67. What do gambling and voting have in common? with Paul Varkey

About this Episode

Craig is joined by Paul Parayil for his first-ever podcast appearance. Through his prolific and provocative writings, Paul advocates for liberty, truth, honesty, and the Kingdom of God. His blog and Facebook posts have garnered quite a following. In this episode, they discuss Paul's article, "Do you believe Gambling is a vice? I don't think you do". In the article, Paul grabs the attention of the evangelical right audience and shows how Christians engage in high-stakes gambling on something worse than cards. Fear produces voting, but just like casino gambling, the house (or the state) always wins.

When the church condones the state's violence, it fails to align with people's consciences, becoming a stumbling block. However, the church will find itself more attractive when Christians promote Jesus's basic teachings of self-governance and doing no harm. We use the term Christian Anarchist because a core component of Christianity has been lost. Instead, that which should be an obvious and natural occurrence in the church must be emphasized. Anarchy is implied, and the entire gospel message is summed up in one sentence: No King but Christ. 

Since the beginning of the church, we have had one King. Jesus never sought political office! It is morally inconsistent of us to believe we have the right to coerce our neighbors with political power gained through participation in state activities, be they politics or voting. We are more consistent with Jesus's actions when we serve from the fringes of society with love and charity. The beginning of the healing of this world is through peacefully walking away from the gamble that is voting.

Paul's social media: 

• FB Page: https://www.facebook.com/paul.varkey , 

• Hive blog

Episode Timestamps:

1:15 Introduce Paul

• Enjoys writing 

  • Initially, to clarify his own thoughts

  • Found others enjoy thinking outside the box and reading his writings

• Often interacting in various Christian Anarchist circles

• Family originally from India 

  • A family of practicing Christians 

  • When Paul was three, his parents immigrated to the Middle East (Saudi Arabia) and lived there until he graduated from high school

  • Christmas holidays were spent visiting family in India

• Education

  • Graduated high school in Saudi Arabia

  • Went back to India for college

  • Moved to the US as a graduate student in 2004

  • Moved to California to work as a software engineer in 2011

  • Been working in Tech since then

5:45 How did Paul come to Christian anarchy?

• Brought up as Christians in Saudi Arabia.

• Moved to Chicago at 21 years old

  • Began thinking about politics

  • Knew he was pro-life because it's a matter that evangelicals care about

  • Became a republican quickly

• Knew that his support for GOP was tribalism  

• Heard of Ron Paul and what he had to say about:

  • The Fed

  • The Military-Industrial Complex, https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/social-sciences/military-industrial-complex 

  • Regulatory capture of the big corporations

• Provoked into considering the logical inconsistency of his own beliefs 

  • Began looking into political libertarianism

  • Kicked and screamed for a few years into anarchy 

• Was not aware of Christian anarchism 

  • A closet Christian Anarchist 

  • No one to fellowship with

  • Craig also had a similar experience until he came across the Anarcho Christian Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/groups/645893438920507 

10:15 What is Christian Anarchism?

• The early church were anarchists 

  • Including Jesus 

• No title; the word didn't exist

  • But they practiced it

  • It was an obvious part of being a Christian

    • Do you tell people that you are a "virgin birthist"? 

    • There's no need to specify because most Christians believe in it

    • So it was with Christian anarchy in the early church 

  • A core message has been lost of how the kingdom of God works with nations here

• We've lost an essential message of the gospel, so we must use the label to emphasize it

• It's okay to disagree with others

  • Secular anarchists

  • Or even Paul of Tarsus

• It's more important to follow Jesus than anarchy

15:35 No King But Christ 

• Essentially communicates the whole gospel message 

  • While implying anarchy

• How are secular anarchists preaching better moral truths than the church? 

• Anarcho Christian Facebook group:

  • Don't all agree on Christian doctrines

  • They at least agree on the anarchist outlook

• More people seem to be latching onto anarchy

  • Self-rule

  • Do no harm

  • Don't take my things

  • Follow the basic teachings of Christ

• Voluntaryism doesn't trigger Christian minds to think of chaos.

• In the right-leaning "Christian" culture, there is an identification of patriotism and nationalism as the proper practicing of faith

20:30 Paul pokes the bear to make people think.

• The biggest tragedies of the church: 

  • We lost the concept of No King But Christ 

  • Colluding with the state

  • In both the Eastern Christian and Western church circles

  • We have compromised our values

22:46 Read Paul’s Article: "Do you believe Gambling is a vice? I don't think you do."

• Grabbing the attention of the evangelical right

  • It's addressed to people who think gambling is a vice or sin

• There is a loser in gambling

  • There is also a winner; it's always the house

• In the casino, most of the participants frequently lose

  • Some participants win big, keeping people hooked

  • The only one who wins is the house.

• Gambling is a vice because you produce no real wealth, 

  • One of us is poorer based on luck

  • There is nothing godly about this

• There is something far worse than gambling 

  • Christians engage in it regularly 

  • This form of gambling has a house, and the house always wins.

• When you vote, you wager your own life and liberties and securities.

  • Cannot recover lost freedoms back from the state through voting

  • You legitimize the beast through voting

29:05 What is voting?

• The state says, "Come along. All of you will lose some liberties, but some of you will have the chance to have less of your liberties taken."

• Fear takes over when people vote

• There are more than two people to choose from

31: 48 What is the state?

• Takes people's liberties

• Has never once shrunk

  • States grow or collapse.

• Taking the chance and succumbing to fear keeps the house growing

  • Yet people vote for candidates they don't like

• The idea of your "civic duties" being to vote is ridiculous

• "Go vote" is a religious mantra

• It doesn't matter to the elites who wins

  • The aura of the legitimacy of the beast improves when people show up to vote

  • Republicans are Democrats 2.0

  • Don't put others in power over your neighbours

36:00 God alone gives liberty 

• Jesus sets us free, not the US

  • There may be some good outcomes from voting

    • God makes good come from evil

• Paul's moral analysis of voting is the reason he doesn't

  • I don't have the right to dominate my neighbour

    • No coercing them to behave the way I want

    • Unlikely to bring more liberty

    • It's still a gamble

• Anarchists joining libertarian parties promote the state

39.00 Why don't Christians just walk away?

• One solution to the problems of government

  • Peacefully walk away

  • Christians should know this and opt out

• The empire is falling and we already have a King

  • Power will corrupt

  • You will lose while growing the state

• If someone is addicted to any addictive substance, they cannot go cold turkey

  • Voting gives a dopamine hit

  • If you feel the need to vote, at least vote for a third party

  • Take other political actions 

• The Libertarian parties will never take over the state

  • Their message is good

• Paul does more good outside of political processes 

  • Being morally consistent with his beliefs

• If anyone was going to change the US system, it would have been Ron Paul

  • You cannot change the mafia from the inside 

  • The point of the mafia is to be the mafia

  • Ron Paul changed awakened people https://www.thefamouspeople.com/profiles/ron-paul-5118.php 

• Voting is a risk; why not simply obey Jesus Christ?

• When Satan tempted Jesus with authority, He didn't rebuke Satan, telling him that the authority was not his to give. Instead, He said, "No, I'm good." https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%204%3A1-11&version=NIV 

• Likewise, Christians should say, "No, I'm good." 

  • rather than seek power

  • Seek Jesus as our King

• The early church writings show:

  • They had no interest in the Roman Empire 

  • Tertullian called the affairs of the state foreign https://quotepark.com/authors/tertullian/quotes-about-the-world/

  • The kingdom of God is a literal Kingdom

  • Their King did not use a sword against Caesar and Pilot 

  • They expanded the kingdom through love, charity, and service

  • From outside the system

• Christians can enrich anarchism with the teachings of Christ

---

Related Episodes

Related Blog Post

146. Christianity without Compromise: Jesus Centered Life, Not Left or Right with Jake Doberenz

When Christians step into the political arena, do we realize how much compromise it takes to stay there?

It’s easy to think that casting a vote, joining a campaign, or posting about “God and country” is just doing our civic duty. But what happens when the cross gets buried under a flag and we call that faithfulness?

In this episode of The Bad Roman Podcast, Craig Hargis sits down with Jake Doberenz, host of Christianity Without Compromise and writer of the Smashing Idols Substack, to unpack what happens when believers give their loyalty to Caesar and call it discipleship. From a rigged high-school election to the moral chaos of modern war, this conversation asks a dangerous question:

👉 Can you follow Jesus without compromise and still play the political game?

The Illusion of Influence: Why Our Votes Don’t Redeem the System

Jake shares a funny but revealing story from high school: helping count ballots in a student election that didn’t add up. The “safe” candidate won, even though the “popular” one clearly had more votes.

It’s small potatoes compared to Washington, D.C., but the lesson hit deep – politics is messy because power always corrupts. Even good intentions get swallowed up by systems built on ambition, control, and fear.

The same thing happens every election season in America. Christians line up behind the lesser of two evils and call it righteousness, forgetting that evil (lesser or not) is still evil. As Craig puts it:

“We’re outsourcing our sin to politicians and calling it stewardship.”

We tell ourselves that our guy will make a difference, that our vote “matters.” But as history and Scripture both show, when human power is the goal, the Kingdom always gets compromised.

Israel’s King Problem: A Warning from 1 Samuel 8

When Israel demanded a king, God warned them exactly what would happen:

“He will take your sons for his army, your daughters for his servants, your fields for his gain. You will cry out because of your king, but the Lord will not answer you.” (1 Samuel 8)

They wanted to be “like the nations.” They wanted the comfort of a visible ruler, something tangible they could trust. But a king, any king, always costs something. And as Jake points out, the story of David proves it.

David began as a humble man after God’s heart, refusing to kill Saul, honoring God above self. But the moment he put on the crown, the corruption began. Politics twisted even the best of men.

Sound familiar? We see it every election cycle. The promises start holy, the slogans sound moral, but once power hits the bloodstream, compromise follows.

The lesson is timeless: You can’t have a king and still claim “No King but Christ.”

Psalm 146: A Better Political Manifesto

If the modern church needs a political platform, Psalm 146 should be it:

“Do not put your trust in princes, in human beings, who cannot save… Blessed are those whose help is the God of Jacob.”

Politicians die. Policies change. Empires fall. But the Kingdom of God is consistent: feeding the hungry, freeing prisoners, lifting up the oppressed, and frustrating the wicked.

The psalmist describes God’s Kingdom as everything the state isn’t: compassionate instead of coercive, restorative instead of retaliatory, faithful instead of fickle.

When Christians defend injustice in the name of national interest, when we justify violence because it’s “our side” doing it, we aren’t advancing the Kingdom…we’re betraying it.

Romans 12 Before Romans 13

Jake makes a crucial point: never read Romans 13 before Romans 12.

Romans 12 tells us to bless our enemies, to overcome evil with good, and to refuse revenge. Then comes Romans 13, the chapter everyone loves to quote to justify obedience to government.

But if your reading of Romans 13 gives Caesar permission to do what Jesus forbids you to do, you’ve missed the point. The passage isn’t a loophole for Christians to fund or bless violence, it’s a reminder that God can use even corrupt governments for His purposes. It’s descriptive, not prescriptive.

The call remains the same: love your enemies, feed your enemies, pray for those who persecute you.

That’s the real revolution.

Consistency: The Most Radical Witness

Craig and Jake both circle back to one word: consistency.

It’s what made Jesus so magnetic. He didn’t just preach love of enemy, He practiced it, even as they nailed Him to a cross.

Consistency is what gives the gospel credibility. When Christians say “love your neighbor” but vote for leaders who bomb them, the world notices. When we preach peace but cheer for war, seekers walk away.

Jake shared a story of a friend who left the faith after watching Christians justify the slaughter in Gaza. “If this is Christianity,” he said, “I want nothing to do with it.”

That’s the cost of inconsistency. Not just hypocrisy, but lost souls.

Repentance and Reorientation

Repentance isn’t a guilt trip. It’s a direction change. As the Bible Project puts it, repentance means to turn around.

If your politics have hardened your heart, turn around.
If you’ve placed hope in princes and policies, turn around.
If you’ve excused violence because your side did it, turn around.

Refocus on the Sermon on the Mount. Build your life, and your worldview, on that mountain, not Capitol Hill.

A Different Kind of Politics

Neither Craig nor Jake are anti-political, they’re anti-idolatry. They believe in a Kingdom politics rooted in the Beatitudes, not ballots.

As Jake said:

“Jesus has a politics. But it looks nothing like America, or Uganda, or anywhere else on earth.”

The Kingdom of God is a government without coercion, a rule where the King dies for His enemies instead of killing them. That’s the politics of the Lamb.

It’s time for the church to recover it.

No King but Christ

When we call Jesus “King,” it’s not a metaphor. It’s an allegiance statement. It means nobody else gets to be king, not presidents, not pastors, not parties.

Craig sums it up perfectly:

“My allegiance is to Jesus. Not a president, not a senator, not a mayor. Jesus Christ alone.”

If that sounds radical, good. The early church was called radical too. Polycarp, Origen, and Tertullian all refused to worship the emperor. They were accused of being bad Romans.

Maybe that’s what faithfulness still looks like today.

Listen & Reflect

🎧 Listen to the full episode: Christianity without Compromise: Jesus Centered Life, Not Left or Right with Jake Doberenz, available on all major podcast platforms.

💬 Question for reflection:
If Jesus is King, what does that mean for how you engage with politics, power, and national identity?

📖 Scriptures to Revisit:
1 Samuel 8 | Psalm 146 | Matthew 5–7 | Romans 12–13

🤝Connect with Jake Doberenz:

Episode Timestamps:

(0:22) Introducing guest Jake Doberins

• Host of Christianity Without Compromise and author of Smashing Idols SubStack

• Exploring Christian involvement in politics and its real-world impact

(1:00) From “Smashing Idols” to “Christianity Without Compromise”

• Jake explains the podcast’s name change for clarity and focus

• Connection between his Substack and podcast projects

(2:26) Standing firm on the words of Jesus

• Discussing the need for consistency in following Christ’s teachings

• Rejecting political debates and distractions

(4:07) Jake’s background and calling

• Biblical Studies and Theological Studies degrees

• From church ministry to media ministry and podcast production

(8:00) Early political experience

• Jake’s role as Republican Club president in high school

• First-hand exposure to campaigns and local politics

(15:22) Wrestling with faith and politics

• Questioning whether political life aligns with Christian convictions

• Recognizing the temptation to compromise for success

(19:52) The cost of Christian political involvement

• Exploring how “outsourcing sin to Caesar” harms others

• Challenging Christians to see the damage caused by state loyalty

(24:12) Consistency as Christian witness

• Why inconsistency weakens the gospel message

• The power of living out “No King but Christ”

(28:51) 1 Samuel 8 and Israel’s demand for a king

• God’s warning about taxation, conscription, and oppression

• Parallels between ancient Israel and modern Christian nationalism

(32:00) Reading Romans 13 through Romans 12

• Understanding submission to government through enemy-love

• The Sermon on the Mount as the Christian’s true political manifesto

(35:35) The corrupting nature of power

• How King David’s downfall reveals the danger of authority

• Politics as a distraction from devotion to Jesus

(40:17) Psalm 146 — trusting God, not princes

• Contrast between human rulers and God’s faithfulness

• Reminder that only God’s Kingdom endures

(45:39) The mission behind Christianity Without Compromise

• Refocusing believers on Jesus over modern idols

• Addressing politics, Christian nationalism, and misplaced loyalties

(50:28) Encouragement for Christian creators

• Craig calls for more podcasts, blogs, and projects centered on Jesus

Importance of sharing the message: No King but Christ

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Related Episodes

Related Blog Post

145. Charlie Kirk and the Lamb of God: Can You Carry the Flag and the Cross at the Same Time?

After Charlie Kirk’s tragic death, a deeper conversation has surfaced about the growing entanglement of Christianity and politics.

This episode of The Bad Roman Podcast steps into that tension and explores what happens when the Church trades the cross for a campaign.

Our guest, Brian Drinkwine, is a pastor and church planter who has walked that road himself. He went from a passionate political believer to a follower of Christ learning to question the marriage between faith and power. His viral post about Charlie Kirk’s memorial service sparked a national conversation and revealed how uneasy many Christians feel about the blending of faith and political ideology.

The Malaise of Modern Christianity

There is a growing discomfort in the Church, a spiritual restlessness that Brian calls malaise. Many believers sense that something is wrong, even if they cannot explain it.

This episode gives language to that unease and helps people who feel out of place in modern Christianity find words for what they feel.

“You’re not crazy,” Brian says to those who feel out of step. “You saw this and thought, something’s not right. You chose to give your allegiance to Jesus alone. That should be celebrated, not condemned.”

That is the heartbeat of The Bad Roman: No King but Christ.

It is not a slogan but a return to the simplicity and power of early Christianity.

The Danger of Political Allegiance

One of the clearest insights from this conversation is that political parties often act like religions.

Each one has its own sacred texts, rituals, and values. For some, the Constitution becomes scripture. Voting becomes a sacrament. Party leaders become prophets.

When Christians give their ultimate loyalty to these political “religions,” they risk betraying the Kingdom of God.

“We cannot serve both God and Mammon,” Brian reminds us. “And sometimes, political power becomes the new Mammon.”

This is not theory. It is a call to honest reflection.
Have we allowed our politics to shape our faith more than the teachings of Jesus?

Reframing Faith and Politics

Throughout the episode, Brian and Craig invite listeners to rethink what it means to follow Jesus in a politically divided world.

1. Patriotism vs. Nationalism: It is good to appreciate your country. But when love of nation becomes ultimate loyalty, it becomes idolatry.

2. The Narrow Path: Following Jesus is not about finding middle ground. It is about choosing a completely different way. The Kingdom of God is not found on the right or the left. It is found on the narrow road of Christ.

3. Repentance as Revolution: The word metanoia means a complete change of mind. It is not about guilt but about turning back to Jesus as King.

4. The Power of Forgiveness: The difference between Erica Kirk’s forgiveness and the calls for revenge at the memorial shows what Kingdom love really looks like.

Practical Steps for Realignment

If your faith feels tangled up in politics, Brian offers a few ways to begin untangling it.

• Take a “politics fast.” Step away from political media and spend time in the Gospels instead.

• Simplify your faith. Start again with the basics, like the Sermon on the Mount.

• Check your allegiances. Ask yourself, “If loving others like Jesus meant losing my party loyalty, could I do it?”

• Speak prophetically. True patriotism tells the truth, even when it is uncomfortable.

What This Teaches Us About Faith and Politics

This conversation is a mirror for all of us who have ever mixed our love for Jesus with our loyalty to empire. It reminds us that our mission is not political victory but faithfulness to Christ.

In a world divided by tribalism, allegiance to Jesus is the most countercultural thing we can offer.

“On the other side of my political allegiance,” Brian says, “when I gave that up and fully gave myself to Jesus, it is just a better life.”

So where does your allegiance really lie?
Are you ready to walk away from the noise and return to the way of Jesus?

The Kingdom still calls.

No King but Christ.

🤝Connect with Brian Drinkwine:

• Email: brian@briandrinkwine.com

• Website: https://briandrinkwine.com/

• Linkedin

• X

• Facebook

• Instagram 

• Ministry at Breakthrough Church

Episode Timestamps:

(0:22) Discussing reactions to Charlie Kirk's death

• Brian Drinkwine joins to discuss varied reactions to Kirk's passing

• Read Brains post here

• Examining potential blurred lines due to nationalism

• Questioning if some churches have lost focus on "no king but Jesus"

(0:48) Brian Drinkwine's background

• Grew up in Nashville, Tennessee in independent fundamental Baptist tradition

• Transitioned to Southern Baptist church and found faith at youth camp

• Experience in youth ministry and church planting

(4:09) The viral post about Charlie Kirk

• Origin of Drinkwine's post addressing the tragedy

• Unexpected widespread response and impact

• Dealing with the flood of messages and notifications

(10:45) Addressing the church's response

• Preparing a message to bring the congregation together

• Importance of uniting around Jesus rather than political parties

• Transcribing and adapting the message for social media

(23:52) Reflections on the memorial service

• Conflicting emotions during Charlie Kirk's memorial

• Redeeming moments and problematic statements

• Struggle with nationalistic undertones in Christian spaces

(29:19) The danger of political allegiance

• Exploring the concept of allegiance in faith and politics

• Matthew Bates' book "Salvation by Allegiance Alone"

• Warning against getting sucked back into allegiance to empire

(35:32) Early church perspective on empire

• Examining how early Christians responded to empire

• Importance of studying church fathers like Tertullian

• Unpopularity of this view in mainstream churches

(41:34) The malaise in modern Christianity

• Growing sense of unease among followers of Jesus

• Need to return to Jesus as the solution

• Importance of simplifying faith and focusing on basic teachings

(54:46) Christian nationalism and its impact

• Difference between patriotism and nationalism

• Danger of giving full allegiance to political parties

• Need for a prophetic voice while appreciating one's country

(1:06:56) Tools for self-reflection

• Developing a breakdown of political parties and Jesus as rival religions

• Creating a 10-point checklist for assessing political engagement

• Importance of distinguishing between political identity and identity in Christ

(1:17:34) Conclusion and future discussions

• Potential follow-up episode on political parties and Jesus as religions

• Invitation for listeners to engage in dialogue

• Plans for online community discussions on these issues

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Related Episodes

Related Blog Post

143. Christians, Libertarians, and Voting: The Golden Rule Test

Are you unknowingly supporting tyranny every time you cast a ballot? This provocative question lies at the heart of our latest Bad Roman podcast episode featuring Jeb Smith, a thought-provoking writer challenging conventional wisdom on voting.

Christians, libertarians, or those who identify as both, often assume our civic duty includes heading to the polls. But what if participating in elections actually contradicts our core values? Let’s explore why voting might be fundamentally at odds with both Christian teachings and libertarian principles.

The Paradox of Voting

Jeb Smith argues that voting creates an inherent contradiction for both libertarians and Christians:

“If libertarianism is a live and let live attitude... voting is of course, the opposite of that. If libertarians get to that magic 51% and force their ways on everyone else, you’re no longer allowing Democrats and Republicans to have their way.”

This highlights a key tension: how can we claim to value individual liberty while simultaneously trying to impose our will on others through the ballot box?

For Christians, a similar dilemma emerges:

“God does not impose his way on us. He gives us the chance to choose him as Lord.”

That’s consistent with scripture:

• Matthew 7:12 – “So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.”

• Luke 22:25–26 – “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them… But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves.”

By voting to enact laws that align with our religious beliefs or choosing the lesser of two evils, are we not contradicting this core tenet of free will and Jesus’ call to serve rather than rule?

The Corrupting Nature of Political Power

Our discussion revealed how the very act of seeking political office often attracts individuals with troubling personality traits:

“The traits to make a successful politician are right on with what psychopaths are. There’s a large percentage of politicians and business owners… who are actually psychopaths.”

This sobering reality forces us to question whether participating in such a system aligns with our values. Are we inadvertently empowering those least suited to wield authority over others?

Reframing Our Civic Engagement

Rather than viewing voting as our primary means of effecting change, Jeb suggests a radical shift in perspective:

“One thing I won’t be doing is voting or attempting to force my way on others. Instead, I will follow the Golden Rule and treat others the way I want them to treat me.”

This approach challenges us to find more direct, personal ways of living out our values and influencing our communities. It asks us to lead by example rather than coercion.

3 Ways Christians Can Engage Without Voting

Stepping away from the ballot box doesn’t mean apathy — it can actually free us to pursue more Christlike, effective forms of engagement:

1. Invest in Relationships

• Instead of dividing over red vs. blue, break bread with neighbors across the spectrum.

• Real conversations build bridges where political shouting matches burn them.

2. Serve in Voluntary Community Initiatives

• Join or start projects that meet needs without waiting for government programs — food co-ops, mutual aid, church-led charity.

• This models the early church in Acts 2:44–45.

3. Teach and Model the Alternative

• Share resources that explain why voting contradicts both the Golden Rule and libertarian non-aggression.

• Encourage others to question whether the ballot box truly aligns with Christ’s way of peace.

For more on how the early church lived differently from the empire, see our episode on Tertullian and political disengagement and our blog post on No King but Christ.

What We Learned About Voting and Values

This episode challenges us to critically examine our assumptions about civic duty and political engagement. It asks us to consider whether our current methods of participation truly align with our deepest held beliefs.

For Christians, it prompts reflection on how we can best emulate Christ’s example of servant leadership and respect for individual choice. For libertarians, it pushes us to more fully embrace the non-aggression principle — even when it comes to the ballot box.

Ultimately, this conversation invites us all to reimagine what responsible citizenship looks like in a world where voting may do more harm than good. It challenges us to find more authentic, impactful ways of living out our values and contributing to the betterment of society.

Listen to the full episode to explore: how might stepping away from voting change your approach to civic engagement? What new opportunities for positive influence might emerge?

Let’s continue this crucial dialogue and work toward a more voluntary, compassionate society one that truly respects the dignity and autonomy of every individual.

🤝Connect with JEB SMITH:

• Jeb's Books:

  • Defending the Middle Ages: Little Known Truths About the Crusades, Inquisitions, Medieval Women, and More

  • Missing Monarchy: Correcting Misconceptions About The Middle Ages, Medieval Kingship, Democracy, And Liberty

  • The Road Goes Ever On and On : A New Perspective on J. R. R. Tolkien and Middle-earth

  • Defending Dixieland

• Fanmail and Hate mail via email: jackson18611096@gmail.com

• Jeb's Article: Is Libertarianism Consistent with Voting?

Episode Timestamps:

(0:41) Libertarianism and Voting Consistency

• “Live and let live” vs. majority rule

• Concern: Christians voting to place rulers over neighbors

(1:51) Guest Update: Jeb Smith’s Recent Work

• Defending Dixie’s Land reissued by Shotwell Publishing
  Articles with Libertarian Institute and Libertarian Christian Institute

(2:50) Libertarian Voting Paradox

• Why informed libertarians still vote

• Habit, protest voting, and misunderstandings of libertarian philosophy

(4:04) Historical Voting Patterns and Motivations

• Jeb’s past protest votes (Libertarian)

• Reflection: voting often unexamined as a social default

(5:43) Libertarian Electoral Success and Philosophical Consistency

• If Libertarians won: risk of imposing on dissenting minorities

• Tension with non-aggression and consent

(7:34) Voting as Legitimizing Corrupt Systems

• Withholding participation vs. “lesser of two evils”

• Note on turnout; argument for withdrawing support

(9:40) The Nature of Political Power and Authority

• Critique: democratic “authority” without true consent

• Coercion mechanisms: taxation, enforcement, military

(12:07) Fear and Coercion in State Power

• Fear as unifying tool of large states
  Thought experiment: local secession and central pushback

(14:37) Christian and Libertarian Approaches to Governance

• “Make the state Christian/libertarian” still relies on force

• Emphasis on consent and free will

(19:06) Democracy and Bullying

• Framing: democracy as tax-funded coercion

• Politics alters behavior; hardens attitudes

(22:23) Political Involvement and Dehumanization

• Media demonization cycles

• Immigration/ICE example raised as moral test of neighbor-love

(27:01) Disengagement from Politics

• Unplugging from news → lower stress, clearer thinking

• Better interpersonal relationships

(30:28) Voting as Participation in War

• Casting a ballot likened to joining a conflict of control

• Incompatibility with libertarian non-aggression and Jesus’ kingdom ethic

(34:10) Secularization of Christianity through Politics

• Enforcing faith via state power vs. Christ’s model of service/consent

• Biblical concern: another “king” between us and neighbor

(36:16) The Corrupting Nature of Political Power

• Campaign incentives: compromise and ambition

• Preference for servant leadership over power-seeking

(40:08) Psychopathy in Politics and Business

• Claim: politics attracts control-oriented personalities

• Risk: concentrated power amplifies harm

(42:29) The Golden Rule and Political Non-Participation

• Jeb’s stance: no voting; no forcing others

• Reported outcomes: improved relationships; reduced stress

(47:54) Additional Resources and Contact Information

• Books noted; open invite for dialogue

• Direction to further critiques of democracy

---

Related Episodes

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138. The Anatomy of the Statist: Unmasking the Mindset Behind Government Support with Patrick Carroll

Ever wondered why some people cling so tightly to the idea of government, even when faced with its glaring flaws? In this episode of the Bad Roman Podcast, we dive deep into the psychology of statism with Patrick Carroll, a brilliant thinker and writer who's been challenging the status quo for years.

Carroll's insights are like a splash of cold water to the face of conventional wisdom. He doesn't just critique government supporters – he dissects their motivations with surgical precision. And trust us, what he reveals will make you question everything you thought you knew about politics and society.

The Statist's Playbook: 10 Characteristics You Need to Know

Carroll breaks down the statist mindset into 10 distinct characteristics. It's like he's giving us a field guide to spot government supporters in the wild. But here's the kicker – it's not about judging them. It's about understanding why they think the way they do, so we can have more productive conversations and maybe, just maybe, change some minds.

1. The Humanitarian: The Road to Hell is Paved with Good Intentions

You know that friend who's always talking about how we need more government programs to help the poor? That's the humanitarian statist. Their heart's in the right place, but their solution is all wrong.

Carroll nails it when he says:

"The humanitarian impulse is great. Obviously, I also care about helping people. But I think it's important when we're trying to address why someone is pro-government to wrestle with the fact that they have a really compelling reason in their mind."

Here's the thing – we all want to help people. But using government force to do it? That's like trying to perform surgery with a sledgehammer. It might get the job done, but at what cost?

2. The Egalitarian: When Equality Becomes Tyranny

Ever heard someone say, "It's not fair that some people have so much more than others"? That's the egalitarian statist talking. They see inequality as inherently unjust and think the government should level the playing field.

But as Carroll points out:

"Even if we agree that maybe there's some value in creating a certain amount of equality in society, is that something that we should be coercing?"

It's a tough pill to swallow, but sometimes the cure is worse than the disease. Forced equality often leads to less prosperity for everyone.

3. The Paternalist: Big Brother Knows Best

This one's a doozy. The paternalist statist thinks they know what's best for you better than you do. They're the ones pushing for laws to ban "dangerous" foods or regulate every aspect of your life "for your own good."

Carroll hits the nail on the head:

"It's this very kind of self-righteous attitude of 'I know best, or you know, the government, us and our experts know best and don't worry, we're just going to take care of you.'"

Newsflash: Adults don't need a nanny state. We're capable of making our own decisions, thank you very much.

4. The Special Interest Group Member: Looking Out for Number One

This statist is all about using government power to benefit their group. Whether it's farmers lobbying for subsidies or corporations pushing for regulations that crush their competition, it's all about gaming the system.

Carroll doesn't pull any punches:

"It’s like you're telling me that you're willing to forcibly coerce other people purely so that you can financially benefit. How is that different from a thief going up to a guy in the street and holding a gun and saying, give me your wallet?"

Ouch. But he's not wrong. Using government force to line your own pockets is theft with extra steps.

5. The Risk Mitigator: Safety at Any Cost

Gun control advocates often fall into this category. They're so focused on reducing risk that they're willing to sacrifice freedom in the process.

Carroll offers a brilliant reframe:

"We live in a dangerous world, and that sucks. And definitely, I believe in systems like insurance to mitigate risk. I think mitigating risk is important. But we shouldn't be coercing people into mitigating risks."

Safety is important, but at what point does the cure become worse than the disease?

6. The Utilitarian: The Greatest Good for the Greatest Number?

This statist believes in maximizing social welfare through government intervention. They talk about "market failures" and think the state can fix them.

Carroll's skepticism is spot-on:

"I really question whether we can do any objective kind of social welfare calculations... And so I'm very skeptical of this idea that we can measure social welfare, let alone have the government come in and optimize it."

Even if you could measure social welfare, does that justify using force to achieve it?

7. The Theocrat: Legislating Morality, Putting more “Christians” in Office

Some statists, especially in religious circles, believe it's their duty to use government power to enforce moral or religious values.

Carroll offers a powerful counterargument:

"Is it really Christian to force morality on people? I totally understand the drive, but I would encourage Christians to really study the Bible and look at this."

Forcing virtue at gunpoint isn't virtuous at all.

8. The Resigned Follower: It's Just the Way Things Are

This statist has given up. They might agree with libertarian principles in theory, but they think a voluntary society is impossible.

Carroll's response is inspiring:

"I don't share that pessimism... I think we just need to look at history to have faith in the market."

Just because something hasn't been done yet doesn't mean it's impossible.

