157. Freemasonry vs. Christianity: Hidden Altars of Government with Scipio Eruditus

What happens when we start asking where our public myths came from? Not just our slogans, but our symbols. Not just our laws, but the spiritual imagination sitting underneath them.

In this episode of The Bad Roman Podcast, Craig sits down with Scipio Eruditus of Dispatches from Reality to talk about the historical and theological entanglements between Freemasonry, Christianity, and the state. On the surface, that might sound like a niche topic. But the deeper the conversation goes, the more it starts to feel like a mirror. Why are Christians so quick to trust power? Why do symbols on currency, patriotic myths, and secret oaths seem easier for many people to defend than the plain teachings of Jesus?

This is not a light conversation, but it is an important one. Scipio shares how his own journey, from military service and patriotism to deep suspicion of government, forced him to rethink the stories he once believed. And as the episode unfolds, the bigger question comes into view: can followers of Jesus stay awake in a world built on hidden loyalties, or will we keep baptizing government and calling it righteousness?

From patriotism to disillusionment

Scipio’s story begins with the kind of loyalty many Americans understand. He joined the Air Force in the wake of 9/11 believing he was fighting for freedom. But war has a way of exposing the distance between what we are told and what is true. What happens when the script falls apart in real time? What do we do when the nation we trusted starts to look less like a protector and more like a storyteller protecting its own image?

That experience became a crack in the wall. The guest describes Afghanistan as a turning point, not only because of the violence, but because of the lies that seemed to surround it. Later, his involvement in a fraternity opened another door, this time into rituals, symbols, and hidden inheritances that would lead him into researching Freemasonry in much greater depth. Sometimes awakening does not come all at once. Sometimes it comes in layers, one false promise at a time.

“It was an absolutely major paradigm shift for me... and has forced me to look at the constitution and the founding of this nation in a much more critical light.” (10:03)

The mystery beneath the surface

Craig wisely begins with the language of mystery, pulling from 2 Thessalonians and asking whether the foundations of the United States are more spiritually loaded than most Christians realize. That is where the episode gets especially provocative. Scipio argues that Freemasonry is not just a fraternal club or harmless social network, but a modern expression of a much older spiritual rebellion, one that promises enlightenment, self-perfection, and power apart from God.

Whether listeners agree with every historical claim or not, the deeper challenge lands hard: Christians must learn to ask what kind of story a symbol is telling. A cross calls us to die. A flag calls us to rally. A secret oath calls us to conceal. Those are not small differences. And once we stop treating public life as neutral, we may begin to see how easily spiritual compromise wears respectable clothes.

“This is really the oldest heresy... the same temptation that the serpent tempted Eve with... ‘ye shall be like gods.’” (14:25)

Power loves secrecy, Jesus works in the light

One of the clearest themes in this conversation is that power protects itself. Secret societies, elite networks, and mutual loyalty structures are useful precisely because they shield influence from public accountability. That is one reason the discussion of the Morgan Affair matters so much in the episode. For Scipio, it becomes a case study in how a relatively small group can exercise outsized influence through shared secrecy, political relationships, and cultural fear.

That raises a very Christian question: what kind of kingdom does Jesus build? Not one held together by hidden handshakes, blood oaths, and carefully managed access. The Kingdom of God moves in truth, confession, mercy, and open proclamation. Jesus says let your yes be yes. Government says keep the inner circle protected. Jesus washes feet. Systems of domination guard the ladder.

“A more perfect agent for the devising and execution of conspiracies against church or state could scarcely have been conceived.” (11:05, quoting Charles Francis Adams)

Why Christians still cling to government

Maybe the most sobering part of the episode is not the discussion of Freemasonry itself. It is the repeated question underneath it: why do Christians keep trusting the very systems that train them away from Jesus? Craig returns more than once to the frustration of seeing believers recognize evil in the abstract, yet continue supporting government in practice. We can spot corruption, but we still want our side to run it.

And that may be the real spiritual danger here. We like visible strength. We like belonging. We like the feeling that if the right people held the levers, things would finally become righteous. But Jesus never told us to seize Caesar and clean him up. He told us to love enemies, tell the truth, reject hypocrisy, and follow Him. That path is slower. It is less glamorous. It gives us less control. Maybe that is why it feels so hard.

False light and true light

Late in the conversation, Craig asks directly about the guest’s claim that Masonic thought points toward Luciferian themes. However listeners hear that part of the discussion, the contrast that follows is deeply Christian and worth sitting with: what counts as light? Is it secret knowledge? Elite access? Self-deification? Or is it Christ Himself, the true Light who enters the world without coercion, spectacle, or domination?

That contrast matters far beyond this topic. Every age has its version of “further light.” New techniques. New access. New power. New ways for humanity to save itself. But Jesus does not offer enlightenment as a ladder for the strong. He offers Himself to the poor in spirit, the meek, the merciful, and the peacemakers. He does not flatter our pride. He crucifies it.

“What do you most desire? Not Christ, but the further light in masonry...” (53:17)

No king but Christ still matters

By the end, the conversation widens back out. Freemasonry may be the subject, but allegiance is the deeper issue. What are we really trusting? What stories have formed us? What are we willing to overlook because the symbols feel familiar and the system feels normal?

This episode does not ask us to become obsessed with hidden things. It asks us to become faithful in plain things. Tell the truth. Refuse idolatry. Be skeptical of power. Measure every claim, symbol, and system against Jesus. If something needs secrecy, coercion, and flattery to survive, it probably does not belong to the Kingdom.

And maybe that is the final invitation here: stop chasing the machinery of government and return to the Lamb. The Church does not need better hidden networks. It needs clearer allegiance.

🤝Connect with Scipio Eruditus🤝

• