168. Christians in the Middle East: Have We Actually Tried Jesus? with Adam Stump

Adam Stump asked two congregations a pretty simple question.

Did they know there are Christians in Iran?

Not one hand went up.

Then he pushed a little further. Did they know some Christian communities in Iran have existed there for centuries? Did they know Christians live across the Middle East, including places Americans mostly hear about through war reports?

Again, almost nobody knew.

That little church pop quiz gets to the heart of this episode. What happens when Christians in America know more about the governments we are told to fear than the people who actually live under them?

And what happens when some of those people are our brothers and sisters in Christ?

Adam is a pastor with a background in sociology, anthropology, history, archaeology, and a long list of ordinary jobs before full-time ministry.

He also calls himself a “professional gadfly,” he likes asking questions that make comfortable answers harder to hold.

The People Missing From Our Map

For Adam, this did not begin as an academic interest in Middle Eastern history.

His wife started drawing his attention to Iranian Christians in the United States who were facing detention and possible deportation. Adam began reading. Then he began meeting people. He traveled to Washington, D.C., connected with an Iranian pastor and people from World Relief, and started paying closer attention to Christians whose stories rarely made it into his own church world.

What began as information became personal.

“That’s really where it all began with me… this chunk of human suffering that I had not previously been aware of.” — Adam Stump (14:43)

That sentence is uncomfortable because most of us have our own version of it.

There are people suffering right now whom we barely know exist.

It is easy to turn Iran into a word on a map. It becomes a government, a military target, a headline, or an “enemy.” Real people disappear inside the label.

World Relief has documented the struggle of Iranian Christians who fled religious persecution only to face immigration detention in the United States. World Relief — Iranian Christians, asylum, and detention

Once people have names and faces, foreign policy gets harder to discuss like a football game.

Christianity in Iran Is More Complicated Than We Think

Craig admits early in the conversation that he knew very little about Christianity in Iran.

That is probably true for a lot of us.

Adam explains that Iran contains old Armenian and Assyrian Christian communities as well as converts from Islam who often worship in much more dangerous conditions. Some historic Christian communities have a recognized place in Iranian society. Converts meeting in Farsi-speaking house churches can face a very different reality.

That means even the phrase “Christians in Iran” covers several different stories.

It also means the Middle East cannot be reduced to “Muslims over there.”

Christians, Jews, Muslims, and many other communities have shared those lands for centuries. Their history includes terrible persecution, but also ordinary seasons of living beside one another.

Adam makes a point that should be obvious but often is not: an entire country cannot be treated like one person.

Iran is not ninety million copies of its government.

Neither is America.

Can You Liberate Someone With a Bomb?

This is where the conversation turns from ignorance to power.

What happens when the United States says it wants to “liberate” people in another country through military force?

If Christians are already trying to survive quietly in a hostile environment, does bombing their country make them safer? Or can military action by a nation widely identified with Christianity make local Christians look like agents of the enemy?

The question is not whether the Iranian government deserves criticism. Both Craig and Adam are clear that defending human beings in Iran is not the same thing as defending the Iranian state.

The deeper issue is the strange phrase we have heard for decades: bombing for peace.

Adam offers a much simpler alternative.

“We have tried bombs and bullets and it doesn’t work. Why don’t we try love?” — Adam Stump (28:55–29:05)

It almost sounds too simple.

Then again, so does “love your enemies.”

Have We Actually Tried Jesus?

Craig hears Adam say “try love” and asks the question that eventually became the title of the episode:

“Have we actually tried Jesus when it comes to this stuff?” — Craig Harguess (32:12–32:25)

That deserves more than a quick answer.

Christians have tried political parties. We have tried presidents. We have tried military strength. We have tried Christian nations. We have tried laws, campaigns, coalitions, and the promise that the next ruler will finally put things back in order.

Have we tried Jesus?

Not Jesus as a mascot for the state.

Jesus as the man who told Peter to put away his sword.

Jesus as the King who told us to love our enemies and pray for people who persecute us.

Jesus as the Lord of a Kingdom that crosses borders without asking Caesar for permission.

Adam puts it this way:

“Christians ought to be kingdom people before they are… citizens of any country.” — Adam Stump (28:05–28:10)

That does not mean Christians stop caring about the world.

It means we stop letting the state decide whom we are allowed to love.

Because once we know there are Christians, human beings, beneath the bombs, we have to wrestle with Faith.

Once we know the person called an enemy is a mother, pastor, child, Muslim neighbor, or fellow believer, clean political categories start getting messy.

But, life is messy and Jesus calls us to follow him through it with love not fear.

When Politics Uses the Church

Adam calls himself a “recovering Republican.”

He is careful about what he means. He is not saying every conservative idea suddenly became evil. He is talking about the party structure itself and the way political movements can turn religion into a weapon.

“Our political parties in America have really used religion as a weapon… to increase political division rather than increasing unity.” — Adam Stump (45:10–45:30)

Christian nationalism tells us the nation needs Christianity in order to become strong. Jesus seems much more interested in whether Christians are faithful.

Those are not the same goal. A powerful nation can have weak disciples. A politically weak church can still love enemies, feed hungry people, forgive persecutors, welcome strangers, and refuse to kill.

No King but Christ means the church does not need Caesar to make Jesus Lord. He already is.

Constantine's Trade

Eventually Adam reaches back nearly seventeen centuries.

His judgment is strong: one of the worst things to happen to Christianity was Constantine and the rise of Christendom.

Before Christianity gained imperial favor, Christians lived for centuries without controlling Rome. They were sometimes tolerated and sometimes persecuted. They did not have the machinery of empire available to enforce the faith.

Then Christianity gained political power.

Adam argues that something was lost in the trade.

“Even though it grew in political and earthly power, the spiritual power waned.” — Adam Stump (55:48–55:55)

That is worth sitting with. What if political strength and spiritual strength are not the same thing?

What if they can even move in opposite directions?

The church may gain access to rulers and still lose sight of Jesus. It may win a culture war and forget how to love the people on the other side. Empire always offers the church something shiny. Jesus keeps handing us a cross.

People Are Made to Love and Be Loved

One of Adam’s clearest statements comes as the conversation turns back to the people we call enemies.

He does not pretend governments are harmless. He does not pretend violence and injustice are imaginary.

He simply refuses to let those things erase the humanity of ordinary people.

“Those people are all people created in the image of God, and they are actually created to love and be loved.” — Adam Stump (51:40–51:55)

That changes the starting point. We do not begin with, “What does America need from these people?” We begin with, “How does God see them?”

That is harder than nationalism because nationalism gives us categories. Friend. Enemy. Ally. Threat. Citizen. Foreigner. Jesus keeps turning categories back into people.

Get Out of the Bubble

Adam's final advice is refreshingly ordinary: meet somebody.

Talk to Muslims instead of only talking about Muslims. Visit an international grocery store. Meet someone from another country. Ask questions. Listen to how America looks from outside America.

Adam says that when he sees someone attacking Muslims online, he often asks one question:

How many Muslims do you actually know? The answer usually is silence.

His own shift began decades ago when he met Muslim classmates and became their friend. Real relationships made it harder to accept opinions that had simply been handed to him.

And learning cannot stop at “now I know more facts.” It has to change how we live. Adam urges listeners to use whatever influence they have to speak for people who are easier for society to ignore. But he also warns against becoming so angry that nobody can hear us.

“I think that we’re gonna change this thing through relationships.” — Adam Stump (1:10:50–1:11:00)

Maybe changing the world looks less like taking control and more like opening a table. Listening. Learning a name. Refusing to call millions of strangers our enemies. And then trying the strange, difficult thing Jesus told us to do all along: Love them.

Connect with Adam Stump

• Linktree: https://linktr.ee/Pastor.Adam.Stump

• Substack: https://pastoradamstump.substack.com/

• Instagram: https://instagram.com/pastor_adam_stump/

• TikTok: @pastor.adam.stump

• Facebook: https://facebook.com/p/Pastor-Adam-Stump-100095132295636/

• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@PastorAdamStump

• Email: adam.joseph.stump@gmail.com

• Western Pennsylvania UMC Profile: https://wpaumc.org/clergydetail/479051

• Central Highlands UMC: https://wpaumc.org/churchdetail/218250

Highlights & Takeaways

• The Middle East is not one religious block; ancient Christian communities are still part of the region

• Meeting real people can break political categories that survive easily from a distance

• Christian nationalism confuses the worldwide Kingdom of God with the interests of one nation

• “Bombing for peace” deserves special scrutiny from people commanded to love their enemies

• Political power and spiritual power are not the same thing

• The church does not need state power to make Jesus King

• People called “enemies” remain image-bearers created to love and be loved

• Lasting change usually grows through relationships, listening, and honest questions rather than coercion

Listen

Pay attention to Adam’s church pop quiz and the silence that follows. Notice what happens when a political category like “Iran” turns back into real Christians, Muslims, families, pastors, and children.

Reflect

Who have you learned to think of mainly as an enemy? If you knew that person face to face, what might become harder to say about them?

Read

Read Matthew 5:38–48, John 17:20–23, and John 18:10–11. Sit with Jesus’ commands about enemies, unity, and Peter’s sword.

For a current look at Iranian Christians facing asylum and detention questions in the United States, read World Relief’s reporting on the issue. World Relief — From the Pulpit to the Capitol

Practice

This week, talk with someone whose culture, religion, or national background is different from yours. Do not begin with a debate. Ask about their life. Listen long enough to learn something you did not already know.

Episode Timestamps

(00:00) Meet Adam Stump

• West Virginia roots and Nazarene upbringing

• archaeology, anthropology, history, and ministry

• relational approach to pastoring

(04:27) A Long Road Into Ministry

• resisting the pastor path

• secular work and cross-cultural experience

• ministry beyond professional clergy

(09:10) Christians in the Middle East

• American blind spots

• Iran as the immediate focus

• U.S. power and regional war

(14:43) Iranian Converts and Underground Churches

• asylum and deportation fears

• house churches and Farsi worship

• historic Armenian and Assyrian communities

(20:11) A More Complicated Middle East

• Christians, Jews, and Muslims across centuries

• “people of the book”

• ancient communities behind modern headlines

(25:17) Bombs, Liberation, and Christian Nationalism

• danger of foreign intervention

• “bombing for peace”

• kingdom people before national citizens

(32:12) Have We Actually Tried Jesus?

• politics tangled with faith

• Peter's sword and Christian nonviolence

• U.S.–Israel policy and Christian witness

(41:35) The Church Pop Quiz

• zero hands in two congregations

• Christians in Iran and Lebanon

• ignorance, discomfort, and small-group learning

(48:11) Love Your Enemies Gets Uncomfortable

• trying love instead of another political savior

• comfort-driven Christianity

• image-bearers beyond enemy labels

(55:10) Constantine, Christendom, and Empire

• Christianity gaining political power

• spiritual power versus state power

• empire, party movements, and global perception

(1:00:19) Seeing America From Outside America

• Adam's 2002 experience in France

• political personality and national reputation

• shrinking American perspective

(1:05:23) How We Actually Change Things

• “How many Muslims do you know?”

• meeting people outside the American bubble

• listening, using influence, and changing through relationships

Keep the Conversation Going

If this episode challenged the way you see Christians in the Middle East, share it with someone who may have the same blind spot.

For another angle on the same region, listen to Episode 166, Christianity in the Middle East: U.S. Foreign Policy vs. The Holy Land with Nathan Perrin. Episode 166 with Nathan Perrin

You can also hear Iranian pastor Ara Torosian’s story in Episode 162, Iranian Christians, ICE Raids, and the Cost of Following Jesus. Episode 162 with Ara Torosian

Read the Gospels. Meet people face to face. Love the person behind the label.

No King but Christ.

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151. “I Follow Jesus:” Public Discipleship vs. Christian Nationalism with Deacon Gerri Endicott

This episode started with a small moment at a farmers market. It was Saturday, Craig was standing by his salsa when a woman smiled and said, “Craig?” She was Gerri Endicott.