9. The Megalomaniac: Power for Power's Sake

Some people just love having power over others. It's a sad reality, but these statists exist.

Carroll's advice is simple:

"I think we just need to gang up on those people and tell them no, like, sorry, you're not going to get your way and you're not going to use us as pawns."

No elaboration needed. Power-hungry individuals have no place in a free society.

10. The Intolerant: The Heart of Statism

This is the core of the statist mentality. All the other characteristics boil down to this:

"At the end of the day, the conclusion is, I am going to be intolerant of you living your life as you see fit. I'm going to force you to comply with my value system and my personal beliefs. And that is something that every statist shares by definition."

It's a harsh truth, but an important one. Statism, at its core, is about forcing others to live according to your values. It's not about left vs. right. It's about whether you're willing to use force to make others live the way you think they should.

What We Learned About the Statist Mindset

This episode is a wake-up call. It challenges us to examine our own beliefs about government and ask some tough questions:

• Are we truly tolerant if we support using force to make others live as we think they should?

• Can we achieve our goals of helping others and creating a better society without resorting to government coercion?

• Are we willing to apply the same moral standards to government actions that we apply to individuals?

The answers might make you uncomfortable. But that discomfort is the first step towards a more consistent and ethical worldview.

Ready to have your mind blown? Listen to the full episode and prepare to see the world in a whole new light. And remember – questioning the status quo isn't just rebellious. It's necessary for a free and just society.

🤝Connect with Patrick:

• Blog

• Facebook Page

• Twitter (X), 

• The Prudent Navigator (website/blog)

• Read Patrick’s Mises Institute Articles

• Read or Listen to The Anatomy of a Statist article

Episode Timestamps:

(0:22) Patrick Carroll returns to discuss "The Anatomy of the Statist"

• Exploration of the Statist mentality and its challenges

• Previous appearances on episodes 16 and 55

• Episode 16: If You Vote You Can’t Complain

• Episode 55: Is Taxation Slavery?

(0:58) Patrick's recent work and philosophical journey

• Managing editor at Foundation for Economic Education

• Focus on economics, policy, and libertarian philosophy

• Influence of thinkers like Nietzsche, Rothbard, and classical liberals

(4:17) Discussion on Patrick's writing style and approach

• Larken Rose on the Bad Roman

• Episode 83: The Cult of Statism 

• Episode 91: Breaking Down the Jones Plantation

• Episode 134: Immigration and Christian Values: Challenging the Border Fetish Brigade

• Emphasis on direct, matter-of-fact communication

• Importance of consistency in thinking and living out principles

(5:47) The appeal of libertarian philosophy

• Internal consistency and principled approach

• Rejection of exceptions to moral principles

(7:45) Breaking the framing of political conversations

• Libertarianism as a refreshing alternative to left-right dichotomy

• Questioning cultural assumptions about government

(10:37) The Anatomy of the Statist: 10 characteristics

• Humanitarian impulse and its relation to statism

• Egalitarian motivations for government intervention

(17:47) The utilitarian perspective on government

• Market failure arguments and social welfare calculations

• Skepticism towards government optimization of social welfare

(23:17) The theocrat and Christian involvement in politics

• Critique of using government to enforce Christian morality

• Biblical perspective on non-interference and servant leadership

(31:41) The risk mitigator and government regulation

• Gun control as an example of risk mitigation through legislation

• Alternative approaches to risk management without coercion

(53:57) The megalomaniac and power dynamics of government

• Addressing those who seek power for its own sake

• Importance of resisting authoritarian tendencies

(56:24) The heart of the statist: intolerance

• Common thread of compelling others to live by one's values

• Contrast with libertarian principles of live and let live

(59:52) Taxation as theft: beyond metaphor

• Clarifying the libertarian position on taxation

• Ethical implications of equating taxation with common theft

(1:03:43) Free market principles and conservative inconsistencies

• Critique of tariffs and government regulation

• Importance of genuine free market understanding

(1:05:31) Conclusion and resources

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136. Critical Thinking in the Age of Government Control with Jeffrey Hann

The Fallacious Belief in Government: Unmasking the Illusion of State Control

Are you ready to challenge everything you thought you knew about government and freedom? In this eye-opening episode of the Bad Roman Podcast, we dive deep into the heart of statism with author and researcher Jeffrey Hann. His latest book, The Fallacious Belief in Government: Warp Speed Toward Tyranny, exposes the dangerous myths we've been fed about the necessity of state control.

As we unpack the layers of government deception, you'll discover:

• Why critical thinking is deliberately suppressed in public education.

• How psychological operations keep us trapped in a cycle of fear and obedience.

• The true nature of government as a tool of control over the innocent.

• Why voting can't save us from the inevitable march toward tyranny.

• How embracing anarchist principles could be our path to genuine freedom.

Prepare to have your assumptions challenged and your perspective transformed. This isn't just another political discussion – it's a wake-up call for anyone who values true liberty.

The Critical Thinking Crisis

What if our education system is deliberately designed to create "literacy slaves" – people smart enough to work, but not equipped to think critically about the world around them? Jeffrey breaks down how the classical trivium and Prussian education models have shaped generations of minds:

"You have the classical trivium that really creates literacy slaves that are smart enough to work, but not smart enough to think for themselves. The another model that the US picked up was the Prussian education system. The Prussian education system was designed by the Prussians after their military and mercenaries lost against Napoleon. And their parliament decided and determined that it was because soldiers were thinking for themselves."

This systematic suppression of independent thought isn't an accident – it's a feature of the system designed to maintain control. By understanding the three pillars of critical thinking – grammar, logic, and rhetoric – we can begin to break free from this mental prison.

The Psychological Warfare Playbook

Government control goes far beyond the classroom. Jeffrey exposes the insidious world of psychological operations (psyops) used to manipulate public perception and behavior:

"And if you're unaware of that, it just seeps in and it causes a psychological effect so that you struggle at trying to make real informed decisions, making you easier to control and manipulate."

From manufactured crises to carefully crafted narratives, these tactics keep us in a constant state of fear and compliance. By recognizing these strategies, we can start to see through the illusion and reclaim our mental autonomy.

The True Nature of Government

From democracy to tyranny - is it inevitable? Hann walks us through Plato's five regimes and why he thinks we're headed for a fall. 

At its core, Jeffrey argues that government is nothing more than "a tool or action of control over the innocent." This fundamental truth challenges the very foundation of what most people believe about the role of the state in society:

"The true nature of government is tyrannical… just looking at the word government itself, it's a tool or action of control over the innocent. And I always classify that. ‘Over the innocent’ is why it makes it tyrannical because that, if you're being controlled and you haven't committed a crime, created a victim, then your rights are being violated."

This perspective forces us to confront uncomfortable questions about the legitimacy of state power and the true meaning of concepts like "law" and "justice."

The Illusion of Political Solutions

If you're pinning your hopes on the next election to solve society's problems, Jeffrey has a sobering message:

"There's no voting our way out of it. Tyranny is just gonna progress further and further. Trump and Musk are implementing Agenda 2030 and ushering in the Great Reset."

He argues that the political system itself is designed to perpetuate control, regardless of which party or individual is in power. This cycle of tyranny can't be broken through conventional means – it requires a fundamental shift in how we think about governance and freedom.

Embracing Anarchist Principles

So what's the alternative? Jeffrey advocates for a form of anarchism based on voluntary interactions and respect for natural rights:

"Anarchism is a system or practice of no rulers, voluntary action and absence of government over the innocent, based on natural rights, life, freedom and property. That is the, the most succinct definition I can provide of what anarchy is and that there's no middle ground."

This isn't about chaos or disorder – it's about creating systems that respect individual autonomy while allowing for voluntary cooperation. It's a radical reimagining of how society could function without coercive state control.

What We Learned About Freedom and Government

This conversation with Jeffrey Hann challenges us to question our deepest assumptions about the role of government in our lives. By exposing the fallacious belief in state control, we open the door to new possibilities for genuine freedom and voluntary cooperation.

Key takeaways:

• Critical thinking is a skill that can be developed, despite systemic efforts to suppress it.

• Psychological operations are constantly at work to maintain our compliance – awareness is the first step to resistance.

• Government, by its very nature, is a tool of control over the innocent.

• Political solutions within the current system cannot address the fundamental problems of state tyranny.

• Embracing anarchist principles based on voluntary interaction and natural rights offers a path forward.

Are you ready to challenge your beliefs and explore a new vision of freedom? Listen to the full episode for an in-depth exploration of these ideas and practical steps you can take to reclaim your autonomy. Remember, true change begins with how we think about the world around us. It's time to break free from the mental chains of statism and embrace a future of genuine liberty.

Connect with Jeffery:

Get His Books:

• COVID-19: A Short Path to You'll Own Nothing and You'll Be Happy (2023)

• The Fallacious Belief in Government: Warp Speed Toward Tyranny (2025)

Connect with Jeffrey Hann on social:

• X (Twitter): @JeffreyHann

• Instagram: @Jeffrey.A.Hann

• YouTube: JREV Music

Listen to the Music:

• "Fallacious Belief in Government" album on YouTube

• "Militant Anarchist" album on YouTube

• Also available on streaming platforms like Spotify, Apple Music, and Pandora

Explore his Website:

• Journalistic Revolution: journalisticrevolution.com

• Instagram: @journalisticrevolution

Facebook: Journalistic Revolution

Episode Timestamps:

(2:01) Jeffrey's recent projects

• Music production and album releases

• Focus on conveying philosophical beliefs through music

(3:01) Critical thinking and government belief

• Challenges in getting people to question their faith in government

• Importance of critical thinking skills in today's society

(4:30) Personal journey of changing beliefs

• Discomfort in realizing one's previous beliefs were wrong

• Importance of being open to new perspectives

(6:06) Psychological operations and fear

• Discussion on the use of fear by governments

• Historical context of psychological operations

(8:34) Life cycle of government

• Exploration of Plato's five regimes

• Inevitability of tyranny in governmental systems

(20:36) Democracy and its flaws

• Critique of democracy as majority rule

• Discussion on the misuse of the term in modern politics

(25:23) Anarchism and its principles

• Definition and exploration of anarchist philosophy

• Importance of voluntary interactions and absence of rulers

(37:35) Roads argument and government justification

• Common arguments for government necessity

• Critique of government efficiency in infrastructure

(42:05) Hope and the need for societal evolution

• Discussion on the potential for positive change

• Importance of creating content to spread ideas

(47:55) Jeffrey's resources and future projects

• Overview of books, articles, and music

• Upcoming work on plasma cosmology

(49:20) Conclusion and call to action

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73. Foster Care, Adoption and the Church: 2022 Year End Round Table

About this Episode

It’s time for the year-end round table! Episode 57 on Foster Care, Adoption & the Church was a hit, so we are revisiting the theme of foster care, adoption, and the church while adding new voices. Our guests are Darren Freidinger, Amber Nelson, and Jessica Autrey, each has fostered and/or adopted children including special needs children and international adoptions. In this episode, we discuss ways in which churches and individuals can practically care for orphans and their families ensuring vulnerable children will grow up in loving families.

Our guests are here to share their experiences with the state, private adoption agencies, and churches. If you have ever considered adoption, this episode is a must! And if you haven’t ever considered adopting or fostering, this episode is still a must, as our guests are passionate advocates for children and want to see more placements in Christian homes.

If our guests cannot convince you to foster or adopt, you will still be given food for thought as we ask questions like: What do Christian anarchists think about the state being involved with vulnerable children? Is adoption easier through the state or private adoption agencies? How many families are willing and waiting to adopt children? Why are churches not ensuring children have healthy and safe homes? What can Christians do to help families rearing adopted children?

Connect with Jay:

Amber Nelson’s fan page

Episode Timestamps:

1:05 - Guest introductions

• Darren

• Returning guest from episode 57

• Popular episode with good response

• Two adopted daughters

• Fostering 3 younger children, waiting to begin their adoption processes

• Jessica

• Eight children, 3 are adopted from Ukraine in 2011

• Amber

• Music Teacher in public school

• Three sons

8:15 – How do we feel about the state being involved in child foster care?

• Craig: 

• Doesn’t like the state being involved in child protection

• Darren: 

• As bad as the situation is for children right now, the state made the right call on the girls in his care

• Christ following parents need to be involved

• The church could do better than the state

• Amber: 

• The children of addicts and mental health problems need better equipped helpers.

• Child safety is top priority

• As a schoolteacher, she saw that the caseworkers were so overwhelmed that referrals did not help suspected abused children

• Jessica: 

• Real cases fall through the cracks

• But when parents make decisions such as not vaccinating them, the state may become involved

• Wanted to adopt from her first child to ensure children had the love she wanted to give her son

• Saw a blog about the conditions of special needs orphans in Eastern Europe

• Special needs children are discarded

• Orphanage care is patchy, but especially terrible for special-needs children

• Experience in helping people with Downs Syndrome

22:09 – Roe v Wade

• When people are happy about the overturning, they should be willing to adopt kids

• It is easier to adopt children from other countries because the US government interferes

• It took Amber a year to get a license to adopt

• There are a lot of arbitrary rules that change between case-workers

• There are invasions of privacy while you foster

• The state is an obstacle to adoption

• There is a waiting list for adopting infants

• The children come with traumas

• Roe v Wade did not end abortion, just sent the decision back to the states

• It’s just politics

• Older children, sibling groups or those born with health issues face barriers to adoption

33:20 – Adoption and the church

• Why are churches not ensuring children have healthy and safe homes?

• Craig has never heard it in church

• When Amber has heard it is has been an addendum to the service

• The Baptist church sometimes runs training for foster parents

• There’s no sermons about it

• Darren’s experience in church has been hit-and-miss

• His church has a November adoption month

• Darren wants individuals helping families adopting children

• Babysit the children and let the parents go shopping

• Hang out with parents with eight children

• Have an adult conversation

• At least don’t judge or ask silly questions

• Amber had some good experiences of help from individuals

• Jessica has not seen adoption preached

• Christians helped Jessica to make the adoption process happen through donations

• Now attends a pro-adoption church

47:21 – Is the state still involved in private adoptions?

• Yes, there is paperwork and administrative processes

• Even privately there is a mountain of paperwork

• In Darren’s experience fostering through the state was easier

• But the state is involved to an intimate degree though

52:30 – What can individuals do to help families with adopted children?

• Jessica:

• Voice your support for families with adopted or fostered children

•  Tell them if you are praying for them

• Don’t give useless advice

• Do give hand-me-downs

• Just show up and play with the kids or give adult conversations

• Show up to fundraisers and get the word out

• Amber:

• Think about what the kids go through, then consider adopting

• Do laundry, that would help

• Darren:

• Agrees with Jessica and Amber

• Consider adopting or fostering

• The children need Christians

• Take someone a meal when they take charge of their children

• Take the kids to the park for an hour

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72. Christian Nationalism: Waging an Unholy War with Jay Newman

About this Episode

Jay Newman from Catacomb Podcasts joins Craig to discuss voting and Christian nationalism. Jay’s day job is pitmaster at Shotgun Willie’s Barbecue in Nashville, and he also runs his own barbecue catering service, Newman Family Barbecue. When he’s not transforming meat into award-winning tasty goodness, Jay bravely ventures into the culture wars on Twitter. While debating Christian nationalists and exposing their beliefs, he’s been accused of “reading too much evangelical pop theology” from those caught up in the military mindset of taking the reigns of power to expand the physical territories of the gospel.

Although George Bush was blasted for using the term “crusade” in the early 2000s, Christians are arming themselves for the new crusades and crying out for “jihads for Jesus”. This is the natural progression of Christian nationalism and does not look like what Jesus wants from His followers. Jesus was a pacifist and not interested in using the mechanics of state power to achieve the bringing of His Kingdom. When He came to earth, Jesus rejected the opportunity to reign over earthly kingdoms and allowed His enemies to kill Him. 

The early church understood this and were also anti-state pacifists. Even after the church and state became friends with Constantine, attempting to grab state power has never worked well for Christians. Jay would prefer Christians leave state control to non-Christians. In truth, any Christian who tries to exercise power antithetical to the Kingdom will have to deal with their inherent hypocrisy.

Connect with Jay:

Instagram: Newman Family BBQ

Podcast: Catacomb Podcasts

Episode Timestamps:

2:48 – Who is Jay Newman?

• BBQ Pit Manager

• Transforming meat into beautiful goodness

• Thinker and Writer

• Contrarian

• Doubting and testing new ideas

• Multi-cultural ties

• Brazilian and French family members

• Pastor’s kid

• Parents appalled by the merging of church and state

• No party loyalty

• Felt lied to by Bush after 9/11

• Learnt what politics does to people watching Mike Hukabee

• He drastically changed

• Became more Republican than Christian

• He sold out

• Ron Paul 2012

• Realized the whole thing is rigged

13:50 - Are you morally culpable for who you vote for? 

• People sanitize their favourite candidates 

• Society seems to have accepted that you are morally culpable for the actions of your candidates

• No nuance in liking some, but not all of a candidate’s policies

• All politicians commit atrocities

• Drones

• Aiding the rich and oppressing the poor

• None are consistent with Jesus

• Then who can we vote for?

• What power is there in voting?

• Maybe its time that all Christians stopped being a voting block

• Politicians would stop quoting scripture

• Politicians would stop pretending to care about Christian things

• Anarchy and Christian anarchy are separate issues

16:50 – Is voting a sin?

• Craig says yes

• If rejecting God is not a sin, then what is?

• The early church’s response to the Roman Empire

• Jay won’t judge others

• Sin comes from an individual’s intentions

• One can vote with a clean conscience

• Through being detached from outcomes

• Daniel was not removed from the state where he lived

• Christians should have a loud opinion on the state’s injustices

• Life in society means you have some influence

• Political influence is a part of that

• Jay leaves room for those who believe that working in the state is where God wants them

• It will probably corrupt them

• Historically it typically goes bad

• Why risk it?

• Perhaps people need to figure it out on their own

• Craig can’t force people into believing the same as himself

• People become more entrenched in their places if forced

• We’ve been electing Christians since the founding of the US

• Things are still getting progressively worse

• The country is an Idiocracy

• The upside of Trump being elected is it exposes the cultural Christians

• Baptist church choir “Make America Great Again”

• Nationalism was a sin of Israel

• Christians advocate repeating Israel’s folly

• Christians call themselves “Christian Nationalists”

• Christians should repent of putting people in power 

• America has killed a holocaust of people

• Killed children in Yemen

32:41 – Are we Americans or Christians first?

• Who is the biggest enemy of Americans?

• The biggest threat is the American government

• The largest church growth is happening in Iran, China and Russia

• The interests of the American state are opposed to the Kingdom

• Christians are thriving in places of persecution

• Christians should be more loyal to the church family than their national goals

• The US is sanctioning them, making life harder for Christians

• The populations of those nations are not our enemies

• We should be pro Christians in other states more than our national borders

36:06 – Jesus was not a statist

• Jesus was a snark

• All anarchists are snarks

• The leaders tried to trap Him 

• Everything belongs to God

• Pay your taxes to be a good citizen

• Trust God for financial provision

• It’s good for the gospel

• Don’t make decisions out of fear of lack of resources

• When you need money, He will give it to you

• When you put your trust in Him

• Jesus was passive-aggressive towards the state

• He turned down ruling the state when the devil offered it

• Why would Christians want to try it?

44:13 – Twitter conversations

• A pastor once said: “Start taking hills for Christ”

• Military terminology

• Jay’s response: “You take hills by dying; that’s what Jesus did”

• Jesus came to bring peace to the world

• The opposite of military actions

• Christians seem nervous about what would happen if Christians wielded power

• More than infidels, pagans and demons having political power

• Defending the crusades and name calling

• The early church were all pacifists and anti-state

55:39 – Spiritual warfare versus worldly warfare

• Jay sang on hills in India that had never heard the praises of God

• That’s how to take hills for Christ in the spiritual realm

• Not with military might, not physical territory

• Nations are a group of people with a common cause

• Christian nationalists want control of the state for Christians

• This has never worked before

• People agree with “jihad for Jesus”

• People want to take physical territory for Christ

• And enemy nations

• Christians arming themselves for the next crusades

• This is the logical conclusion for Christian nationalism

• We should be considering ourselves exiles rather than citizens

• The political system doesn’t give us a real say

• If Jesus was alive today, who would he vote for?

• Kings don’t vote

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71. Agorism is Practical Anarchy with Lily Forester

About this Episode

Lily Forester, of HBO’s “The Anarchists” documentary series fame, joins Craig to discuss freedom, anarchism, and agorism. Lily is a trailblazer of agorist activity, putting anarchist and agorist ideas into action in her own life.  She was a part of the Fireweed Universe City anarchist community in Detroit until her and her boyfriend John moved to Mexico and joined the Anarchapulco community. She ran a restaurant and farm from her house until John was killed in a shooting. These days she keeps herself busy training in circus arts, crocheting custom orders, blogging, building websites, and working with Anarchapulco and Anarchoforko.  

Craig and Lily discuss their frustrations with self-proclaimed anarchists who don’t act like anarchists. Both the ones that go back to the Libertarian Party to try to work through the state and the ones who abuse the title, complicating explanations of anarchist philosophy. Craig and Lily define the term agorist and discuss where it overlaps with anarchist as well as the differences. Where anarchists may shy away agorists tend to follow through on anarchist activities. They are the ones asking themselves how far they are willing to go and using their skills to build healthy communities of voluntary exchanges. Lily gives some advice on becoming an agorist, how to find an agorist community and using crypto-currency.

Where to find Lily:

• Website

• TikTok

• Instagram

• Personal Facebook

• Highly Functional Growth Community Facebook

Episode Timestamps:

5:15 – Who is Lily Forester?

• Girl with a fake name

  • Arrested for cannabis related stuff in Ohio

• Raised by agorists: practical anarchists

  • Mother was actively a fugitive in Ohio

• On the fringe of the Anarchapulco community

• Started Anarchoforko

• Had a restaurant and farm at her house

• Boyfriend murdered in 2019

• Trains in circus arts

• Features in “The Anarchists” documentary

7:58 – Frustrated with anarchists

• Why do anarchists go back to working with libertarian parties?

  • Anarchists should be principled

    • When they aren’t, Craig is disappointed

    • This drew him to Lily’s words in The Anarchists

  • Anarchapulco in The Anarchists seemed to be all about partying

• Shed the term anarchist for agorist

• Fireweed Universe-City in Detroit is the most truly anarchist community Lily has lived in

  • Fixing abandoned houses

  • Growing food

  • Community garden

• Agorists are practicing anarchy

  • Changing their lives

  • Unlicensed businesses

• Winters in Detroit were hard, so Anarchapulco was appealing

• Anarchists don’t all live their stated philosophy

  • When times get hard, some go back to the state

    • Or run for President

  • Some use the label to treat people poorly

    • “Don’t tell me what to do, I’m an anarchist.”

    • Manipulating people

• Anarchists that believe the ideas and try to practice have overlap with agorists

  • They will face hardship

18:04 – Anarchists paying taxes

• Anarchists do not “pay taxes” they are forcefully taken

  • It’s self-defence

  • It’s not voluntary

  • No one wants to live in a cage

• Anarchists who run for office are not anarchists

• Elections are like the movie “Groundhog Day”

• Lily campaigned for Ron Paul

  • Became an anarchist after he failed

  • Craig was booing him off stage 

• It’s hard to take anarchists seriously when they discus changing laws or using the libertarian party

• What Donald Trump calls anarchy is not anarchy

• Explaining the actions of some self-proclaimed anarchists is not easy

  • Complicates explanations of anarchy

• Agorists tend to shy away from calling themselves anarchists for this reason

• Agorists build healthy communities through:

  • Using their skills

  • Voluntary interactions

• Agorists need to ask themselves:

  • What laws are they willing to break?

  • How far are they willing to test the IRS?

• Anarchists say stop paying taxes and don’t vote

  • Don’t always follow-up

• The mark of a good community is how they respond to crisis

  • When John was killed agorists were there for Lily

  • Anarchopulco failed

    • They were a bunch of broken people calling themselves anarchists

    • They couldn’t get along with each other

  • When the police were called they took everything from Lily

    • Her dogs

    • Solar panels

    • Vehicles

  • In the US police conduct “Asset Forfeiture” and do the same

• Barry Cooper ex-cop fled the US and founded NeverGetBusted

• Anarchists are suspicious of police officers

  • Craig had an ex-officer on the show

  • They protect politician’s laws

33:04 – How to become an agorist

• Replace goods and services with people who are agorists

  • Directory: https://www.agoristnexus.com/

• Do what makes you happy, produce things

  • Accept payments in crypto currency

• Buy from people who are building the counterculture

• Cryptocurrency

  • Monero

  • Find ways to transact without having to turn it into fiat currencies

  • A tool to send and receive money that may hide your identity

  • Behaves like a regular market with booms and busts

  • Is unregulatable

    • Decentralised and worldwide

  • A stepping stone to seeing the state collapse

  • The IRS can’t see it

  • Buying and selling services with agorists

  • Crypto wallets are untraceable with a VPN

  • Some businesses accept it

  • There is a whole community building and using it

44:56 – Spirituality

• Psychedelics have been a part of Lily’s journey

• Prayer works

• No face or name or doctrine or worship

  • There is something out there who helps good people

  • People personify the unexplainable

  • Something is keeping Lily out of jail

• The world is not completely random

• Human Design

  • Focus on being good people

  • Doing things in ways that use your best modes

  • Makes life easier

• A taro reading suggested a female lawyer would help and then one contacted her

• Jesus said to love your neighbor and love your enemy

• Lily got involved with Anarchopulco and they went from enemy to friend

  • Building what she wants to see

  • Now there are more people from various religious camps now

  • No more drunken parties, like in the past

  • Bringing people together who are actually doing stuff

  • More families, chill people, and business people come now

55:37 – Food

• Lily’s guac recipe

• Mexican guac is just avocado, cilantro, white onion, jalapeno, salt, and lime

  • Tastes cheesy

• Texans believe beans don’t belong in chili

• White people are the worst

• Hot dogs go on every food in Acapulco

1:02:35 – Close the interview

• Anti-Politics – Sal Mayweather

• Highlyfunctionalgrowth.com

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69. From angry An-Cap to peaceful Christian with John Krueger

About this Episode

Craig is joined by John Krueger for a conversation about his journey from being an angry Anarcho-Capitalist to a peaceful Anarcho-Christian. Unjust police killings, SWAT raids gone wrong and harsh lockdowns made John angry. He was eager to learn how to use a gun and imagined himself needing to protect his family from police violence. In the midst of this, the Holy Spirit met John and showed him a peaceful option.

Libertarian philosophy is peaceful, but we need Jesus and His word to have the whole picture. Craig and John advocate for Christian pacifism and examine what was going on in their hearts at the points when they both contemplated joining the military. Craig and John discuss the libertarian and Christian anarchist positions on the decriminalization of drugs, the real needs of terrorists, the US at war, gun control, and other contentious current issues.

The state is coercion and violence. Laws are enforced with fines that are begrudgingly paid to avoid the threat of violence or time spent in a cage. You cannot make people peaceful like this, using the state’s methods. But rather, we need to be those who allow the Holy Spirit to work in us to change the hearts and minds of those surrounding us; that is how social change works in the Kingdom. Let’s listen to Jesus and do things His way, forsaking violence and anger. Let’s work towards peace.

Connect with John Krueger on

• Practical Christology

• TikTok

Episode Timestamps:

1:27 – Who is John Krueger?

• From Columbus, Ohio

  • Grew up attending church

• 1 Corinthians 5:9-13 stood out

  • Paul writes about grace

• Journey to anarchism

  • Read Blue Like Jazz

    • Jesus was not a republican or a conservative

    • Became politically independent

  • Eventually considered voting

    • Began researching libertarianism

      • Clicked with his understanding of the Grace of God

  • Took a few more years to become an anarcho-capitalist

8:58 – Libertarians, drugs, and terrorists

• It’s easy to understand decriminalizing marijuana 

• Harder to understand decriminalizing heroin use

  • People shouldn’t be locked in a cage for it

  • People should be free to make their own choices

    • Provided they aren’t hurting others

• Osama Bin Laden needed Jesus

  • Not bombs

  • We can’t bomb people into peace

    • If we bomb all sinners, there will be no one left

• John and Craig let go of the war stuff last

  • The history of the Middle East is important

  • The US is still at war

    • More people are mad at the US for continuously bombing them

• Jesus said in His Kingdom:

  • You rule by washing feet

    • Only pagans lord it over their subjects

  • But instead, our “Christian Nation” goes to war

    • To spread democracy

• We don’t need the government for roads

• We don’t need police

• Losing friends because of speaking out about:

  • Getting troops home

  • Veteran suicides

  • Broken men and families

  • Sending the poor to fight a rich man’s war

20:11 – Craig and John considered joining the military

• Craig wanted to kill people out of anger after 911

  • Application rejected

    • 4 pounds over the weight limit

• John wanted to join the military because he felt powerless

  • Wanted to be great in battle - like David

  • Experienced God’s compassion for those killed on both sides

• Christians still justify war and killing

  • Jesus said when you have seen me, you have seen the Father

  • There is nothing about Jesus’ life that says you can kill in war

• Pacifism is the way for Christians

  • Craig still gets a hard time from Christians for his pacifist stance

  • The early church was 100% pacifist

    • Even to their own deaths

  • Jesus healed the Roman soldier and admonished Peter

    • When Jesus disarmed Peter, he disarmed every Christian

26:24 – Libertarians and Gun Control

• After shootings those on the left talk about taking away guns

• But guns will be taken away by force

  • Giving more power to the state

• Need to study history

• We don’t advocate for gun control

  • It’s enforced by violence

  • We should bear God’s peace instead

• The left sees calls to reduce state size as calls to let people starve

• John does not own guns, 

  • Only advocates for less government action

• We don’t use the state for any reason

• The same people who take guns away are those who shoot unarmed black men

• Fines are enforced through the threat of violence

• The ‘hero’ who ended the life of a would-be shooter still ended a life

• Jesus would not be training churches to enact violence

• We are here to bring the gospel to people

37:10 – From angry An-Cap to peaceful Christian Anarchist

• When John was an An-Cap he was angry at the state

  • Police killings made him angry

  • Made him want to get into guns

• Angry at government shutdowns because of shutdowns

• Holy Spirit showed him it would be better to defy the government in peaceful ways

  • Sneakily helping people

  • Blessing those who curse

  • Not needing to worry about what to say in front of judges

• Libertarians are never happy with the government

  • No matter who is in power they are stuffing everything up

  • Anger is not the fruit of the spirit

• Romans 11-14 need to be read together

  • Our heart position should be peaceful

• Libertarians need Jesus to have the full picture

42:48 – Romans 13 and libertarianism

• “Submit” and “obey” are not the same

  • When Christians get it wrong: 

    • They end up supporting government atrocities

    • Lives will be ruined

    • The state becomes an idol

• The early church withheld communion from people who worked for the state

  • Unless people were already soldiers

    • And had sworn off killing or oppressing people

    • None wore their weapons

    • All were to serve

• Getting Christians into power will not help

  • It is no longer Christianity

• The power is the wrong power

  • The Holy Spirit is the only power we need

  • Political power is force

  • Christians do not need to take the ”Seven Mountains” of power

  • These do not sound like Jesus

• Polycarp would not denounce Jesus

  • In the face of his own death

  • King Jesus has never done me any harm

• Everything that the state does harms somebody in some fashion

  • If they are helping you, they are harming someone else

  • The state is not a protector

• Jesus Christ is the only King

  • He wants the best for us

54:12 – How should we pray for government?

• We should pray for government and leaders

  • Craig prays for the state to end

  • The current chaos is caused by the state

  • We need to follow Jesus and walk away

  • John prays for leadership to know the gospel

    • Not the American folklore

    • But the true gospel

• Craig will take the words of the early church fathers over pastors

  • When modern pastors disagree with the early church

  • They still screwed things up

  • They aren’t Jesus

  • They were closer in time to Jesus

  • We need to get back to that

    • What we are doing now as the church is not working

• The Reformers had a blind spot when it came to the church

  • They killed people

• The Anabaptists became the Mennonites and Amish

  • They were peaceful

• Catholics are going back to mysticism

  • The church fathers and grace teachings

1:02:54 – Let’s bring it back to Jesus

• Listen to Jesus

  • Love your neighbor

  • Love your enemy

  • Love God

• It’s impossible to follow His teachings

  • But we should try:

    • Working towards good

    • Not working toward violence

    • Not working towards anger or hate

    • Working towards peace

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