend who left the faith after watching Christians justify the slaughter in Gaza. “If this is Christianity,” he said, “I want nothing to do with it.”

That’s the cost of inconsistency. Not just hypocrisy, but lost souls.

Repentance and Reorientation

Repentance isn’t a guilt trip. It’s a direction change. As the Bible Project puts it, repentance means to turn around.

If your politics have hardened your heart, turn around.
If you’ve placed hope in princes and policies, turn around.
If you’ve excused violence because your side did it, turn around.

Refocus on the Sermon on the Mount. Build your life, and your worldview, on that mountain, not Capitol Hill.

A Different Kind of Politics

Neither Craig nor Jake are anti-political, they’re anti-idolatry. They believe in a Kingdom politics rooted in the Beatitudes, not ballots.

As Jake said:

“Jesus has a politics. But it looks nothing like America, or Uganda, or anywhere else on earth.”

The Kingdom of God is a government without coercion, a rule where the King dies for His enemies instead of killing them. That’s the politics of the Lamb.

It’s time for the church to recover it.

No King but Christ

When we call Jesus “King,” it’s not a metaphor. It’s an allegiance statement. It means nobody else gets to be king, not presidents, not pastors, not parties.

Craig sums it up perfectly:

“My allegiance is to Jesus. Not a president, not a senator, not a mayor. Jesus Christ alone.”

If that sounds radical, good. The early church was called radical too. Polycarp, Origen, and Tertullian all refused to worship the emperor. They were accused of being bad Romans.

Maybe that’s what faithfulness still looks like today.

Listen & Reflect

🎧 Listen to the full episode: Christianity without Compromise: Jesus Centered Life, Not Left or Right with Jake Doberenz, available on all major podcast platforms.

💬 Question for reflection:
If Jesus is King, what does that mean for how you engage with politics, power, and national identity?

📖 Scriptures to Revisit:
1 Samuel 8 | Psalm 146 | Matthew 5–7 | Romans 12–13

🤝Connect with Jake Doberenz:

Episode Timestamps:

(0:22) Introducing guest Jake Doberins

• Host of Christianity Without Compromise and author of Smashing Idols SubStack

• Exploring Christian involvement in politics and its real-world impact

(1:00) From “Smashing Idols” to “Christianity Without Compromise”

• Jake explains the podcast’s name change for clarity and focus

• Connection between his Substack and podcast projects

(2:26) Standing firm on the words of Jesus

• Discussing the need for consistency in following Christ’s teachings

• Rejecting political debates and distractions

(4:07) Jake’s background and calling

• Biblical Studies and Theological Studies degrees

• From church ministry to media ministry and podcast production

(8:00) Early political experience

• Jake’s role as Republican Club president in high school

• First-hand exposure to campaigns and local politics

(15:22) Wrestling with faith and politics

• Questioning whether political life aligns with Christian convictions

• Recognizing the temptation to compromise for success

(19:52) The cost of Christian political involvement

• Exploring how “outsourcing sin to Caesar” harms others

• Challenging Christians to see the damage caused by state loyalty

(24:12) Consistency as Christian witness

• Why inconsistency weakens the gospel message

• The power of living out “No King but Christ”

(28:51) 1 Samuel 8 and Israel’s demand for a king

• God’s warning about taxation, conscription, and oppression

• Parallels between ancient Israel and modern Christian nationalism

(32:00) Reading Romans 13 through Romans 12

• Understanding submission to government through enemy-love

• The Sermon on the Mount as the Christian’s true political manifesto

(35:35) The corrupting nature of power

• How King David’s downfall reveals the danger of authority

• Politics as a distraction from devotion to Jesus

(40:17) Psalm 146 — trusting God, not princes

• Contrast between human rulers and God’s faithfulness

• Reminder that only God’s Kingdom endures

(45:39) The mission behind Christianity Without Compromise

• Refocusing believers on Jesus over modern idols

• Addressing politics, Christian nationalism, and misplaced loyalties

(50:28) Encouragement for Christian creators

• Craig calls for more podcasts, blogs, and projects centered on Jesus

Importance of sharing the message: No King but Christ

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145. Charlie Kirk and the Lamb of God: Can You Carry the Flag and the Cross at the Same Time?

After Charlie Kirk’s tragic death, a deeper conversation has surfaced about the growing entanglement of Christianity and politics.

This episode of The Bad Roman Podcast steps into that tension and explores what happens when the Church trades the cross for a campaign.

Our guest, Brian Drinkwine, is a pastor and church planter who has walked that road himself. He went from a passionate political believer to a follower of Christ learning to question the marriage between faith and power. His viral post about Charlie Kirk’s memorial service sparked a national conversation and revealed how uneasy many Christians feel about the blending of faith and political ideology.

The Malaise of Modern Christianity

There is a growing discomfort in the Church, a spiritual restlessness that Brian calls malaise. Many believers sense that something is wrong, even if they cannot explain it.

This episode gives language to that unease and helps people who feel out of place in modern Christianity find words for what they feel.

“You’re not crazy,” Brian says to those who feel out of step. “You saw this and thought, something’s not right. You chose to give your allegiance to Jesus alone. That should be celebrated, not condemned.”

That is the heartbeat of The Bad Roman: No King but Christ.

It is not a slogan but a return to the simplicity and power of early Christianity.

The Danger of Political Allegiance

One of the clearest insights from this conversation is that political parties often act like religions.

Each one has its own sacred texts, rituals, and values. For some, the Constitution becomes scripture. Voting becomes a sacrament. Party leaders become prophets.

When Christians give their ultimate loyalty to these political “religions,” they risk betraying the Kingdom of God.

“We cannot serve both God and Mammon,” Brian reminds us. “And sometimes, political power becomes the new Mammon.”

This is not theory. It is a call to honest reflection.
Have we allowed our politics to shape our faith more than the teachings of Jesus?

Reframing Faith and Politics

Throughout the episode, Brian and Craig invite listeners to rethink what it means to follow Jesus in a politically divided world.

1. Patriotism vs. Nationalism: It is good to appreciate your country. But when love of nation becomes ultimate loyalty, it becomes idolatry.

2. The Narrow Path: Following Jesus is not about finding middle ground. It is about choosing a completely different way. The Kingdom of God is not found on the right or the left. It is found on the narrow road of Christ.

3. Repentance as Revolution: The word metanoia means a complete change of mind. It is not about guilt but about turning back to Jesus as King.

4. The Power of Forgiveness: The difference between Erica Kirk’s forgiveness and the calls for revenge at the memorial shows what Kingdom love really looks like.

Practical Steps for Realignment

If your faith feels tangled up in politics, Brian offers a few ways to begin untangling it.

• Take a “politics fast.” Step away from political media and spend time in the Gospels instead.

• Simplify your faith. Start again with the basics, like the Sermon on the Mount.

• Check your allegiances. Ask yourself, “If loving others like Jesus meant losing my party loyalty, could I do it?”

• Speak prophetically. True patriotism tells the truth, even when it is uncomfortable.

What This Teaches Us About Faith and Politics

This conversation is a mirror for all of us who have ever mixed our love for Jesus with our loyalty to empire. It reminds us that our mission is not political victory but faithfulness to Christ.

In a world divided by tribalism, allegiance to Jesus is the most countercultural thing we can offer.

“On the other side of my political allegiance,” Brian says, “when I gave that up and fully gave myself to Jesus, it is just a better life.”

So where does your allegiance really lie?
Are you ready to walk away from the noise and return to the way of Jesus?

The Kingdom still calls.

No King but Christ.

🤝Connect with Brian Drinkwine:

• Email: brian@briandrinkwine.com

• Website: https://briandrinkwine.com/

• Linkedin

• X

• Facebook

• Instagram 

• Ministry at Breakthrough Church

Episode Timestamps:

(0:22) Discussing reactions to Charlie Kirk's death

• Brian Drinkwine joins to discuss varied reactions to Kirk's passing

• Read Brains post here

• Examining potential blurred lines due to nationalism

• Questioning if some churches have lost focus on "no king but Jesus"

(0:48) Brian Drinkwine's background

• Grew up in Nashville, Tennessee in independent fundamental Baptist tradition

• Transitioned to Southern Baptist church and found faith at youth camp

• Experience in youth ministry and church planting

(4:09) The viral post about Charlie Kirk

• Origin of Drinkwine's post addressing the tragedy

• Unexpected widespread response and impact

• Dealing with the flood of messages and notifications

(10:45) Addressing the church's response

• Preparing a message to bring the congregation together

• Importance of uniting around Jesus rather than political parties

• Transcribing and adapting the message for social media

(23:52) Reflections on the memorial service

• Conflicting emotions during Charlie Kirk's memorial

• Redeeming moments and problematic statements

• Struggle with nationalistic undertones in Christian spaces

(29:19) The danger of political allegiance

• Exploring the concept of allegiance in faith and politics

• Matthew Bates' book "Salvation by Allegiance Alone"

• Warning against getting sucked back into allegiance to empire

(35:32) Early church perspective on empire

• Examining how early Christians responded to empire

• Importance of studying church fathers like Tertullian

• Unpopularity of this view in mainstream churches

(41:34) The malaise in modern Christianity

• Growing sense of unease among followers of Jesus

• Need to return to Jesus as the solution

• Importance of simplifying faith and focusing on basic teachings

(54:46) Christian nationalism and its impact

• Difference between patriotism and nationalism

• Danger of giving full allegiance to political parties

• Need for a prophetic voice while appreciating one's country

(1:06:56) Tools for self-reflection

• Developing a breakdown of political parties and Jesus as rival religions

• Creating a 10-point checklist for assessing political engagement

• Importance of distinguishing between political identity and identity in Christ

(1:17:34) Conclusion and future discussions

• Potential follow-up episode on political parties and Jesus as religions

• Invitation for listeners to engage in dialogue

• Plans for online community discussions on these issues

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143. Christians, Libertarians, and Voting: The Golden Rule Test

Are you unknowingly supporting tyranny every time you cast a ballot? This provocative question lies at the heart of our latest Bad Roman podcast episode featuring Jeb Smith, a thought-provoking writer challenging conventional wisdom on voting.

Christians, libertarians, or those who identify as both, often assume our civic duty includes heading to the polls. But what if participating in elections actually contradicts our core values? Let’s explore why voting might be fundamentally at odds with both Christian teachings and libertarian principles.

The Paradox of Voting

Jeb Smith argues that voting creates an inherent contradiction for both libertarians and Christians:

“If libertarianism is a live and let live attitude... voting is of course, the opposite of that. If libertarians get to that magic 51% and force their ways on everyone else, you’re no longer allowing Democrats and Republicans to have their way.”

This highlights a key tension: how can we claim to value individual liberty while simultaneously trying to impose our will on others through the ballot box?

For Christians, a similar dilemma emerges:

“God does not impose his way on us. He gives us the chance to choose him as Lord.”

That’s consistent with scripture:

• Matthew 7:12 – “So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.”

• Luke 22:25–26 – “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them… But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves.”

By voting to enact laws that align with our religious beliefs or choosing the lesser of two evils, are we not contradicting this core tenet of free will and Jesus’ call to serve rather than rule?

The Corrupting Nature of Political Power

Our discussion revealed how the very act of seeking political office often attracts individuals with troubling personality traits:

“The traits to make a successful politician are right on with what psychopaths are. There’s a large percentage of politicians and business owners… who are actually psychopaths.”

This sobering reality forces us to question whether participating in such a system aligns with our values. Are we inadvertently empowering those least suited to wield authority over others?

Reframing Our Civic Engagement

Rather than viewing voting as our primary means of effecting change, Jeb suggests a radical shift in perspective:

“One thing I won’t be doing is voting or attempting to force my way on others. Instead, I will follow the Golden Rule and treat others the way I want them to treat me.”

This approach challenges us to find more direct, personal ways of living out our values and influencing our communities. It asks us to lead by example rather than coercion.

3 Ways Christians Can Engage Without Voting

Stepping away from the ballot box doesn’t mean apathy — it can actually free us to pursue more Christlike, effective forms of engagement:

1. Invest in Relationships

• Instead of dividing over red vs. blue, break bread with neighbors across the spectrum.

• Real conversations build bridges where political shouting matches burn them.

2. Serve in Voluntary Community Initiatives

• Join or start projects that meet needs without waiting for government programs — food co-ops, mutual aid, church-led charity.

• This models the early church in Acts 2:44–45.

3. Teach and Model the Alternative

• Share resources that explain why voting contradicts both the Golden Rule and libertarian non-aggression.

• Encourage others to question whether the ballot box truly aligns with Christ’s way of peace.

For more on how the early church lived differently from the empire, see our episode on Tertullian and political disengagement and our blog post on No King but Christ.

What We Learned About Voting and Values

This episode challenges us to critically examine our assumptions about civic duty and political engagement. It asks us to consider whether our current methods of participation truly align with our deepest held beliefs.

For Christians, it prompts reflection on how we can best emulate Christ’s example of servant leadership and respect for individual choice. For libertarians, it pushes us to more fully embrace the non-aggression principle — even when it comes to the ballot box.

Ultimately, this conversation invites us all to reimagine what responsible citizenship looks like in a world where voting may do more harm than good. It challenges us to find more authentic, impactful ways of living out our values and contributing to the betterment of society.

Listen to the full episode to explore: how might stepping away from voting change your approach to civic engagement? What new opportunities for positive influence might emerge?

Let’s continue this crucial dialogue and work toward a more voluntary, compassionate society one that truly respects the dignity and autonomy of every individual.

🤝Connect with JEB SMITH:

• Jeb's Books:

  • Defending the Middle Ages: Little Known Truths About the Crusades, Inquisitions, Medieval Women, and More

  • Missing Monarchy: Correcting Misconceptions About The Middle Ages, Medieval Kingship, Democracy, And Liberty

  • The Road Goes Ever On and On : A New Perspective on J. R. R. Tolkien and Middle-earth

  • Defending Dixieland

• Fanmail and Hate mail via email: jackson18611096@gmail.com

• Jeb's Article: Is Libertarianism Consistent with Voting?

Episode Timestamps:

(0:41) Libertarianism and Voting Consistency

• “Live and let live” vs. majority rule

• Concern: Christians voting to place rulers over neighbors

(1:51) Guest Update: Jeb Smith’s Recent Work

• Defending Dixie’s Land reissued by Shotwell Publishing
  Articles with Libertarian Institute and Libertarian Christian Institute

(2:50) Libertarian Voting Paradox

• Why informed libertarians still vote

• Habit, protest voting, and misunderstandings of libertarian philosophy

(4:04) Historical Voting Patterns and Motivations

• Jeb’s past protest votes (Libertarian)

• Reflection: voting often unexamined as a social default

(5:43) Libertarian Electoral Success and Philosophical Consistency

• If Libertarians won: risk of imposing on dissenting minorities

• Tension with non-aggression and consent

(7:34) Voting as Legitimizing Corrupt Systems

• Withholding participation vs. “lesser of two evils”

• Note on turnout; argument for withdrawing support

(9:40) The Nature of Political Power and Authority

• Critique: democratic “authority” without true consent

• Coercion mechanisms: taxation, enforcement, military

(12:07) Fear and Coercion in State Power

• Fear as unifying tool of large states
  Thought experiment: local secession and central pushback

(14:37) Christian and Libertarian Approaches to Governance

• “Make the state Christian/libertarian” still relies on force

• Emphasis on consent and free will

(19:06) Democracy and Bullying

• Framing: democracy as tax-funded coercion

• Politics alters behavior; hardens attitudes

(22:23) Political Involvement and Dehumanization

• Media demonization cycles

• Immigration/ICE example raised as moral test of neighbor-love

(27:01) Disengagement from Politics

• Unplugging from news → lower stress, clearer thinking

• Better interpersonal relationships

(30:28) Voting as Participation in War

• Casting a ballot likened to joining a conflict of control

• Incompatibility with libertarian non-aggression and Jesus’ kingdom ethic

(34:10) Secularization of Christianity through Politics

• Enforcing faith via state power vs. Christ’s model of service/consent

• Biblical concern: another “king” between us and neighbor

(36:16) The Corrupting Nature of Political Power

• Campaign incentives: compromise and ambition

• Preference for servant leadership over power-seeking

(40:08) Psychopathy in Politics and Business

• Claim: politics attracts control-oriented personalities

• Risk: concentrated power amplifies harm

(42:29) The Golden Rule and Political Non-Participation

• Jeb’s stance: no voting; no forcing others

• Reported outcomes: improved relationships; reduced stress

(47:54) Additional Resources and Contact Information

• Books noted; open invite for dialogue

• Direction to further critiques of democracy

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Related Episodes

Related Blog Post

138. The Anatomy of the Statist: Unmasking the Mindset Behind Government Support with Patrick Carroll

Ever wondered why some people cling so tightly to the idea of government, even when faced with its glaring flaws? In this episode of the Bad Roman Podcast, we dive deep into the psychology of statism with Patrick Carroll, a brilliant thinker and writer who's been challenging the status quo for years.

Carroll's insights are like a splash of cold water to the face of conventional wisdom. He doesn't just critique government supporters – he dissects their motivations with surgical precision. And trust us, what he reveals will make you question everything you thought you knew about politics and society.

The Statist's Playbook: 10 Characteristics You Need to Know

Carroll breaks down the statist mindset into 10 distinct characteristics. It's like he's giving us a field guide to spot government supporters in the wild. But here's the kicker – it's not about judging them. It's about understanding why they think the way they do, so we can have more productive conversations and maybe, just maybe, change some minds.

1. The Humanitarian: The Road to Hell is Paved with Good Intentions

You know that friend who's always talking about how we need more government programs to help the poor? That's the humanitarian statist. Their heart's in the right place, but their solution is all wrong.

Carroll nails it when he says:

"The humanitarian impulse is great. Obviously, I also care about helping people. But I think it's important when we're trying to address why someone is pro-government to wrestle with the fact that they have a really compelling reason in their mind."

Here's the thing – we all want to help people. But using government force to do it? That's like trying to perform surgery with a sledgehammer. It might get the job done, but at what cost?

2. The Egalitarian: When Equality Becomes Tyranny

Ever heard someone say, "It's not fair that some people have so much more than others"? That's the egalitarian statist talking. They see inequality as inherently unjust and think the government should level the playing field.

But as Carroll points out:

"Even if we agree that maybe there's some value in creating a certain amount of equality in society, is that something that we should be coercing?"

It's a tough pill to swallow, but sometimes the cure is worse than the disease. Forced equality often leads to less prosperity for everyone.

3. The Paternalist: Big Brother Knows Best

This one's a doozy. The paternalist statist thinks they know what's best for you better than you do. They're the ones pushing for laws to ban "dangerous" foods or regulate every aspect of your life "for your own good."

Carroll hits the nail on the head:

"It's this very kind of self-righteous attitude of 'I know best, or you know, the government, us and our experts know best and don't worry, we're just going to take care of you.'"

Newsflash: Adults don't need a nanny state. We're capable of making our own decisions, thank you very much.

4. The Special Interest Group Member: Looking Out for Number One

This statist is all about using government power to benefit their group. Whether it's farmers lobbying for subsidies or corporations pushing for regulations that crush their competition, it's all about gaming the system.

Carroll doesn't pull any punches:

"It’s like you're telling me that you're willing to forcibly coerce other people purely so that you can financially benefit. How is that different from a thief going up to a guy in the street and holding a gun and saying, give me your wallet?"

Ouch. But he's not wrong. Using government force to line your own pockets is theft with extra steps.

5. The Risk Mitigator: Safety at Any Cost

Gun control advocates often fall into this category. They're so focused on reducing risk that they're willing to sacrifice freedom in the process.

Carroll offers a brilliant reframe:

"We live in a dangerous world, and that sucks. And definitely, I believe in systems like insurance to mitigate risk. I think mitigating risk is important. But we shouldn't be coercing people into mitigating risks."

Safety is important, but at what point does the cure become worse than the disease?

6. The Utilitarian: The Greatest Good for the Greatest Number?

This statist believes in maximizing social welfare through government intervention. They talk about "market failures" and think the state can fix them.

Carroll's skepticism is spot-on:

"I really question whether we can do any objective kind of social welfare calculations... And so I'm very skeptical of this idea that we can measure social welfare, let alone have the government come in and optimize it."

Even if you could measure social welfare, does that justify using force to achieve it?

7. The Theocrat: Legislating Morality, Putting more “Christians” in Office

Some statists, especially in religious circles, believe it's their duty to use government power to enforce moral or religious values.

Carroll offers a powerful counterargument:

"Is it really Christian to force morality on people? I totally understand the drive, but I would encourage Christians to really study the Bible and look at this."

Forcing virtue at gunpoint isn't virtuous at all.

8. The Resigned Follower: It's Just the Way Things Are

This statist has given up. They might agree with libertarian principles in theory, but they think a voluntary society is impossible.

Carroll's response is inspiring:

"I don't share that pessimism... I think we just need to look at history to have faith in the market."

Just because something hasn't been done yet doesn't mean it's impossible.

9. The Megalomaniac: Power for Power's Sake

Some people just love having power over others. It's a sad reality, but these statists exist.

Carroll's advice is simple:

"I think we just need to gang up on those people and tell them no, like, sorry, you're not going to get your way and you're not going to use us as pawns."

No elaboration needed. Power-hungry individuals have no place in a free society.

10. The Intolerant: The Heart of Statism

This is the core of the statist mentality. All the other characteristics boil down to this:

"At the end of the day, the conclusion is, I am going to be intolerant of you living your life as you see fit. I'm going to force you to comply with my value system and my personal beliefs. And that is something that every statist shares by definition."

It's a harsh truth, but an important one. Statism, at its core, is about forcing others to live according to your values. It's not about left vs. right. It's about whether you're willing to use force to make others live the way you think they should.

What We Learned About the Statist Mindset

This episode is a wake-up call. It challenges us to examine our own beliefs about government and ask some tough questions:

• Are we truly tolerant if we support using force to make others live as we think they should?

• Can we achieve our goals of helping others and creating a better society without resorting to government coercion?

• Are we willing to apply the same moral standards to government actions that we apply to individuals?

The answers might make you uncomfortable. But that discomfort is the first step towards a more consistent and ethical worldview.

Ready to have your mind blown? Listen to the full episode and prepare to see the world in a whole new light. And remember – questioning the status quo isn't just rebellious. It's necessary for a free and just society.

🤝Connect with Patrick:

• Blog

• Facebook Page

• Twitter (X), 

• The Prudent Navigator (website/blog)

• Read Patrick’s Mises Institute Articles

• Read or Listen to The Anatomy of a Statist article

Episode Timestamps:

(0:22) Patrick Carroll returns to discuss "The Anatomy of the Statist"

• Exploration of the Statist mentality and its challenges

• Previous appearances on episodes 16 and 55

• Episode 16: If You Vote You Can’t Complain

• Episode 55: Is Taxation Slavery?

(0:58) Patrick's recent work and philosophical journey

• Managing editor at Foundation for Economic Education

• Focus on economics, policy, and libertarian philosophy

• Influence of thinkers like Nietzsche, Rothbard, and classical liberals

(4:17) Discussion on Patrick's writing style and approach

• Larken Rose on the Bad Roman

• Episode 83: The Cult of Statism 

• Episode 91: Breaking Down the Jones Plantation

• Episode 134: Immigration and Christian Values: Challenging the Border Fetish Brigade

• Emphasis on direct, matter-of-fact communication

• Importance of consistency in thinking and living out principles

(5:47) The appeal of libertarian philosophy

• Internal consistency and principled approach

• Rejection of exceptions to moral principles

(7:45) Breaking the framing of political conversations

• Libertarianism as a refreshing alternative to left-right dichotomy

• Questioning cultural assumptions about government

(10:37) The Anatomy of the Statist: 10 characteristics

• Humanitarian impulse and its relation to statism

• Egalitarian motivations for government intervention

(17:47) The utilitarian perspective on government

• Market failure arguments and social welfare calculations

• Skepticism towards government optimization of social welfare

(23:17) The theocrat and Christian involvement in politics

• Critique of using government to enforce Christian morality

• Biblical perspective on non-interference and servant leadership

(31:41) The risk mitigator and government regulation

• Gun control as an example of risk mitigation through legislation

• Alternative approaches to risk management without coercion

(53:57) The megalomaniac and power dynamics of government

• Addressing those who seek power for its own sake

• Importance of resisting authoritarian tendencies

(56:24) The heart of the statist: intolerance

• Common thread of compelling others to live by one's values

• Contrast with libertarian principles of live and let live

(59:52) Taxation as theft: beyond metaphor

• Clarifying the libertarian position on taxation

• Ethical implications of equating taxation with common theft

(1:03:43) Free market principles and conservative inconsistencies

• Critique of tariffs and government regulation

• Importance of genuine free market understanding

(1:05:31) Conclusion and resources

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Related Blog Post

136. Critical Thinking in the Age of Government Control with Jeffrey Hann

The Fallacious Belief in Government: Unmasking the Illusion of State Control

Are you ready to challenge everything you thought you knew about government and freedom? In this eye-opening episode of the Bad Roman Podcast, we dive deep into the heart of statism with author and researcher Jeffrey Hann. His latest book, The Fallacious Belief in Government: Warp Speed Toward Tyranny, exposes the dangerous myths we've been fed about the necessity of state control.

As we unpack the layers of government deception, you'll discover:

• Why critical thinking is deliberately suppressed in public education.

• How psychological operations keep us trapped in a cycle of fear and obedience.

• The true nature of government as a tool of control over the innocent.

• Why voting can't save us from the inevitable march toward tyranny.

• How embracing anarchist principles could be our path to genuine freedom.

Prepare to have your assumptions challenged and your perspective transformed. This isn't just another political discussion – it's a wake-up call for anyone who values true liberty.

The Critical Thinking Crisis

What if our education system is deliberately designed to create "literacy slaves" – people smart enough to work, but not equipped to think critically about the world around them? Jeffrey breaks down how the classical trivium and Prussian education models have shaped generations of minds:

"You have the classical trivium that really creates literacy slaves that are smart enough to work, but not smart enough to think for themselves. The another model that the US picked up was the Prussian education system. The Prussian education system was designed by the Prussians after their military and mercenaries lost against Napoleon. And their parliament decided and determined that it was because soldiers were thinking for themselves."

This systematic suppression of independent thought isn't an accident – it's a feature of the system designed to maintain control. By understanding the three pillars of critical thinking – grammar, logic, and rhetoric – we can begin to break free from this mental prison.

The Psychological Warfare Playbook

Government control goes far beyond the classroom. Jeffrey exposes the insidious world of psychological operations (psyops) used to manipulate public perception and behavior:

"And if you're unaware of that, it just seeps in and it causes a psychological effect so that you struggle at trying to make real informed decisions, making you easier to control and manipulate."

From manufactured crises to carefully crafted narratives, these tactics keep us in a constant state of fear and compliance. By recognizing these strategies, we can start to see through the illusion and reclaim our mental autonomy.

The True Nature of Government

From democracy to tyranny - is it inevitable? Hann walks us through Plato's five regimes and why he thinks we're headed for a fall. 

At its core, Jeffrey argues that government is nothing more than "a tool or action of control over the innocent." This fundamental truth challenges the very foundation of what most people believe about the role of the state in society:

"The true nature of government is tyrannical… just looking at the word government itself, it's a tool or action of control over the innocent. And I always classify that. ‘Over the innocent’ is why it makes it tyrannical because that, if you're being controlled and you haven't committed a crime, created a victim, then your rights are being violated."

This perspective forces us to confront uncomfortable questions about the legitimacy of state power and the true meaning of concepts like "law" and "justice."

The Illusion of Political Solutions

If you're pinning your hopes on the next election to solve society's problems, Jeffrey has a sobering message:

"There's no voting our way out of it. Tyranny is just gonna progress further and further. Trump and Musk are implementing Agenda 2030 and ushering in the Great Reset."

He argues that the political system itself is designed to perpetuate control, regardless of which party or individual is in power. This cycle of tyranny can't be broken through conventional means – it requires a fundamental shift in how we think about governance and freedom.

Embracing Anarchist Principles

So what's the alternative? Jeffrey advocates for a form of anarchism based on voluntary interactions and respect for natural rights:

"Anarchism is a system or practice of no rulers, voluntary action and absence of government over the innocent, based on natural rights, life, freedom and property. That is the, the most succinct definition I can provide of what anarchy is and that there's no middle ground."

This isn't about chaos or disorder – it's about creating systems that respect individual autonomy while allowing for voluntary cooperation. It's a radical reimagining of how society could function without coercive state control.

What We Learned About Freedom and Government

This conversation with Jeffrey Hann challenges us to question our deepest assumptions about the role of government in our lives. By exposing the fallacious belief in state control, we open the door to new possibilities for genuine freedom and voluntary cooperation.

Key takeaways:

• Critical thinking is a skill that can be developed, despite systemic efforts to suppress it.

• Psychological operations are constantly at work to maintain our compliance – awareness is the first step to resistance.

• Government, by its very nature, is a tool of control over the innocent.

• Political solutions within the current system cannot address the fundamental problems of state tyranny.

• Embracing anarchist principles based on voluntary interaction and natural rights offers a path forward.

Are you ready to challenge your beliefs and explore a new vision of freedom? Listen to the full episode for an in-depth exploration of these ideas and practical steps you can take to reclaim your autonomy. Remember, true change begins with how we think about the world around us. It's time to break free from the mental chains of statism and embrace a future of genuine liberty.

Connect with Jeffery:

Get His Books:

• COVID-19: A Short Path to You'll Own Nothing and You'll Be Happy (2023)

• The Fallacious Belief in Government: Warp Speed Toward Tyranny (2025)

Connect with Jeffrey Hann on social:

• X (Twitter): @JeffreyHann

• Instagram: @Jeffrey.A.Hann

• YouTube: JREV Music

Listen to the Music:

• "Fallacious Belief in Government" album on YouTube

• "Militant Anarchist" album on YouTube

• Also available on streaming platforms like Spotify, Apple Music, and Pandora

Explore his Website:

• Journalistic Revolution: journalisticrevolution.com

• Instagram: @journalisticrevolution

Facebook: Journalistic Revolution

Episode Timestamps:

(2:01) Jeffrey's recent projects

• Music production and album releases

• Focus on conveying philosophical beliefs through music

(3:01) Critical thinking and government belief

• Challenges in getting people to question their faith in government

• Importance of critical thinking skills in today's society

(4:30) Personal journey of changing beliefs

• Discomfort in realizing one's previous beliefs were wrong

• Importance of being open to new perspectives

(6:06) Psychological operations and fear

• Discussion on the use of fear by governments

• Historical context of psychological operations

(8:34) Life cycle of government

• Exploration of Plato's five regimes

• Inevitability of tyranny in governmental systems

(20:36) Democracy and its flaws

• Critique of democracy as majority rule

• Discussion on the misuse of the term in modern politics

(25:23) Anarchism and its principles

• Definition and exploration of anarchist philosophy

• Importance of voluntary interactions and absence of rulers

(37:35) Roads argument and government justification

• Common arguments for government necessity

• Critique of government efficiency in infrastructure

(42:05) Hope and the need for societal evolution

• Discussion on the potential for positive change

• Importance of creating content to spread ideas

(47:55) Jeffrey's resources and future projects

• Overview of books, articles, and music

• Upcoming work on plasma cosmology

(49:20) Conclusion and call to action

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Related Blog Post

73. Foster Care, Adoption and the Church: 2022 Year End Round Table

About this Episode

It’s time for the year-end round table! Episode 57 on Foster Care, Adoption & the Church was a hit, so we are revisiting the theme of foster care, adoption, and the church while adding new voices. Our guests are Darren Freidinger, Amber Nelson, and Jessica Autrey, each has fostered and/or adopted children including special needs children and international adoptions. In this episode, we discuss ways in which churches and individuals can practically care for orphans and their families ensuring vulnerable children will grow up in loving families.

Our guests are here to share their experiences with the state, private adoption agencies, and churches. If you have ever considered adoption, this episode is a must! And if you haven’t ever considered adopting or fostering, this episode is still a must, as our guests are passionate advocates for children and want to see more placements in Christian homes.

If our guests cannot convince you to foster or adopt, you will still be given food for thought as we ask questions like: What do Christian anarchists think about the state being involved with vulnerable children? Is adoption easier through the state or private adoption agencies? How many families are willing and waiting to adopt children? Why are churches not ensuring children have healthy and safe homes? What can Christians do to help families rearing adopted children?

Connect with Jay:

Amber Nelson’s fan page

Episode Timestamps:

1:05 - Guest introductions

• Darren

• Returning guest from episode 57

• Popular episode with good response

• Two adopted daughters

• Fostering 3 younger children, waiting to begin their adoption processes

• Jessica

• Eight children, 3 are adopted from Ukraine in 2011

• Amber

• Music Teacher in public school

• Three sons

8:15 – How do we feel about the state being involved in child foster care?

• Craig: 

• Doesn’t like the state being involved in child protection

• Darren: 

• As bad as the situation is for children right now, the state made the right call on the girls in his care

• Christ following parents need to be involved

• The church could do better than the state

• Amber: 

• The children of addicts and mental health problems need better equipped helpers.

• Child safety is top priority

• As a schoolteacher, she saw that the caseworkers were so overwhelmed that referrals did not help suspected abused children

• Jessica: 

• Real cases fall through the cracks

• But when parents make decisions such as not vaccinating them, the state may become involved

• Wanted to adopt from her first child to ensure children had the love she wanted to give her son

• Saw a blog about the conditions of special needs orphans in Eastern Europe

• Special needs children are discarded

• Orphanage care is patchy, but especially terrible for special-needs children

• Experience in helping people with Downs Syndrome

22:09 – Roe v Wade

• When people are happy about the overturning, they should be willing to adopt kids

• It is easier to adopt children from other countries because the US government interferes

• It took Amber a year to get a license to adopt

• There are a lot of arbitrary rules that change between case-workers

• There are invasions of privacy while you foster

• The state is an obstacle to adoption

• There is a waiting list for adopting infants

• The children come with traumas

• Roe v Wade did not end abortion, just sent the decision back to the states

• It’s just politics

• Older children, sibling groups or those born with health issues face barriers to adoption

33:20 – Adoption and the church

• Why are churches not ensuring children have healthy and safe homes?

• Craig has never heard it in church

• When Amber has heard it is has been an addendum to the service

• The Baptist church sometimes runs training for foster parents

• There’s no sermons about it

• Darren’s experience in church has been hit-and-miss

• His church has a November adoption month

• Darren wants individuals helping families adopting children

• Babysit the children and let the parents go shopping

• Hang out with parents with eight children

• Have an adult conversation

• At least don’t judge or ask silly questions

• Amber had some good experiences of help from individuals

• Jessica has not seen adoption preached

• Christians helped Jessica to make the adoption process happen through donations

• Now attends a pro-adoption church

47:21 – Is the state still involved in private adoptions?

• Yes, there is paperwork and administrative processes

• Even privately there is a mountain of paperwork

• In Darren’s experience fostering through the state was easier

• But the state is involved to an intimate degree though

52:30 – What can individuals do to help families with adopted children?

• Jessica:

• Voice your support for families with adopted or fostered children

•  Tell them if you are praying for them

• Don’t give useless advice

• Do give hand-me-downs

• Just show up and play with the kids or give adult conversations

• Show up to fundraisers and get the word out

• Amber:

• Think about what the kids go through, then consider adopting

• Do laundry, that would help

• Darren:

• Agrees with Jessica and Amber

• Consider adopting or fostering

• The children need Christians

• Take someone a meal when they take charge of their children

• Take the kids to the park for an hour

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Related Episodes

Related Blog Post

72. Christian Nationalism: Waging an Unholy War with Jay Newman

About this Episode

Jay Newman from Catacomb Podcasts joins Craig to discuss voting and Christian nationalism. Jay’s day job is pitmaster at Shotgun Willie’s Barbecue in Nashville, and he also runs his own barbecue catering service, Newman Family Barbecue. When he’s not transforming meat into award-winning tasty goodness, Jay bravely ventures into the culture wars on Twitter. While debating Christian nationalists and exposing their beliefs, he’s been accused of “reading too much evangelical pop theology” from those caught up in the military mindset of taking the reigns of power to expand the physical territories of the gospel.

Although George Bush was blasted for using the term “crusade” in the early 2000s, Christians are arming themselves for the new crusades and crying out for “jihads for Jesus”. This is the natural progression of Christian nationalism and does not look like what Jesus wants from His followers. Jesus was a pacifist and not interested in using the mechanics of state power to achieve the bringing of His Kingdom. When He came to earth, Jesus rejected the opportunity to reign over earthly kingdoms and allowed His enemies to kill Him. 

The early church understood this and were also anti-state pacifists. Even after the church and state became friends with Constantine, attempting to grab state power has never worked well for Christians. Jay would prefer Christians leave state control to non-Christians. In truth, any Christian who tries to exercise power antithetical to the Kingdom will have to deal with their inherent hypocrisy.

Connect with Jay:

Instagram: Newman Family BBQ

Podcast: Catacomb Podcasts

Episode Timestamps:

2:48 – Who is Jay Newman?

• BBQ Pit Manager

• Transforming meat into beautiful goodness

• Thinker and Writer

• Contrarian

• Doubting and testing new ideas

• Multi-cultural ties

• Brazilian and French family members

• Pastor’s kid

• Parents appalled by the merging of church and state

• No party loyalty

• Felt lied to by Bush after 9/11

• Learnt what politics does to people watching Mike Hukabee

• He drastically changed

• Became more Republican than Christian

• He sold out

• Ron Paul 2012

• Realized the whole thing is rigged

13:50 - Are you morally culpable for who you vote for? 

• People sanitize their favourite candidates 

• Society seems to have accepted that you are morally culpable for the actions of your candidates

• No nuance in liking some, but not all of a candidate’s policies

• All politicians commit atrocities

• Drones

• Aiding the rich and oppressing the poor

• None are consistent with Jesus

• Then who can we vote for?

• What power is there in voting?

• Maybe its time that all Christians stopped being a voting block

• Politicians would stop quoting scripture

• Politicians would stop pretending to care about Christian things

• Anarchy and Christian anarchy are separate issues

16:50 – Is voting a sin?

• Craig says yes

• If rejecting God is not a sin, then what is?

• The early church’s response to the Roman Empire

• Jay won’t judge others

• Sin comes from an individual’s intentions

• One can vote with a clean conscience

• Through being detached from outcomes

• Daniel was not removed from the state where he lived

• Christians should have a loud opinion on the state’s injustices

• Life in society means you have some influence

• Political influence is a part of that

• Jay leaves room for those who believe that working in the state is where God wants them

• It will probably corrupt them

• Historically it typically goes bad

• Why risk it?

• Perhaps people need to figure it out on their own

• Craig can’t force people into believing the same as himself

• People become more entrenched in their places if forced

• We’ve been electing Christians since the founding of the US

• Things are still getting progressively worse

• The country is an Idiocracy

• The upside of Trump being elected is it exposes the cultural Christians

• Baptist church choir “Make America Great Again”

• Nationalism was a sin of Israel

• Christians advocate repeating Israel’s folly

• Christians call themselves “Christian Nationalists”

• Christians should repent of putting people in power 

• America has killed a holocaust of people

• Killed children in Yemen

32:41 – Are we Americans or Christians first?

• Who is the biggest enemy of Americans?

• The biggest threat is the American government

• The largest church growth is happening in Iran, China and Russia

• The interests of the American state are opposed to the Kingdom

• Christians are thriving in places of persecution

• Christians should be more loyal to the church family than their national goals

• The US is sanctioning them, making life harder for Christians

• The populations of those nations are not our enemies

• We should be pro Christians in other states more than our national borders

36:06 – Jesus was not a statist

• Jesus was a snark

• All anarchists are snarks

• The leaders tried to trap Him 

• Everything belongs to God

• Pay your taxes to be a good citizen

• Trust God for financial provision

• It’s good for the gospel

• Don’t make decisions out of fear of lack of resources

• When you need money, He will give it to you

• When you put your trust in Him

• Jesus was passive-aggressive towards the state

• He turned down ruling the state when the devil offered it

• Why would Christians want to try it?

44:13 – Twitter conversations

• A pastor once said: “Start taking hills for Christ”

• Military terminology

• Jay’s response: “You take hills by dying; that’s what Jesus did”

• Jesus came to bring peace to the world

• The opposite of military actions

• Christians seem nervous about what would happen if Christians wielded power

• More than infidels, pagans and demons having political power

• Defending the crusades and name calling

• The early church were all pacifists and anti-state

55:39 – Spiritual warfare versus worldly warfare

• Jay sang on hills in India that had never heard the praises of God

• That’s how to take hills for Christ in the spiritual realm

• Not with military might, not physical territory

• Nations are a group of people with a common cause

• Christian nationalists want control of the state for Christians

• This has never worked before

• People agree with “jihad for Jesus”

• People want to take physical territory for Christ

• And enemy nations

• Christians arming themselves for the next crusades

• This is the logical conclusion for Christian nationalism

• We should be considering ourselves exiles rather than citizens

• The political system doesn’t give us a real say

• If Jesus was alive today, who would he vote for?

• Kings don’t vote

---

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71. Agorism is Practical Anarchy with Lily Forester

About this Episode

Lily Forester, of HBO’s “The Anarchists” documentary series fame, joins Craig to discuss freedom, anarchism, and agorism. Lily is a trailblazer of agorist activity, putting anarchist and agorist ideas into action in her own life.  She was a part of the Fireweed Universe City anarchist community in Detroit until her and her boyfriend John moved to Mexico and joined the Anarchapulco community. She ran a restaurant and farm from her house until John was killed in a shooting. These days she keeps herself busy training in circus arts, crocheting custom orders, blogging, building websites, and working with Anarchapulco and Anarchoforko.  

Craig and Lily discuss their frustrations with self-proclaimed anarchists who don’t act like anarchists. Both the ones that go back to the Libertarian Party to try to work through the state and the ones who abuse the title, complicating explanations of anarchist philosophy. Craig and Lily define the term agorist and discuss where it overlaps with anarchist as well as the differences. Where anarchists may shy away agorists tend to follow through on anarchist activities. They are the ones asking themselves how far they are willing to go and using their skills to build healthy communities of voluntary exchanges. Lily gives some advice on becoming an agorist, how to find an agorist community and using crypto-currency.

Where to find Lily:

• Website

• TikTok

• Instagram

• Personal Facebook

• Highly Functional Growth Community Facebook

Episode Timestamps:

5:15 – Who is Lily Forester?

• Girl with a fake name

  • Arrested for cannabis related stuff in Ohio

• Raised by agorists: practical anarchists

  • Mother was actively a fugitive in Ohio

• On the fringe of the Anarchapulco community

• Started Anarchoforko

• Had a restaurant and farm at her house

• Boyfriend murdered in 2019

• Trains in circus arts

• Features in “The Anarchists” documentary

7:58 – Frustrated with anarchists

• Why do anarchists go back to working with libertarian parties?

  • Anarchists should be principled

    • When they aren’t, Craig is disappointed

    • This drew him to Lily’s words in The Anarchists

  • Anarchapulco in The Anarchists seemed to be all about partying

• Shed the term anarchist for agorist

• Fireweed Universe-City in Detroit is the most truly anarchist community Lily has lived in

  • Fixing abandoned houses

  • Growing food

  • Community garden

• Agorists are practicing anarchy

  • Changing their lives

  • Unlicensed businesses

• Winters in Detroit were hard, so Anarchapulco was appealing

• Anarchists don’t all live their stated philosophy

  • When times get hard, some go back to the state

    • Or run for President

  • Some use the label to treat people poorly

    • “Don’t tell me what to do, I’m an anarchist.”

    • Manipulating people

• Anarchists that believe the ideas and try to practice have overlap with agorists

  • They will face hardship

18:04 – Anarchists paying taxes

• Anarchists do not “pay taxes” they are forcefully taken

  • It’s self-defence

  • It’s not voluntary

  • No one wants to live in a cage

• Anarchists who run for office are not anarchists

• Elections are like the movie “Groundhog Day”

• Lily campaigned for Ron Paul

  • Became an anarchist after he failed

  • Craig was booing him off stage 

• It’s hard to take anarchists seriously when they discus changing laws or using the libertarian party

• What Donald Trump calls anarchy is not anarchy

• Explaining the actions of some self-proclaimed anarchists is not easy

  • Complicates explanations of anarchy

• Agorists tend to shy away from calling themselves anarchists for this reason

• Agorists build healthy communities through:

  • Using their skills

  • Voluntary interactions

• Agorists need to ask themselves:

  • What laws are they willing to break?

  • How far are they willing to test the IRS?

• Anarchists say stop paying taxes and don’t vote

  • Don’t always follow-up

• The mark of a good community is how they respond to crisis

  • When John was killed agorists were there for Lily

  • Anarchopulco failed

    • They were a bunch of broken people calling themselves anarchists

    • They couldn’t get along with each other

  • When the police were called they took everything from Lily

    • Her dogs

    • Solar panels

    • Vehicles

  • In the US police conduct “Asset Forfeiture” and do the same

• Barry Cooper ex-cop fled the US and founded NeverGetBusted

• Anarchists are suspicious of police officers

  • Craig had an ex-officer on the show

  • They protect politician’s laws

33:04 – How to become an agorist

• Replace goods and services with people who are agorists

  • Directory: https://www.agoristnexus.com/

• Do what makes you happy, produce things

  • Accept payments in crypto currency

• Buy from people who are building the counterculture

• Cryptocurrency

  • Monero

  • Find ways to transact without having to turn it into fiat currencies

  • A tool to send and receive money that may hide your identity

  • Behaves like a regular market with booms and busts

  • Is unregulatable

    • Decentralised and worldwide

  • A stepping stone to seeing the state collapse

  • The IRS can’t see it

  • Buying and selling services with agorists

  • Crypto wallets are untraceable with a VPN

  • Some businesses accept it

  • There is a whole community building and using it

44:56 – Spirituality

• Psychedelics have been a part of Lily’s journey

• Prayer works

• No face or name or doctrine or worship

  • There is something out there who helps good people

  • People personify the unexplainable

  • Something is keeping Lily out of jail

• The world is not completely random

• Human Design

  • Focus on being good people

  • Doing things in ways that use your best modes

  • Makes life easier

• A taro reading suggested a female lawyer would help and then one contacted her

• Jesus said to love your neighbor and love your enemy

• Lily got involved with Anarchopulco and they went from enemy to friend

  • Building what she wants to see

  • Now there are more people from various religious camps now

  • No more drunken parties, like in the past

  • Bringing people together who are actually doing stuff

  • More families, chill people, and business people come now

55:37 – Food

• Lily’s guac recipe

• Mexican guac is just avocado, cilantro, white onion, jalapeno, salt, and lime

  • Tastes cheesy

• Texans believe beans don’t belong in chili

• White people are the worst

• Hot dogs go on every food in Acapulco

1:02:35 – Close the interview

• Anti-Politics – Sal Mayweather

• Highlyfunctionalgrowth.com

---

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69. From angry An-Cap to peaceful Christian with John Krueger

About this Episode

Craig is joined by John Krueger for a conversation about his journey from being an angry Anarcho-Capitalist to a peaceful Anarcho-Christian. Unjust police killings, SWAT raids gone wrong and harsh lockdowns made John angry. He was eager to learn how to use a gun and imagined himself needing to protect his family from police violence. In the midst of this, the Holy Spirit met John and showed him a peaceful option.

Libertarian philosophy is peaceful, but we need Jesus and His word to have the whole picture. Craig and John advocate for Christian pacifism and examine what was going on in their hearts at the points when they both contemplated joining the military. Craig and John discuss the libertarian and Christian anarchist positions on the decriminalization of drugs, the real needs of terrorists, the US at war, gun control, and other contentious current issues.

The state is coercion and violence. Laws are enforced with fines that are begrudgingly paid to avoid the threat of violence or time spent in a cage. You cannot make people peaceful like this, using the state’s methods. But rather, we need to be those who allow the Holy Spirit to work in us to change the hearts and minds of those surrounding us; that is how social change works in the Kingdom. Let’s listen to Jesus and do things His way, forsaking violence and anger. Let’s work towards peace.

Connect with John Krueger on

• Practical Christology

• TikTok

Episode Timestamps:

1:27 – Who is John Krueger?

• From Columbus, Ohio

  • Grew up attending church

• 1 Corinthians 5:9-13 stood out

  • Paul writes about grace

• Journey to anarchism

  • Read Blue Like Jazz

    • Jesus was not a republican or a conservative

    • Became politically independent

  • Eventually considered voting

    • Began researching libertarianism

      • Clicked with his understanding of the Grace of God

  • Took a few more years to become an anarcho-capitalist

8:58 – Libertarians, drugs, and terrorists

• It’s easy to understand decriminalizing marijuana 

• Harder to understand decriminalizing heroin use

  • People shouldn’t be locked in a cage for it

  • People should be free to make their own choices

    • Provided they aren’t hurting others

• Osama Bin Laden needed Jesus

  • Not bombs

  • We can’t bomb people into peace

    • If we bomb all sinners, there will be no one left

• John and Craig let go of the war stuff last

  • The history of the Middle East is important

  • The US is still at war

    • More people are mad at the US for continuously bombing them

• Jesus said in His Kingdom:

  • You rule by washing feet

    • Only pagans lord it over their subjects

  • But instead, our “Christian Nation” goes to war

    • To spread democracy

• We don’t need the government for roads

• We don’t need police

• Losing friends because of speaking out about:

  • Getting troops home

  • Veteran suicides

  • Broken men and families

  • Sending the poor to fight a rich man’s war

20:11 – Craig and John considered joining the military

• Craig wanted to kill people out of anger after 911

  • Application rejected

    • 4 pounds over the weight limit

• John wanted to join the military because he felt powerless

  • Wanted to be great in battle - like David

  • Experienced God’s compassion for those killed on both sides

• Christians still justify war and killing

  • Jesus said when you have seen me, you have seen the Father

  • There is nothing about Jesus’ life that says you can kill in war

• Pacifism is the way for Christians

  • Craig still gets a hard time from Christians for his pacifist stance

  • The early church was 100% pacifist

    • Even to their own deaths

  • Jesus healed the Roman soldier and admonished Peter

    • When Jesus disarmed Peter, he disarmed every Christian

26:24 – Libertarians and Gun Control

• After shootings those on the left talk about taking away guns

• But guns will be taken away by force

  • Giving more power to the state

• Need to study history

• We don’t advocate for gun control

  • It’s enforced by violence

  • We should bear God’s peace instead

• The left sees calls to reduce state size as calls to let people starve

• John does not own guns, 

  • Only advocates for less government action

• We don’t use the state for any reason

• The same people who take guns away are those who shoot unarmed black men

• Fines are enforced through the threat of violence

• The ‘hero’ who ended the life of a would-be shooter still ended a life

• Jesus would not be training churches to enact violence

• We are here to bring the gospel to people

37:10 – From angry An-Cap to peaceful Christian Anarchist

• When John was an An-Cap he was angry at the state

  • Police killings made him angry

  • Made him want to get into guns

• Angry at government shutdowns because of shutdowns

• Holy Spirit showed him it would be better to defy the government in peaceful ways

  • Sneakily helping people

  • Blessing those who curse

  • Not needing to worry about what to say in front of judges

• Libertarians are never happy with the government

  • No matter who is in power they are stuffing everything up

  • Anger is not the fruit of the spirit

• Romans 11-14 need to be read together

  • Our heart position should be peaceful

• Libertarians need Jesus to have the full picture

42:48 – Romans 13 and libertarianism

• “Submit” and “obey” are not the same

  • When Christians get it wrong: 

    • They end up supporting government atrocities

    • Lives will be ruined

    • The state becomes an idol

• The early church withheld communion from people who worked for the state

  • Unless people were already soldiers

    • And had sworn off killing or oppressing people

    • None wore their weapons

    • All were to serve

• Getting Christians into power will not help

  • It is no longer Christianity

• The power is the wrong power

  • The Holy Spirit is the only power we need

  • Political power is force

  • Christians do not need to take the ”Seven Mountains” of power

  • These do not sound like Jesus

• Polycarp would not denounce Jesus

  • In the face of his own death

  • King Jesus has never done me any harm

• Everything that the state does harms somebody in some fashion

  • If they are helping you, they are harming someone else

  • The state is not a protector

• Jesus Christ is the only King

  • He wants the best for us

54:12 – How should we pray for government?

• We should pray for government and leaders

  • Craig prays for the state to end

  • The current chaos is caused by the state

  • We need to follow Jesus and walk away

  • John prays for leadership to know the gospel

    • Not the American folklore

    • But the true gospel

• Craig will take the words of the early church fathers over pastors

  • When modern pastors disagree with the early church

  • They still screwed things up

  • They aren’t Jesus

  • They were closer in time to Jesus

  • We need to get back to that

    • What we are doing now as the church is not working

• The Reformers had a blind spot when it came to the church

  • They killed people

• The Anabaptists became the Mennonites and Amish

  • They were peaceful

• Catholics are going back to mysticism

  • The church fathers and grace teachings

1:02:54 – Let’s bring it back to Jesus

• Listen to Jesus

  • Love your neighbor

  • Love your enemy

  • Love God

• It’s impossible to follow His teachings

  • But we should try:

    • Working towards good

    • Not working toward violence

    • Not working towards anger or hate

    • Working towards peace

---

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67. What do gambling and voting have in common? with Paul Varkey

About this Episode

Craig is joined by Paul Parayil for his first-ever podcast appearance. Through his prolific and provocative writings, Paul advocates for liberty, truth, honesty, and the Kingdom of God. His blog and Facebook posts have garnered quite a following. In this episode, they discuss Paul's article, "Do you believe Gambling is a vice? I don't think you do". In the article, Paul grabs the attention of the evangelical right audience and shows how Christians engage in high-stakes gambling on something worse than cards. Fear produces voting, but just like casino gambling, the house (or the state) always wins.

When the church condones the state's violence, it fails to align with people's consciences, becoming a stumbling block. However, the church will find itself more attractive when Christians promote Jesus's basic teachings of self-governance and doing no harm. We use the term Christian Anarchist because a core component of Christianity has been lost. Instead, that which should be an obvious and natural occurrence in the church must be emphasized. Anarchy is implied, and the entire gospel message is summed up in one sentence: No King but Christ. 

Since the beginning of the church, we have had one King. Jesus never sought political office! It is morally inconsistent of us to believe we have the right to coerce our neighbors with political power gained through participation in state activities, be they politics or voting. We are more consistent with Jesus's actions when we serve from the fringes of society with love and charity. The beginning of the healing of this world is through peacefully walking away from the gamble that is voting.

Paul's social media: 

• FB Page: https://www.facebook.com/paul.varkey , 

• Hive blog

Episode Timestamps:

1:15 Introduce Paul

• Enjoys writing 

  • Initially, to clarify his own thoughts

  • Found others enjoy thinking outside the box and reading his writings

• Often interacting in various Christian Anarchist circles

• Family originally from India 

  • A family of practicing Christians 

  • When Paul was three, his parents immigrated to the Middle East (Saudi Arabia) and lived there until he graduated from high school

  • Christmas holidays were spent visiting family in India

• Education

  • Graduated high school in Saudi Arabia

  • Went back to India for college

  • Moved to the US as a graduate student in 2004

  • Moved to California to work as a software engineer in 2011

  • Been working in Tech since then

5:45 How did Paul come to Christian anarchy?

• Brought up as Christians in Saudi Arabia.

• Moved to Chicago at 21 years old

  • Began thinking about politics

  • Knew he was pro-life because it's a matter that evangelicals care about

  • Became a republican quickly

• Knew that his support for GOP was tribalism  

• Heard of Ron Paul and what he had to say about:

  • The Fed

  • The Military-Industrial Complex, https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/social-sciences/military-industrial-complex 

  • Regulatory capture of the big corporations

• Provoked into considering the logical inconsistency of his own beliefs 

  • Began looking into political libertarianism

  • Kicked and screamed for a few years into anarchy 

• Was not aware of Christian anarchism 

  • A closet Christian Anarchist 

  • No one to fellowship with

  • Craig also had a similar experience until he came across the Anarcho Christian Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/groups/645893438920507 

10:15 What is Christian Anarchism?