She had just started listening and wanted to learn about the show and Christian anarchism. They laughed by the jars and swapped information. A few weeks later, that quick hello became this recorded conversation.

Meet Gerri

Gerri serves as an Episcopal deacon. She works a regular job and helps her church pay attention to the world outside its walls. She preaches. She teaches. She helps people show real mercy to real neighbors. She does not want the Bible turned into simple slogans. She believes Scripture should shape people to look like Jesus, not like political teams trying to win.

While they record, Gerri is getting ready to preach on Christ the King Sunday. In the Episcopal and Anglican calendar, that Sunday comes right before Advent. Not every church keeps it. In her parish, it works like a reset. It says what this project keeps saying: No King but Christ.

This is the story the episode tells: a chance meeting, a deeper talk, and a call to love Jesus more than flags and parties.

What a Deacon Is DOES

Gerri lives in the Memphis area and serves around Collierville while working a normal 9 to 5. A deacon helps a church turn outward. That means listening for the pain outside the doors and then going to meet it. It is less about a title and more about being present with people.

Gerri describes her week in simple words: show up where people hurt, carry the church’s prayers into the world, and carry the world’s pain back into the church’s prayers. That might mean preaching on Sunday and checking on a neighbor on Monday. It might mean helping leaders notice needs they missed and helping people meet those needs with quiet faithfulness.

As Gerri puts it, “A deacon turns the church outward. We preach. We teach. We send people to serve,” (04:30–05:10).

Her tone stays calm and hopeful. If you think ministry only means a stage and a microphone, this gives a bigger picture. A lot of the work is small and local: visiting, listening, connecting people, and reminding the church that Jesus is already at work on their street.

“Follower of Jesus,” Not a Brand

Gerri often does not start with, “I am a Christian.” She starts with, “I am a follower of Jesus.” The word “Christian” can carry baggage. People hear it and make guesses right away. Gerri is not hiding her faith. She is trying to make her loyalty clear.

She says it like this: “I want people to hear Jesus before they hear my politics,” (12:30–13:10).

They also remember the earliest Christians. They repented and believed. They loved enemies. They shared bread. They refused to say, “Caesar is lord.” The cross, not the sword, showed who they belonged to. That is the center Gerri wants people to meet first: Jesus in action, not a label that can mean many different things today.

Women in Ministry: Let Daughters Speak

Gerri talks about how her tradition got here. The Episcopal Church did not ordain women as priests until 1974. It was a slow change, with prayer and debate. She also points out something important: even though the Bible was written in a world led by men, it still shows strong and important women from start to finish.

Then she tells a real church moment. After a sermon on women in ministry, a retired military man stopped her at the door. He said, “My wife bought The Making of Biblical Womanhood by Beth Allison Barr,” and then added, “I’m almost through it and I have one thing to say, ‘we’d all be a hell of a lot better off if we just let women run things’.”

Craig brings it back to the gospel story: women were the first to proclaim the resurrection.

Craig says, “If it’s good enough for Jesus, I don’t know why we’re even talking about this anymore—why this is a debate.” (08:28–08:34)

The point is not to win an argument. The point is to honor the whole story and the good fruit it produces in real churches: voices used, gifts shared, neighbors served.

Christian Nationalism: Check the Fruit

Gerri also pushes back on a loud kind of “Christian” that looks like a rally. Crosses on flags. Enemies to crush. Cheers for violence. Gerri rejects it because the fruit does not look like Jesus. She says the people harmed most by this mix often include immigrants, the poor, and political opponents. If it harms them, it matters to Jesus, so it should matter to the church.

She makes a clear line: being thankful for your country is fine, but loyalty is different. Loyalty belongs to Jesus. When national identity becomes the center, the poor are ignored and enemies are hated. The Sermon on the Mount points another way.

Gerri says, “Jesus does not love America more than he loves anyone else. This is about following him,” (13:59–14:20).

Craig shares his own practice here. He reads 1 Samuel 8 and hears a warning about asking for a king. For Craig, not voting is one way to keep his loyalty clear. He does not demand others do the same. He is explaining a strict posture: No King but Christ.

A Liturgical Lens, Not a Test

Christ the King Sunday matters here. In Gerri’s Episcopal tradition, set readings and prayers shape worship. The Sunday before Advent announces one theme: Christ is King. Not the president. Not a party. Not “us.” Gerri is preparing to preach this, not as a political jab, but as a gentle reminder of who Christians are.

Not every church uses that calendar, and that is okay. The point is not copying a schedule. The point is remembering who holds our loyalty. In Gerri’s parish, the message is simple: be thankful for your place, and be loyal to Jesus.

Gerri says it clearly: “We do not bow to a government. We belong to Christ,” (39:56–40:20).

And even if you are not in a liturgical church, the idea still works. Any week can be a reset. Any table can become a place where the Kingdom shows up through bread, prayer, and love for neighbors.

The Big Story

Again and again, Craig and Gerri step back from “one verse fights” and tell the whole Bible story, from start to finish.

• Creation: God makes a good world and calls people very good.

• Israel (in the Bible, not a modern nation-state): God sets apart a family to bless neighbors, not crush them.

• Jesus: the clearest picture of God, washing feet, healing an enemy’s son, telling the truth even when it costs him.

• The church: small tables, open homes, shared bread.

• New creation: a future where tears are dried and weapons become tools for growing food.

When you read that story with Jesus in the center, the path gets clearer: love God, love your neighbor, welcome the stranger, bless people who hurt you, tell the truth, and keep your promises. Craig and Gerri also make it practical, like bringing a casserole to a widow, giving a ride to someone whose car broke down, staying calm online, or saying sorry face to face.

This kind of life does not feed the rage machine. It will not go viral. But that is the point. The Kingdom does not grow by outrage. It grows by presence, kept promises, and steady love that might look boring on camera, but looks holy in real life.

Gerri sums it up: “It is the whole arc. Love God. Love people. Take care of each other,” (22:11–23:15).

Nations and Nation-States

They also slow down to talk about words. In Scripture, “nations” often means “peoples.” It does not match today’s nation-states in a simple way. When we mix those up, people grab ancient commands and try to use them for modern borders and parties. Gerri calls for a slower reading: honor the text, learn the context, and keep Jesus at the center when you make public choices.

This helps keep Christians from treating one country as “God’s plan” and helps them treat strangers with the same mercy they want for themselves. It also keeps the church from turning into an enemy-making machine.

Tradition That Points Beyond Itself

Gerri respects her tradition: robes, music, and the lectionary. But she says these things are tools. They are not the treasure. Traditions do not define God. They should point to God and keep Jesus in the center.

Gerri says, “I honor my tradition, but it points me to God. It is not God,” (22:11–22:35).

She also likes the lectionary because it makes preachers deal with passages they did not pick. It helps a church avoid only talking about favorite topics, and it invites the whole story of Scripture to shape the year.

Borders, ICE, and Neighbor Love

They also touch immigration and the border. They agree that naming harm matters. People made in God’s image can get reduced to numbers and headlines. Gerri asks churches to speak plainly about dignity and to act locally: support a family, learn a name, offer help without strings, and resist words or policies that treat people like problems.

That steady neighbor love is how a parish shows loyalty to Jesus in public. It is not a slogan. It is a way of life.

Highlights and Takeaways

• A quick hello at a farmers market became a Kingdom conversation.

• Deacons help churches face outward and serve.

• Let daughters speak. The Body needs every gift.

• Christian nationalism is not the gospel. Check the fruit.

• Read the whole arc of the bible. Love God. Love neighbor. Practice mercy.

• Nations ≠ nation‑states; keep Jesus at the center of public choices.

• Faithfulness looks local: tables, casseroles, rides, and kept promises.

Listen, Reflect & Act

🎧 Listen. Ask Jesus to reset your loyalty to Him while the episode plays.
💬 Reflect. Where have you let the flag first pushed the cross to the side?

🦻Revisit. Matthew 5–7; Romans 12 (before Romans 13); Psalm 146; Revelation 5.
📖 Read: Read Gerri’s Sermon
🤝 Act. Serve someone this week with no strings. Pray for an enemy by name. Invite a neighbor to your table.

Episode Timestamps:

(00:00) Farmers market hello: How they met

• Peaches, name tags, a quick hello in Memphis; Gerri recognizes Craig.

• “Christian anarchism” comes up; they agree to talk more on the show.

• Sets the tone: ordinary place, Jesus‑centered conversation.

(02:00) Memphis roots & call to serve: Gerri’s context

• Collierville area; normal 9–5 job + local church service.

• Deacon = helper who turns the church outward (service > stage).

• Picture: visits, check‑ins, prayer, connecting needs to help.

• Carry the world’s pain into the church’s prayers (and back).

• Examples: rides, groceries, hallway prayers, “we didn’t forget you.”

(05:49) Scripture & strong women: Big story, not proof texts

• Bible written in a hard time for women, yet full of faithful daughters.

• Names matter: Mary Magdalene, Priscilla, Phoebe, Junia.

• Read the whole story, not one line pulled out.

(06:50) A changed mind: Book + sermon

• Retired soldier reads The Making of Biblical Womanhood (Beth Allison Barr).

• Tells Gerri: “We’d be better off if we let women run things.” (06:50–07:30)

• Book + sermon + fruit = “You’re right; let women preach/lead.”

(08:10) Easter’s first witnesses: Why this matters

• Women share the first news: “He is risen.”

• Craig asks: If that’s true, why is the pulpit still a debate?

• Pattern: trust the witnesses Jesus trusted. (Matt 28; John 20)

(12:30) “Follower of Jesus:”  Language that lowers walls

• Gerri starts with “I follow Jesus,” not the heavier label.

• Goal: meet a Person, not a brand or party.

• Marks of Jesus’ people: kind speech, open hands, kept promises.

(13:59) Loyalty & the Sermon on the Mount: Allegiance check

• Be thankful for your country; keep loyalty with Jesus.

• Beatitudes as public ethic: mercy, peacemaking, truth.

• Refuse rage-bait; love enemies. (Matthew 5–7)

(14:29) Taking Scripture seriously: How to read

• Don’t cherry‑pick; read in context with Jesus at the center.

• Look for fruit: love, joy, peace… not cruelty.

• Let hard texts teach us to serve, not to win.

(18:45) Christ the King (her church calendar): A yearly reset

• Episcopal/Anglican day before Advent; not every church observes it.

• Simple confession: Jesus is King; parties and leaders are not.

• Family practice: pray the Lord’s Prayer; ask, “Who can we serve?”

(22:11) The big story: Creation to new creation

• Creation → Israel → Jesus → Church → New Creation.

• Clear path: love God, love neighbor; keep your word; tell the truth.

• Ordinary acts: casseroles, rides, apologies, quiet hospital visits.

(24:31) Nations vs. countries: Words matter

• In Scripture, “nations” = “peoples,” not modern borders.

• Mixing terms warps reading and fuels bad politics.

• Keep Jesus at the center when making public choices.

(38:47) No new kings: Craig’s practice

• 1 Samuel 8: warning about asking for a king.

• Craig abstains from voting to keep his loyalty clear.

• Not a rule for all; an invitation to examine allegiance.

(39:56) Sermon preview: How Gerri will name it

• Parish message: grateful for place; loyal to Jesus.

• “We don’t bow to a government; we belong to Christ.” (39:56–40:20)

• Tone: gentle, pastoral, invitational.

• Copy of Gerri’s Sermon

(46:56) Borders, ICE, neighbor love: Dignity in action

• People are not headlines; learn names and needs.

• Local steps: diapers, bus passes, meals, rides, waiting‑room care.

• Speak carefully; resist words/policies that harm image‑bearers.

(48:00) Stay in touch: What’s next

• Reach Gerri through the show for dates and updates.

• More preaching ahead; keep the conversation open.

• Practice No King but Christ in small, steady ways.

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