• The early church were anarchists 

  • Including Jesus 

• No title; the word didn't exist

  • But they practiced it

  • It was an obvious part of being a Christian

    • Do you tell people that you are a "virgin birthist"? 

    • There's no need to specify because most Christians believe in it

    • So it was with Christian anarchy in the early church 

  • A core message has been lost of how the kingdom of God works with nations here

• We've lost an essential message of the gospel, so we must use the label to emphasize it

• It's okay to disagree with others

  • Secular anarchists

  • Or even Paul of Tarsus

• It's more important to follow Jesus than anarchy

15:35 No King But Christ 

• Essentially communicates the whole gospel message 

  • While implying anarchy

• How are secular anarchists preaching better moral truths than the church? 

• Anarcho Christian Facebook group:

  • Don't all agree on Christian doctrines

  • They at least agree on the anarchist outlook

• More people seem to be latching onto anarchy

  • Self-rule

  • Do no harm

  • Don't take my things

  • Follow the basic teachings of Christ

• Voluntaryism doesn't trigger Christian minds to think of chaos.

• In the right-leaning "Christian" culture, there is an identification of patriotism and nationalism as the proper practicing of faith

20:30 Paul pokes the bear to make people think.

• The biggest tragedies of the church: 

  • We lost the concept of No King But Christ 

  • Colluding with the state

  • In both the Eastern Christian and Western church circles

  • We have compromised our values

22:46 Read Paul’s Article: "Do you believe Gambling is a vice? I don't think you do."

• Grabbing the attention of the evangelical right

  • It's addressed to people who think gambling is a vice or sin

• There is a loser in gambling

  • There is also a winner; it's always the house

• In the casino, most of the participants frequently lose

  • Some participants win big, keeping people hooked

  • The only one who wins is the house.

• Gambling is a vice because you produce no real wealth, 

  • One of us is poorer based on luck

  • There is nothing godly about this

• There is something far worse than gambling 

  • Christians engage in it regularly 

  • This form of gambling has a house, and the house always wins.

• When you vote, you wager your own life and liberties and securities.

  • Cannot recover lost freedoms back from the state through voting

  • You legitimize the beast through voting

29:05 What is voting?

• The state says, "Come along. All of you will lose some liberties, but some of you will have the chance to have less of your liberties taken."

• Fear takes over when people vote

• There are more than two people to choose from

31: 48 What is the state?

• Takes people's liberties

• Has never once shrunk

  • States grow or collapse.

• Taking the chance and succumbing to fear keeps the house growing

  • Yet people vote for candidates they don't like

• The idea of your "civic duties" being to vote is ridiculous

• "Go vote" is a religious mantra

• It doesn't matter to the elites who wins

  • The aura of the legitimacy of the beast improves when people show up to vote

  • Republicans are Democrats 2.0

  • Don't put others in power over your neighbours

36:00 God alone gives liberty 

• Jesus sets us free, not the US

  • There may be some good outcomes from voting

    • God makes good come from evil

• Paul's moral analysis of voting is the reason he doesn't

  • I don't have the right to dominate my neighbour

    • No coercing them to behave the way I want

    • Unlikely to bring more liberty

    • It's still a gamble

• Anarchists joining libertarian parties promote the state

39.00 Why don't Christians just walk away?

• One solution to the problems of government

  • Peacefully walk away

  • Christians should know this and opt out

• The empire is falling and we already have a King

  • Power will corrupt

  • You will lose while growing the state

• If someone is addicted to any addictive substance, they cannot go cold turkey

  • Voting gives a dopamine hit

  • If you feel the need to vote, at least vote for a third party

  • Take other political actions 

• The Libertarian parties will never take over the state

  • Their message is good

• Paul does more good outside of political processes 

  • Being morally consistent with his beliefs

• If anyone was going to change the US system, it would have been Ron Paul

  • You cannot change the mafia from the inside 

  • The point of the mafia is to be the mafia

  • Ron Paul changed awakened people https://www.thefamouspeople.com/profiles/ron-paul-5118.php 

• Voting is a risk; why not simply obey Jesus Christ?

• When Satan tempted Jesus with authority, He didn't rebuke Satan, telling him that the authority was not his to give. Instead, He said, "No, I'm good." https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%204%3A1-11&version=NIV 

• Likewise, Christians should say, "No, I'm good." 

  • rather than seek power

  • Seek Jesus as our King

• The early church writings show:

  • They had no interest in the Roman Empire 

  • Tertullian called the affairs of the state foreign https://quotepark.com/authors/tertullian/quotes-about-the-world/

  • The kingdom of God is a literal Kingdom

  • Their King did not use a sword against Caesar and Pilot 

  • They expanded the kingdom through love, charity, and service

  • From outside the system

• Christians can enrich anarchism with the teachings of Christ

---

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68. Tyrants be Gone with Duncan Palmer

About this Episode

The Kingdom of God is at hand! Duncan Palmer joins Craig for a discussion of what the Good News entails and a key point that Christians are missing today: The Kingdom of God is here and now. Poor Bible translations go all the way back to Augustine, leading God’s people into confusion about their purpose. For example, ‘ecclesia’ is often rendered ‘church’ in modern translations, whereas a better translation refers to a gathering or assembly of people who managed the local city. The only God-ordained governance structure is the ecclesia, which happens when the church willingly submits to servant leadership and God’s laws alone. 

Craig and Duncan discuss the historical points where the church went wrong, then turn to Duncan’s article “Tyrants be Gone: Say Hello to the New Boss”. There are no good guys in the fiefdoms of Satan; even your favorite candidate is nothing more than a tinpot tyrant playing with authority that does not belong to him. No human being is given authority to rule over another. Therefore, instead of participating in politics, Christians are to opt out, declare independence, and make worldly governments obsolete. When we do, we will usher in the Kingdom of God. We need to be creating things of value helping and encouraging each other, and trading amongst ourselves. Jesus invites us to live freely in this voluntary society. He welcomes us into the Kingdom of God! This is the missing part of the Good News!

Duncan’s article

Duncan’s Hive Blog Articles

Episode Timestamps:

2:25 – Introduce Duncan’s article

• Well shared in the discussion group

• Written so that people can get a glimpse of what the good news really is

3:33 – Who is Duncan Palmer?

• Grew up in America in the 50s and 60s

  • Heard that America was the freest country in the world

  • Republican family background

• Supported Ron Paul when he ran for office

• In the 90s, Duncan realised he was being extorted for tax money

  • Not as free as he thought

  • Taxation is a fraudulent system

• Learned from Larken Rose

  • Book: The Most Dangerous Superstition

  • Podcast: Outside the Cage

  • Not a believer but has a lot to say to Christians about neighbourly love and oppression

7: 11 – The importance of language

• Duncan uses the label anarchist

• Bad Bible translations are of the devil

• The Bible is misquoted, mistranslated, and misread

• Get back to the basic teachings of Christ

• Duncan’s definition of anarchist:

  • No human rulers  

  • God is the only legitimate ruler

  • He is a benevolent ruler

  • A Christ-archist or Thearchist

• The enemy has taken the term ‘anarchist’ and perverted its definition

  • It doesn’t mean bomb throwing radicals out to destroy everything

  • Words ought to be our servants, not the other way around

• Voluntaryist

  • The Kingdom of God is based on voluntary interactions

    • Radically different from the kingdoms of the world

  • The ‘kings’ of this world have no legitimate authority

• The early church lived in a voluntary society

  • Anarchism and Christianity should be synonymous 

14:16 – The church is in bed with the state

• Learning the history of the church

• Craig has become fascinated by church history

  • Prior to Constantine

  • This is how the church should behave today too

  • They had their own disagreements

  • Universally recognized Jesus as King

  • Tertullian believed in Eternal Conscious Torment

  • Tertullian was vocal about the state

  • Some of the early church writers were taught directly by the apostles

    • Polycarp

    • The church has gone in the opposite direction of these writings

• Ecclesia – The gathering of people who managed the local city

• Duncan is reading through the New Testament in Greek

  • Trying to get the whole picture

  • Major points:

    • Ecclesia – church is a poor translation

    • Gathering, assembly or congregation might be better options

    • The church should guide the local population rather than the worldly institutions

• David Bently Hart

  • New Greek New Testament Translation of the Bible

  • Augustine translated the Bible from Latin not Greek

  • There are differences that change the meaning of the text

  • Mistranslations are being taught in the church

• 1 Corinthians 1:26 – Not too many bright believers verse

• The Curmudgeons Bible Library

  • Complaints about poor Bible translations

22:20 – How Duncan became a Christian Anarchist

• The state lies to everyone and imposing an illegal income tax

• The Law – Frederic Bastiat

  • Recommended reading

  • Very thin

  • Made Duncan realise that the only law that we should respect is God’s law

    • More than 400 instances of the word ‘law’ in the Bible maybe only a dozen of them reference human made laws.

    • Man-made laws are always spoken of with disdain

    • Romans 13:1 refers to God’s law not human mandates

• Christians are afraid of the other team, so they resort to using the state

26:52 - The church has gone wrong at a few historical points:

• Constantine co-opted the church

  • The church is to replace and obviate the rule of Satan on earth

•  Replacing the commandments of God with the traditions of men

  • During the Reformation

    • The Reformation did not go far enough

    • Reformers divided the world into ecclesiastical governments and civil government

    • A better distinction is the Kingdom of God and Fiefdoms of Satan

    • Civil government is seen as legitimate and desirable

    • Throughout scripture those structures are Satan’s government systems

    • Evil and influenced by demons

    • The church should be separate from those structures 

    • Jesus refused the authority that Satan tempted him with

    • The early church recognised this

• The Empire of the United States is crumbling

  • Current trajectory is unsustainable

  • Christians need to be ready for this

  • It is going to be chaotic and scary

  • If we follow Jesus everything will be fine

  • Secular anarchists could learn from Christians

  • It’s too exhausting to keep wasting time arguing about going back to the Mises Caucus

32:02 - The church should act as God’s new governance structure

• The Bible is a handbook for governance

• The only authority God grants the church is directly going to our brother, or bringing others into an argument or bringing conflicts before the whole ecclesia from where they may be ejected

• There is nowhere left to go when looking for somewhere where liberty can be found

• Seasteading: the idea that people could build communities out in the ocean

  • Out of the fiefdoms of Satan

  • We are supposed to be denying territorial jurisdictions

  • We are to be a Holy nation from every tribe and nation

  • Our common ruler Jesus is to be our common ground

• The good news of the Kingdom has been abandoned

  • John and Jesus preached it

  • There’s a new boss in town

  • We need to take power and authority to deny the tyrants around us

37:34 – Tyrant be Gone. Say hello to the New Boss

• The church is misunderstood

  • What we have now is not what was supposed to be

• There’s a new boss in town

• We’ve done a marginal job of letting people know who King Jesus is

  • We’ve misdirected everyone sitting in pews into worshipping the state

    • Romans 13 is mistranslated

    • Use as a bludgeon on the head of believers

    • Teaching to do everything as the government says to do it

  • Let every soul be subject to the highest authorities, namely God and His Word

    • The only true authority

• The government will be upon His shoulders

  • Is Afghanistan or China upheld by Jesus?

  • Christians seem to think that America is the good guy

    • Patently not true given all the overseas deaths caused by foreign policy

41:53 – There are no good guys at all in the fiefdoms of Satan

• The sooner the church realises that Jesus is in the process of destroying those fiefdoms the better

• The right number of Christians in office won’t make things better

• George W Bush said God wanted him to run for office

  • 9 months later the never-ending war began

• Ambassadors do not participate in government

  • We are to be God’s ambassadors

• The missing part of the good news of the Kingdom of God

  • The church pushes news of the Kingdom into some distant future

  • Whereas it should be here and now

• America is not your friend

  • America is not a saviour

  • It is destruction

46:34 - Aren’t you sick and tired of tyrants?

• Even your favourite candidate is a tyrant

• Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results

• People are scared of the Democrats or Republicans

  • So, they put libertarians in office

  • They are still putting someone in power over their brothers and sisters

    • Jesus didn’t say to do that

    • You see how the gentiles lord it over them? It should not be so among you

• Satan likes to divide and conquer

  • Splitting people into camps to do battle with each other

• The only power they have is to rob, hurt and enslave

• God has not ordained or authorised the state to do that

  • This is a lie from the deepest pit of hell

  • Backed by demons

  • Christians need to walk away and follow Jesus

• In light of Romans 13 how do you read Acts 5?

  • There are two different definitions of submission and obedience

  • There are a lot of poorly understood words

• The Bible calls for leadership that we voluntarily follow rather than dictatorships

  • The only legitimate rules are God’s laws

    • These rules are written on our hearts

    • Respect the scriptures, but don’t slavishly check every move we make

    • Follow Jesus’ law of love

• The calling as the assembly is to step out of the world, voluntarily submit to servant leadership in the church

• We are not to participate in the failed kingdoms of this world

  • Even the US is based on satanic principles

  • Instead become a decentralized replacement governance system

  • Acknowledge King Jesus and deny allegiance to any other jurisdiction

• People are not understanding this

• How do we make people see that the state is evil, and we should abstain from it?

• Comparison chart that shows principles that the state runs on versus what the ecclesia should be running on.

• Libertarian philosophy states we should not initiate violence

  • The state runs on violence

  • Violence in defence might have legitimate value

    • When providing for one’s own household

• No human being or group have legitimate rights to rule over other humans

  • Satan said in his heart that he would be like God

    • Ruling over people

    • Taking the place of God

  • People may rule over creation, but never other human beings

    • Only Jesus holds this right as creator

  • The state is committing the same crime as Satan

    • Asserting that they have the right to arbitrarily dictate to us what we must do

55:06 – Implementing God’s Kingdom

• Entering God’s Kingdom means we leave the kingdoms of the world

  • Leave them in the dustbin

  • Establish something superior

  • Make them obsolete

  • This is what it means to seek first the Kingdom of God

• Humanity will be drawn towards their true King when we do this

• Opt out of the state

  • And everything else will be added to you

• The church seems to have missed this important part of the good news the Kingdom of God

• The assembly needs to stop viewing the assembly as purely spiritual

  • Ecclesia is not a spiritual social club

• We need to be God’s Kingdom in this world

  • We need to be creators in this world

    • We reflect God when we create things of value

• We need to encourage each other through our occupations

• We need to help one another provide for our families

• Trade with one another

  • We need solid ‘weights and measures’ like Bitcoin

  • We need our own economic system

  • We need to encourage each other’s endeavours, such as the Bad Roman Project

    • Helping to expand God’s Kingdom in the world

• We need to encourage each other’s development in writing and the arts

  • We need to do these in the name of God

  • We need to help each other

• There is no church/state separation where churches are 501 C3 corporations

  • The church becomes subservient to Satan himself

• We need to declare our independence

  • Shelter our members from taxation and state depravations

• We need to be encouraging entrepreneurism 

  • Establishing enterprises

  • Bringing wealth into the Kingdom

    • Use the wealth to advance God’s Kingdom

• We need to declare independence from territorial jurisdiction

• Covid made it clear that the state is out to shut the church down

  • We need to push back

• We need more Christian podcasters flooding the arena with this

• Jesus’ generous offer is still available to us

  • Let those who are thirsty come

  • Take the water of life without cost

1:02:37 – 1 Timothy 6: 11-17

• Paul says to Timothy:

  • Pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love and steadfastness

  • He ties that good confession in with Jesus

• Jesus confessed before Pontius Pilate that His Kingdom is not of this world

• Jesus is the blessed and only sovereign, the King of Kings

• He dwells in unapproachable light

• He holds a branch of peace to His enemies

  • He hasn’t crushed them under His feet yet

• We need to be the assembly that draws people to Him

• Jesus says we can come and be a part of this voluntary society

  • We can live totally free

  • Jesus the only worthy ruler

  • He continues to bless us

• We just need to trust Jesus

• We have an eternity of God’s kindness to look forward to

  • And an entire universe to explore

  • A childlike wonder about the vastness of God and His creation

---

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66. To Vote or Not to Vote with Stephen of Anarcho-Christian

About this Episode

Stephen is from Anarcho-Christian, our brother-in-Christ podcast. He has spent the last 6 years providing an online presence and community for people like us. He has a way of expressing many viewpoints on a hotly debated topic, so we’ve invited him into our conversation on voting. 

Midterms are fast approaching. As people who serve only one King, we must consider whether we ought to participate in the kingship of others. Is it ever justifiable to participate in choosing laws and rulers for our neighbors? How involved should an anarchist really be in politics? How involved should a Christian be? Is there a difference? Listen for our take on these and other questions relating to the issue.

Episode Timestamps:

1:45 Unbiased

• Not like Fox news

  • “We report; you decide

    • (what we tell you because everything we put out is incredibly biased)”

• Debating this is good, but not on this episode

  • Discuss and let people reach their own conclusions

  • Easier said than done because of strong opinion

    • Christians should have nothing to do with voting

3:07 Facebook page disappeared

• Because they were getting too popular?

  • Facebook didn’t like their message

• Flagged unspecified memes

• No power or tools to fight back

  • Just had to wait

  • Found a workaround

• Bad Roman page is not allowed to boost posts

  • When Craig is drunk, he approves of Nate’s ornery memes

    • Then Craig gets in trouble with

      • Facebook

      • And the show producer

        • Can’t go too far with posts because losing Facebook means losing access to the majority of the fan base

• Don’t want to lose what so much work has gone into

• Having AnarchoChristian back on Facebook takes some of the heat off Bad Roman

8:14 Should anarchists vote?

• Is voting consistent with anarchist philosophy?

• Some people separate Christianity and anarchy

  • Others feel it’s entwined

  • Stephen came to anarchy by growing in his faith

• What’s the intent of voting?

• What are you voting on?

  • Is it federal or is it about your local library?

    • We don’t usually get to vote on community-level decisions

• Some anarchists wind up back in the libertarian party 

  • Saying they’re trying to get a message out

    • Seems inconsistent to be in politics

  • You can reach people within the party without joining the party

• Pulling out of politics almost feels like joining a monastery

  • Away from the evils of the world 

  • Never going back

  • Putting faith entirely on God 

    • Instead of faith in God plus worrying about whether the more evil guy wins the election

    • Good for mental health

• Defensive political action vs action to bring good

• Some people believe they can wield the power to bring about God’s Kingdom

• Maybe it’s a neutral decision

  • Maybe it’s okay to take political action

  • And maybe it’s just as okay not to

19:36 Should Christians get involved in politics?

• Should we peacefully protest everything?

• Even “setting people free” from the slavery of the current political system

  • Is slavery

    • Because they didn’t have a choice

• The motivation to vote is that our country is like a train

  • The 2 current parties are competing to send the train over the cliff faster

  • The libertarian party might at least be able to slow it down

  • Other people would rather let it crash and burn

    • We can rebuild better and faster

    • Why focus on something that is doomed?

    • “Empires fall; let it burn” - Craig

• Ron Paul actually did make a difference with his presidential campaign

  • He got involved to get a message out

  • Converted a good number of people to libertarianism

    • Directly and by starting a chain of influence

  • Got them involved with each other

  • Many have since converted to anarchism

  • Most normies will listen to a political candidate before a random dude’s libertarian podcast

• But he also proved that the mafia cannot be changed from the inside

  • Why should anarchists try to change it by voting or involvement when even the great Ron Paul failed?

  • The Republican party blocked him from succeeding

• At this point, 

  • People are frustrated with the government’s response to COVID-19

  • They see the immorality

  • They see the flaws of a 2-party system

  • Inflation is affecting them

  • If someone were to get up and speak to them from a political stage, they might move toward anarchy

29:26 Christian anarchy

• The early church was anarchist

  • So was Jesus

• The word ‘Christian’ has come to imply ‘anarchist’ to Craig

  • Because it’s obviously how we’re supposed to be

  • Voting for someone to rule over your neighbor is not justifiable

    • Jesus said Christians will not lord it over each other

    • We come to serve, not be served

• “As a Christian, what do you think is moral about going and trying to put somebody in power over your neighbor?” - Craig

• We have to understand that people don’t yet understand

  • They don’t grasp the monopoly on violence or voluntarism

  • They don’t speak our language or know what we’re referring to

• We must look at a person’s heart motive

  • Are they demanding a king to replace God?

    • Many Trump supporters are definitely putting their faith in their president

    • Republican is synonymous with Christian

    • People put way too much of their identity in politics 

      • And mix it with religion

  • If, in 1 Samuel, God says choosing a king is rejecting Me

    • Is voting for rulers now rejecting God?

    • Is it a sin to vote?

  • Is a person voting defensively or in an attempt to change the world for good?

    • Their focus would seem to not be on getting a king

• Defensive voting

  • Asking permission to not be taxed

  • Still gives the ruler power

• Empires fall

  • The US empire is going down

    • There’s no point in trying to save it

  • We’re creating money out of thin air, constantly increasing our debt

  • People get freaked out by outside forces coming to harm us

    • We’re already being harmed

• Inflation

  • Didn’t start with Biden

  • Trump pumped $2 trillion of fake money into our economy

  • People generally blame the government

    • But they don’t know what they’ve specifically done to cause the problem

    • It’s the printing of money without anything behind it

    • It’s taxes and tariffs

  • Propaganda

    • Inflation is good!

    • It’s all Putin’s fault!

    • Nobody could have seen this coming!

  • Anarchists are generally more aware of what is actually happening

• 2-party system

  • Taught, “We have to beat these guys cuz they’re the worst.”

    • Pick the lesser of 2 evils

  • People want to get someone perfect in who will 

    • Shut down the Department of Education or the CIA

    • Fulfill their dreams

    • Make everything better

    • The system will never allow them to win

  • Small changes have occurred

    • But nothing that will stop the train

• 50% of the country doesn’t vote

  • We’re halfway there!

  • People get nervous

    • If we stop, then our enemy will win the election

      • So, maybe if we all jump to the third party, we can beat them all

      • And maybe we can use the system to tackle local issues

• All politicians will lie or make exceptions at some point

  • Power corrupts

  • Even Ron Paul voted us into war

  • People might get into politics with good intentions

    • But when you’ve joined the mafia, you’re part of the mafia

    • Unrelated projects slipped into bills

  • Same with cops

    • Gotta make compromises to avoid getting fired

  • One could go in with the intent of causing a ruckus and not care about re-election

    • But it’s unlikely

    • And what kind of difference could it really make?

49:48 Roe v Wade and other big decisions

• So many people are celebrating

• It feels nefarious

• Government promises of good

  • Almost always have something bad attached

  • Even if it really is good for one group

    • It hurts someone else

    • Or hurts everyone in a different realm of life

• Printing money seems great

  • Until a year later when inflation skyrockets

53:26 Just keep following Jesus

• “Christ set us free, not the United States of America.” - Craig

• He has our best interest at heart

  • Guaranteed, the state does not

---

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61. Hope of the Kingdom: How God Wins with Jonathan Cannone

About this episode

Jonathan Cannone is a Jesus-follower, writer, homesteader, teacher, and Kingdom worker. He wrote an article for The Bad Roman blog, The Dream of the City to Come: Do You Not Trust God?, about the Kingdom coming, both now and in the unknown future. 

As Christians, we have hope. We are called to live and act peacefully, and doing this in all of our pursuits may help bring about the Kingdom to our own little corner of the world. Those in power now will not win in the end. God wins eternity. We have to remember this and take a long view of time, a God-view of time.

We know Who wins and we are on His side, all that is required of us is to continuously choose to remain on that side and not fall into the ways of this world and the false promises of man-made power and state-sanctioned violence.  We know the rules of our side, Jesus showed us and told us, and it is our job, as Christians to continuously submit to our faith in his message, even when we must sometimes must obey unjust powers in pursuit of Christ.

Take this episode as a message of encouragement: politicians may seem powerful, but Jesus is the true King. As a Christain you are an ambassador for Heaven, don’t forget to act like it!

Episode Timestamps:

4:10 The Dream of the City to Come: Do You Not Trust God?

• Based on a lifelong obsession with the idea that Jesus’ Kingdom is eternal, and everything else is temporary

  • When Jonathan was little, he loved Bible stories about the unchanging Kingdom

  • And he just taught 4 months of adult Sunday school on it

5:41 Handling [professing] Christians who just aren’t getting it

• To see change, we’ve gotta follow Christ

  • He is our King

• Others are still where we were a decade ago

  • Still clinging to hope in the government

• Do we get outwardly frustrated with them or handle them with velvet gloves?

  • Craig explodes and starts talking about Yemen

    • Gets blank stares

      • It may be coming on a little strong

    • But, “People are dying because of our belief in the state as Christians.” - Craig

  • The vast majority of people in the world claim Christianity

    • If they’d stop believing in the state and follow Jesus, the difference would be huge

• “About 10 years ago… I just completely surrendered my life to God and said, ‘You run things; I'm not good at it.’” - Jonathan

  • Before and after that point, people were dropping bread crumbs to get him where he is now

  • Humor and Scripture led him to understand

    • Also, a wise elder who was very excited about the Kingdom and not at all about the state

  • You don’t realize you’re being red-pilled at the time

  • It takes humility and gentleness to break through to doubters

9:05 It’s so obvious

• It’s so much in our faces that it feels like the media is mocking us

• But somehow, the guy next to us still doesn’t get it

• Craig’s coworker commented that they’re trying to get us into another war with Russia/Ukraine

  • So he had to tell him about the war we’re already in Yemen

    • The guy had to understand Trump’s role in it

      • And the lack of corporate media reporting

    • The guy’s eyes kind of glazed over, but his brain wheels were turning

      • Even if it’s unconscious, the seed gets planted

• There’s just so much information to give the normies, it’s hard to know where to start

  • So many different operations and people

    • Henry Kissinger

• People have already made up their minds how to live and will not deviate

  • Even if gas goes up to $8/gal, they’ll still buy it from the same place like they always have

  • We make choices based on what’s cheapest

    • The cost has already been paid somewhere else

  • “We’ve already made up our mind how we’re gonna live, and the narrative fills in the gaps for us so that it makes sense.” - Jonathan

  • The way we live is insane

    • What we do to the earth

    • What we do to third-world countries

    • What we do to ourselves

    • But we tell ourselves stories to help us sleep at night

• So, the goal is to share the Kingdom story

  • Have everyone marinate in it until it is our story

  • It will change people until they look at the way we live and say, “This is insane. Jesus would never do this.”

13:28 What if Jesus was walking around?

• Imagine 2000 years ago, He might have been walking around with His head in His hands lamenting how people were living

  • Perhaps even more so today

  • He’s shaking His head at us collectively and saying, “You’re not getting it.”

  • Does He get frustrated?

    • He saw the multitudes as sheep without a shepherd

      • And felt compassion

      • He didn’t ask why they were stupid or tell them to stop following Him around

    • We ought to follow His example and not be brash

      • Steven from AnarchoChristian is good at this

        • His show feels like Sunday school taught by an expert

16:33 Satan’s kingdom

• If Satan offered the earthly kingdoms to Jesus, that means he owns them

• People always argue, “If we get enough Christians in office, all will be fixed.”

  • No. Who’s behind this kingdom? 

    • Whose kingdom are you claiming to be part of?

      • You cannot serve both

    •  Is the person lying, stealing, destroying, murdering, and enslaving?

      • That’s not anything like what my King does

20:14 Jesus is King

• Even over those who don’t believe in Him

• Why don’t we take it seriously?

  • Americans don’t know what monarchy is like

    • Closest we have is CEOS, oligarchs, and generals

    • But we want a king

      • People talk about presidents like they should be kings

        • “They're not wanting a representative. They're wanting a king to tell their enemy how to live… [but] they end up telling you how to live too.” - Craig

      • “[Trump] would love to sit in your living room and tell you exactly how to live… I've got a King in my house. And guess what? You're a Christian. You've already got a King too.” - Craig

23:52 Prophets in the Church

• Very few Christians can see through the facade of how the world works 

  • They have the gift of prophecy

• Prophets are not well received; they are so tired of trying and not getting anywhere 

• Most have either

  • Shut their mouths or

  • Left the church

• Most Christians are genuine and trying

  • They can only do what they know to do

• So, to start a conversation, we must first find out where they’re at

25:26 Arguing about authority, aka power

• People always want to say that anyone with power got it from God

  • Which means they’re on His side

  • Might = right?

  • The winner of a political race has God’s blessing

• According to the Bible, power is not about winning

  • Jesus says to lose your life in order to find Life

  • Submission 

    • Paul says slaves need to submit to their masters

      • But of course, they do; they’re slaves! 

      • That’s their job

      • It’s like Paul is saying, “You are the one with the authority to live the way that your King shows you to live.” - Jonathan

      • When you voluntarily submit to someone, they don't win.

        • That relationship is broken and should not be that way

        • You're the one with the power

      • "Everybody knows that you’re not supposed to have slaves, but everybody thinks that is great to have kings." - Jonathan

      • It doesn't matter how many bombs they have

        • They don't win

28:31 Handcuffs

• Jesus promised they'll arrest us and bring us before kings

  • And He will fill our mouths with His words

• If you're in handcuffs, let God use you

  • Allow them to treat you poorly

• "[Submission] doesn't mean you're obeying; there's a reason you're in handcuffs." - Craig

  • Rosa Parks didn’t obey their laws

  • The early church likewise acted without violence

    • It changes people's hearts

      • People come to Christ when they see us respond peacefully

• People claim slavery is over

  • But right now is like an Oprah Winfrey moment

    • “YOU get to be a slave and YOU get to be a slave…”

  • We are all enslaved through taxes

• “Why are you going to put 'em back in power? You're complaining about 'em, they're stealing your money. They're taking that money and going and using it to kill people in other countries and kill people in this country. Stop voting. Stop encouraging the beast. Follow Jesus Christ. You say you're a Christian. Let's do it. Let's follow Jesus Christ.” - Craig

32:28 Principalities

•  We don’t need that kind of power

  • Jesus turned down Satan’s offer to worship him in exchange for power over earthly kingdoms

  • He already had the power He needed

    • Worshiping God gives us power

• When we respond with humility, we remind the principalities of who won

33:26 What Jesus saved us from

• American churches focus only on sin and Hell

• He also defeated the principalities who has been holding humans captive

• DEATH

  • We're going to be raised again like Him

  • We’ll have new, glorified bodies

34:41 We don’t have to envy those in power because they’re the losers

• They’re rebellious 

  • Haven’t confessed Jesus as Lord

    • Whoever does so now will be the firstfruits of the new world

• Their power is only transitory

35:30 Freedom

• Comes from Jesus; not the state!

• Don’t fear those who can only kill the body and not the soul

  • If the worst they can do is kill us, and we don’t fear death, we’re free

• It’s a major choice

  • Can you risk facing what the early church did?

    • Crucified and rocks thrown at them and pulled apart and their heads chopped off and drowned and everything set on fire…

• Consequences for those who compromise with the world

  • If you try to ally with the powers here to avoid persecution, you will face judgment from them

  • “You can't skip the consequences; you just have to choose which ones sound worse.” - Jonathan

38:07 Identity in a nation

• If we identify with or pledge our allegiance to a nation or political party or worship their military, we are telling Jesus we don’t want His Kingdom of peace

  • Just like the Israelites asking for a king

    • God told them they were rejecting Him

  • Pushing for earthly political power is rejecting the Kingdom

    • Rejecting the perfect King we already have

      • No stealing or killing

      • Actually does have our best interests at heart

      • Wants us to have fruitful lives without fear

      • “The state wants you to be afraid. That's how they keep their authority.” - Craig

39:53 Allegiance

• Giving your heart promises everything you have

• Pledging your allegiance doesn’t just mean 

  • “I’m glad to be in the club” or

  • “So happy you’re not worse”

  • It means

    • “If you go to war, I'll do whatever you tell me”

    • “My resources and my thoughts are for you”

• If any part of someone’s life is dedicated to the state, they have not surrendered to Jesus

42:05 Negative energy

• The rulers feed off of negative energy

  • Whatever violence or hate you use, it will be amplified and returned to you

  • Beat them by choosing peace

    • Increase their violence by reacting violently

    • Romans 12

      • Love your enemies

      • Feed them if they’re hungry

      • Comes before Romans 13 about respecting authority

      • How much happier and more reasonable are people who are well fed?

44:00 Our home is yet to come

• Hebrews 13:14

• It’s a mystery, and it’s supposed to be

• Let’s live with anticipation rather than trepidation about the unknown future

• Once we get there, we won’t remember the troubles we had leading up to it

• It should be exciting!!

• Let’s look forward to it with childlike wonder

• Just the idea that this troubled world is going away should make us glad

• We’ll see Him as He is

• We’ll be made like Him

• All the nations will come together in this new reality

  • They’ll collectively ask Jesus how to live

    • And go home and beat their swords into plowshares

47:03 For now

• We are the representation of Jesus on Earth

  • Imperfect

    • All we can say is that our lives are being changed by being part of this project to change the world

  • We believe His plan will come to pass

    • It’s inevitable

      • You don’t have to wonder who’s gonna win

• “There’s something coming, and it’s way better than what’s going on right now… and it’s certainly not through the state.” - Craig

• Our family is in every nation, tribe, and tongue on Earth

  • Then our family is being bombed

    • They are also doing the bombing

    • It’s not about good guys and bad guys

      • It’s that any person could be or become our family

• People are watching us for an example of Christ

  • Let’s hope we are not a stumbling block

  • Consistency is a strong statement

    • Not wavering back and forth between Jesus and politicians

---

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60. God or Government - Who's in Charge of the World? with Pete Rollo of Rival Nations & Abby Cleckner

About this episode

In this episode, Craig and his better podcast half, Abby Cleckner, are joined by Peter Rollo, founder of the website and blog project Rival Nations. Pete shares the history of Rival Nations, why he started it, why he was anonymous for so long, and where the project is headed. 

If you’ve ever questioned if the world of politics, on any side, be it liberal, conservative, anarchist, or libertarian always seems prone to the ways of this world, to violence. This episode looks at why that is, and why we, as Christians are called to a different kingdom, and we must continue to abide by the ways of that Kingdom, the one Jesus showed us, rather than pursue earthly powers.

Too often we find Christians falling into the fallacy that, if we just get more Christians elected into office things will change, and God’s will can be implemented, with the right leaders, but this is the illusion we see Jesus reject time and time again in the Bible. How do we get to this conclusion? By looking at what Jesus has to teach us. In the second half of the episode, Pete breaks down his article, Christians Can’t Be in Government, to show us exactly who is at the forefront of political power (hint: it is not God!).

We see Israel fall when it turns to earthly Kings, and we see Jesus reject the role of Messiah, in an effort to show us God’s way, not Man’s. Rival Nations is a digital archive of Pete’s theological journey, and it all started with seeing Jesus as a political force, not in his pursuit of political power, but, rather, in his rejection of it. Let us know what you think and the comments, or by sharing your thoughts on social media!

Episode Timestamps:

1:46 Pete’s Background

• Public ministry and expressing “radical” viewpoints

4:08 The difficulty of engaging those we disagree with

6:31 Peter’s Political Journey 

• No political ideology or government aligns with Jesus

• Jesus is the alternative to the earthly missions of political movements

• Jesus is political

8:27 Creation of Rival Nations (formerly done anonymously)

• Peter created the website as a tool for himself

11:30 How the Political realization of Jesus transformed Peter’s Theology

• Word Gospel was not a Hebrew word, but a word caesar was using and Jesus co-opted the phrase

• Early church’s focus on Jesus

• Modern church’s alignment with the Roman Catholic church vs. the early church of historic Christianity

• Anabaptist 

16:17 Peter’s Article - Christians Can’t Be in Government

• If you take Jesus seriously, we must abstain from seeking political power

• The myth of “getting more Christians in office will fix things”

• George W. Bush claimed to follow Jesus vs. his actions while in office (war)

• Can a Christian run a secular government, without engaging in violence

• Governments cannot love their enemy the way Jesus calls on us to love ours

• Satan offered Jesus political power and Jesus rejected it

  • Politics pulls us away from God?

  • Satan wants more Christians in office

20:22 Did God create the government (or any government)?

• 1 Samuel 8

• Humanity was given authority over animals and nature - not humanity

• Israel had no king and was supposed to be an example, but they fell into wanting kings

  • Violence always comes from wanting to control others

• The whole power structure has to be turned upside down to follow Jesus

• The notion of “Jesus for President” can never make sense with the current system

27:06 Jesus being tempted with political power and rejecting it

• Jesus avoided term Messiah

  • Had violence in its history

• People kept trying to make him king

• Satan directly tempts him

• Jesus is not going to come back and be violent

  • Why would Jesus change his mind?

• Jesus will not “slay out enemies”

  • Our propensity toward violence drives us to this thinking

• The myth of American Cowboy

  • “Might makes right”

  • Our enormous military power

  33:07 Opt-Out and Follow Jesus

• America is not our nation, Christnation is

• We are ambassadors of the Kingdom of Heaven

• But what about paul using his Roman citizenship?

  • We do what we need to survive practically and leverage situations for our mission for God and further the Gospel

• Accepting Jesus as king of your life is the only citizenship you get to choose to participate in

  • What paul talked about was a rival nation to Rome

38:59 “God puts people in political power”

• Reading Romans 13 without reading Romans 12

• Old vs. New Testament

• 3 Temptations of Jesus

• Is Satan only interested in Jesus worshiping him?

• If we know the temptation, why would we partake in it?

• Does Romans 13 work for Nazi Germany?

  • Then it doesn't work for you and America

44:49 God in the Process of Resorting All Things

• Escetoloy

• Times Theology

• Eternal Torment 

48:10 Connect with Peter and Rival Nations

• Rivalnations.org

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48. Meeting People Where They Are with Justin Cornett of For All Tennessee

In this episode, we take the podcast in a bit of a different direction. We are anarchists, but we've brought in someone who works within the state to improve citizens’ lives through the legislature. Justin Cornett started For All Tennessee so he can act as a go-between from citizens to their representatives.

For All TN listens to citizens’ needs and works to get them taken care of them by passing bills. This organization is different because its members vote on which issues to pursue, and the company is not controlled by money. For more information, visit For All Tennessee or email info@foralltn.org. Follow Justin on Facebook and Twitter. 

At The Bad Roman Project, we wish the state didn't exist. But the fact is, it does. I (Craig) have been learning that people won’t immediately jump to anarchy from their brainwashed state. We have to meet them where they're at. We have to find ways to make them see that they don't want to be controlled by an authority, especially one who only cares about them as long as they're contributing financially to the government.

Part of the work Justin is doing is spreading knowledge to average citizens about the unfair and unconstitutional laws they are abiding by. He opens their eyes to what the government is doing and encourages them to join him in pushing their local representatives in a different direction. This is a step towards freedom, a step towards taking control of what's ruling their lives and realizing how harmful the government is to their community. 

Timestamps:

2:43 Biden’s “Proclamation” about vaccine mandates

• It was just a press release

• Good ideas don’t require force

  • It’s a bad idea to criminalize bad decision making

• They never pushed the flu shot quite like this 

• “If they would have just let people decide on their own, more people probably would have taken this shot.” -Craig

• So much overreaction at the beginning by people on both sides of the aisle that people are now almost underactive and unwilling to put an experiment in their arms

• Biden and governors (like Texas and Florida) are making “mandates” about the vaccine – either that it can or cannot be required of specific people

  • But in Tennessee, it is a law that companies cannot require their employees to be vaccinated

    • Craig hasn’t had to choose between his livelihood and his life like so many others

    • Justin helped him talk to his politicians about it

8:30 We still live under our government

• Reality is, we live with a governmental system

  • If we want anything to happen, we have to work within that system

  •  most of the followers of the bad Roman are not ready to declare total anarchy, so we have to ease them into it a bit

  • “The world exists as it exists… If you try to operate contrary to the way the world actually works, it's not going to work out well for you.” -Justin

• Sometimes, people think they’re opposed to you

  • Until you take the time to understand them and explain more

    • And you both find they’ve said the same thing you said before, just differently

  • No one will listen to a headstrong bully

  • Jesus used love, hope, and patience to guide people to His path

    • If we don't use those tools, we will not succeed 

• Someone’s gotta work through the state; just not Craig ;)

13:44 For All Tennessee

• Takes policy ideas to the hill

• Members pay $5+/month

  • They get to vote on which issues are focused on

  • Also, people can designate their money for specific issues

• Utilizes different tactics such as pamphlets, door to door information sharing, and ads

• They do not campaign for or endorse certain politicians. They simply inform people about where all the politicians stand on important issues

• No party affiliation; just what's best for Tennessee

• “You don't fix what the government broke with more government. You can't really fix what the parties have broken with more parties, because the problem is inherent in the parties.” -Justin

• America was supposed to be self-governed through Representatives 

  • But right now there are two organizations who tell us what our options are, and we have to choose which of the 2 is less terrible

    • The only way to change that is for citizens to lean on their representatives

• Working to 

  • Find out what the citizens want 

  • Create policies

  • Lobby for representatives to vote for what do people in their district have asked 

    • If they don’t, they’ll lose votes

  • Find out what representatives think about policies and inform citizens

  • Guide people into a different mindset where they

    • Have influence over public policy

    • Don’t blindly follow government

      • They have the gift of free will 

    • Are aware of and ask for what's best for their community

  • Guide people to take a step towards freedom

• Run by this principle: get policy done that empowers people and limits government

28:23 How the founding fathers might feel about how things work now

• Rollin over in their graves

• If they were here, they’d go to war with our government

  • The federal government was never supposed to have as much power as it does

    • States were supposed to have more control

    • The federal budget is significantly higher than all the states’ budgets combined

    • The States created the federal government

      • And should therefore have more power 

    • The federal government does not constitutionally have the authority to pass a law 

      • But they've been doing it anyway for 100 years 

      • Everyone just behaves like the acts they have passed are law

33:04 Hypocrisy

• Saying we have to follow something because it's the law

  • While also dismissing laws that don't make sense

  • Or even disobeying align yourself while demanding that others get punished for it

•  Saying we should love our neighbor

  •  While also delighting in locking him up for nonviolent crimes

    •  Making his education, career, and family life a massive struggle

    •  Keeping him dependent on the state for sustenance

34:58 A new definition of politics

• Politics happens any time people interact with other people

• If you have a society full of garbage people, it is going to fail regardless of what government it has

• If you have a society full of people who truly care about others, the government won't be needed to control them

• We need a combination of 

  • A kind attitude towards each other and

  • A lack of governmental control

• We've got to focus on the goal

• We need to fix our eyes on Jesus, not what's going on in the world around us

  • Our treasure is not here on Earth 

  • But let's make the most out of what we have here

    •  While recognizing that this isn't the end for us

38:00 Working to limit police power

• Qualified immunity

  • Hasn't been voted on within the organization yet

  • They may or may not work on it, depending on the votes

• No-knock Raids

  • Worked to get 123 out of 132 votes to abolish them in TN

  • Written with police chiefs and the governor's office 

  • Tennessee already had a good record and policies in place to prevent no-knocks

    • This was just the final step

  • Police now have to report any excessive force used

  • Deescalation training is now required

40:52 Low-hanging fruit 

• Going for the policies that are already widely agreed upon

  • They are agreed upon by citizens, not necessarily representatives

  • Civil asset forfeiture

    • The government can see that you have assets and simply take them even when you have done nothing wrong

    • Many representatives see this as a necessary income stream for the government

    • Most average citizens have no idea this is a thing

      • So part of the work is to educate them and ask them to join against it

44:17 Effectiveness Analysis

• We check on the issues we worked on

• We got a bill passed on civil asset forfeiture that made the state more financially responsible when proven to be in the wrong

  • But they have a loophole

  • People are not being reimbursed for their legal fees

  • Now, we have another angle to focus on to help people

48:12 “We are nothing more than a revenue source for the government.” -Craig

• How do people not see this?

  • When a lie becomes commonplace, people just accept it

48:48 COVID migration

• People are moving to different states to escape COVID laws

  • Hopefully, those from the most extreme states don’t bring the lies they lived under with them

    • Conservatives are bad, but liberals are worse

    • Californians moving to Texas

  • In one county of TN, restaurants demanded people’s addresses in order to track their travel

• The government wants to divide and conquer us

  • We should be focusing on the similarities between groups

• Both sides want us to get vaccinated right now

  • Liberals get there by mandating what they think is good for us

  • Both are seeking gain and change culture

    • The way they want the culture to change to is different

    • Both prescribe laws for the purpose of culture shift

55:31 Plans for the new year

• Members can vote on what issues we focus on in 2022

  • Join before the deadline and get your vote in 

• If someone comes to us with $100,000 to work on a particular issue in a certain direction, we still need the approval of our members before moving forward

• As far as we know, no one else operates this way

  • If someone knows of an organization that does, please let us know so we can learn from them and be allies

• Currently, we only work in Tennessee but would love to have chapters in other states and then federally

  • Have incorporated for this reason

  • Everybody wants somebody to be doing this work 

Contact For All TN at info@foralltn.org

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45. Radically Following Jesus with Shane Claiborne

In this episode, Shane Claiborne joins us to talk about living like Jesus, abortion, gun violence, Christian nationalism, and whether we should get involved in politics as a way to help others live in freedom. 

We know the teachings of Jesus, but what does it look like to actually follow them? How can we care for other humans as God instructed, and how can we do that when we live amidst a corrupt and often unjust government? As Shane points out, “If anybody should be suspicious of state power, it should be Christians who worship an executed and risen savior.” Our Lord was killed by the government. We should not trust in our rulers, but in Him, but, as Shane would argue, we can use their system to help people by getting bad policies changed.

Who is Shane Claiborne? He is a radical advocate for living as if Jesus really meant what He said. He heads up an intentional, simple-living Christian community called Red Letter Christians, and is the co-founder of The Simple Way, an intentional neighborhood-based Christian community in North Philadelphia. Shane has been to jail multiple times while advocating for the poor and against war. You can connect with him on his personal website, Twitter, email, and Instagram. 

Timestamps:

1:26 What following Jesus looks like

• “Man, I was pretty together, met Jesus, and He messed me up.” -Shane

  • Teachings like

    • To be great, become the least

    • Love your enemies

    • Sell possessions and give to the poor

  • Started a community for local homeless people who were being evicted from a church. They

    • Fix up abandoned houses

    • Create gardens

    • Paint murals

    • Care for neighbors’ needs 

7:24 Pro-life or just anti-abortion?

• “We shouldn't be in other countries dropping bombs on people” -Craig

• One-issue voting is inconsistent

• Christians are the obstacle to progress

9:45 A Bible in one hand; a newspaper in the other

•  Know what's going on in the world around you

• “When you look at Jesus, He was talking about the Kingdom of God coming on Earth, as it is in Heaven. Not just something we go up to when we die, but something we bring down while we're alive.” - Shane

• Study the Bible and sociology together

11:41 Christian Nationalism

• Trump didn’t change the church; he revealed their true beliefs 

• “A lot of white Christians have been shaped more by whiteness than by Christ.” -Shane

• People use the Gospel to justify all kinds of atrocities

• Reconstructing the Gospel: Finding Freedom from Slaveholder Religion by Jonathan Wilson-Hartgrove

• Compare Trump and his policies to The Sermon on the Mount

• Christians betrayed Jesus with a kiss for a couple seats on the Supreme Court

• Welcome the stranger -- not because you're Republican or Democrat, but because you follow Jesus, and that is His example

• “A lot of times it's been more Fox news or a political party that's shaping our imagination than the Gospel” -Shane

• Christians wind up saying ugly things like that they want to go to the border and shoot people when they follow Trump instead of Christ

19:15 Nothing new

• People fear the transfer of power from white people

  • They want to take America back; to make it great again

    • To counteract any progress Black Lives Matter made

• Fear and love cannot occupy the same space 

  • “What would America look like if love rather than fear were compelling our policies and shaping our minds on a lot of these things?” -Shane

22:45 Debate: Do we need to get involved in politics to love our neighbor?

• Shane: Laws can either improve or destroy people's lives

  •  We need to work to get harmful laws changed for the good of our neighbor

• Craig: Politics are not our thing; we're of a different Kingdom

  •  Jesus didn't use politics to advance His agenda

• Shane: Opting out has consequences

  • We're not putting our hope in a politician; we’re voting to change policies that make life harder for our friends

  • Vote on behalf of those Jesus blessed

    • The poor, the mourning, the refugees, the incarcerated... 

  • Don't only help them through the ballot. Work every day for their freedom.

  • Fight for laws that make it harder to kill them

• Craig: Ballots don't do that. Voting doesn't change anything and doesn't help anyone.

• Shane: We should use every weapon we have; harness the principalities 

• Craig: Christians live on the fringes of society and shouldn't be involved in the system at all

• Shane: Moving to a community with black folks changed my perspective

  • Dr. King went to jail for political change 

  • “I do believe that the church is a primary instrument for God transforming the world.”

  • God can redeem the system using us

  • Legislation helps people flourish

    • We use it to keep people safe in cars; need for guns too

    • Jesus judges nations on how they cared for the poor

31:14 The early Church’s politics

• They were called atheists because they denied the deity of Rome

• They disrupted the empire by claiming another Emperor

• But Jesus didn’t kill anyone to overthrow the empire

  • He died.

  • And many details leading to His death can be seen as a parody to Caesar’s rule

• “If anybody should be suspicious of state power, it should be Christians who worship an executed and risen Savior.” - Shane

• Irreconcilable vocations

  • Brothel, executioner, anyone who had to kill for the state

    • Jesus said love your enemies, which means not killing them

• They were consistently against all violence

  • Abortion, execution, gladiators…

36:09 Living like Christians

• People use the Bible to justify terrible things

• We cannot live like a Christian and go against the teachings of Christ

• Gandhi wished we would. He liked Jesus, but was not a fan of the church

• We should view the entire Bible’s contents through the lens of Jesus 

39:13 Guns into Gardens Project; Beating Guns book

• Old Testament prophets speak of turning swords into plows

  • Similarly, turning guns into garden tools

    • And crosses

      • One says I want to kill; the other says I’m willing to die

    • And jewelry for victims of gun violence to wear and sell

  • People say it's not a gun problem; it's a heart problem

    • It's both

    • God transforms the heart; people transform the laws

  • Jesus should inspire us to protect life

42:04 The American Revolution

•   Claimed to be following God

  •  If they were, they never would have gone to war 

  • America began with guns. It's impossible to imagine our country without them

    • How else could they have started a country on stolen land with stolen labor?

42:56 Red-letter Christian Intentional Community

• A glimpse of Heaven on Earth

• Sharing everything in common end taking care of each other

• Reducing gun violence through:  

  • Hospitality

  • Drug addiction recovery

  • Lifting people out of the ditch

    • Figure out what's landing them in the ditch in the first place

      • It’s often government laws and policies

        • So we vote and advocate for change

• It'll probably land you in jail 

  • Charged with a felony for leaving water in the desert for immigrants 

  • Obey the good laws; disobey the bad ones

    • Expose how crazy they are by loudly getting in trouble 

    • A rich tradition of civil disobedience 

    • Be willing to suffer the consequences of exposing injustice

• Issues around the world

  • Yemen, Iraq, Afghanistan…

    • Preemptive Love

• We spend more on the military than social uplift and are headed for spiritual death 

About our sponsor

Blockchain Trading Co. aims to be the leading DAO (Decentralized Autonomous Organization) in DeFi (Decentralized Finance) by fostering a community for purveyors of fine digital assets.

Whether you are new to crypto and DeFi or you've already begun your journey around the block...chain, Blockchain Trading Co. provides you with a community of people passionate about digital assets.

Click to Join the discord server today!

39. Disestablishmentarianism

What is "disestablishmentarianism"? In this episode, Craig speaks with Michael Korbel about his article Against Those Who Are Against the State, where he defines this word(antidisestablishmentarianism) as a mindset of being against those who are against the establishment. Right now, those of us who are refusing to comply with current mandates are being not only ridiculed but actually kicked out of businesses and schools. Together, we explore how we got to this point, what we can do to thrive in this environment, and how understanding the word disestablishmentarianism can help us frame current events.

Michael Korbel is the host of The Invictus Mind podcast where he interviews experts about political, financial, and spiritual freedom for the individual. Invictus is Greek for unconquerable. His main message is that individuals have the power to make changes for themselves in their lives. They just have to take that power from those in the systems who claim it over them. You can connect with and learn more about Michael on Facebook, Twitter, MeWe, Instagram, and YouTube.

Timestamps & Starting Points:

2:18 Mask mandates in March 2021

• Getting kicked out of the post office

• Restaurants making people wear masks to wait, but not to eat

  •  They’re worried about health inspectors

    • “a lot of these people are just concerned about what the government can do.”

6:11 Antidisestablishmentarianism

• means “against those who are against the status quo”

10:03 History of antidisestablishmentarianism

• Henry the 8th in 1533

  • Forbidden to divorce by the Pope

    • Wanted out of several marriages because no sons

    • Created the Anglican Church so he could divorce 

      • Everything the king said became a religion

      • Divine Right of Kings & antidisestablishmentarianism

        • Anyone who opposed him was opposed

• Simultaneously, Luther and others were pulling away from Roman Catholic control

  • Enlightenment

  • Other sects were forbidden by England

14:42 Entanglement

• Are our laws based on Jesus or the 10 Commandments?

  • Sort of… only the commandments about loving other people were made into laws here; nothing about who to worship or how

• Our founding fathers were not all Christians

  • They wanted to create a place where anyone could practice religion however they want

  • Laws were created to keep people safe, not properly religious

  • Compared to England where there was Divine Right of Kings to speak for God and rule the people with His power

18:06 Can morality be legislated?

• “Conservatives believe that without the establishment, morality would cease to exist in society” -Craig

• Mike says draw the line at the government throwing people in cages for not living up to your standards of morality

  • People shouldn’t be allowed to steal or harm others, but why can’t they choose their own relationships?

  • Craig asks how can you judge these people when you don’t even know any?

  • They are suffering in the church and contemplating suicide. We’re doing something wrong.

  • Really, it’s none of our business. Jesus says love people. Period.

• Live by Matt Kibbe’s words: “Don’t hurt me; don’t take my stuff.”

  • If a person is doing something you don’t like, but it doesn’t hurt you, and they’re not taking your stuff… it’s none of your business

• The Left’s way of forcing morality

  • Forcing “charity” through taxes

  • “The left thinks that they can force people through the state to act a certain way, just like the right thinks they can use the state to force people to act a certain way.” -Craig

26:51 Separation of church and state

• We can live with people who have different gods without hurting each other

• The state cannot dictate who or how we worship

29:39 How Involved to be in the state

• The Early Church had nothing to do with the state

  • “Nothing about the teachings of Christ said, get your favorite politician elected so we can legislate morality.” - Craig

    • Christ said to love God; love people

  • If someone really wants to fix a problem using the state, they can’t. Not without unraveling the entire thing. It’s all so connected 

    • For example: if taxes were abolished, at least three other systems would be devastated

• It’s so hard for us to disentangle because we’ve been so tied to the state for so long

• "When there are presidential debates, I'd rather watch wrestling. That's more realistic to me than a presidential debate." -Craig

• Stop voting.

  • But if you just can't, at least choose to only vote for your local community leaders

  • If you must vote at the national level, select a 3rd party candidate

  • “I can't control what they're going to do. So I might as well just stay out of it.” -Mike

40:09 The fall of the empire

• Rulers exploit religion to conquer and pillage

• If it falls in our lifetime, I don't anticipate chaos

  • People will figure out how to adjust

• So many parallels to the Roman empire before their collapse

  • The basement of currency

  • Lack of morality among common people

  • Overreaching government

    • Expanding control to other countries

• People need to find something else to put their faith in because it's going down

• If it's not our generation, it could be your children's or grandchildren's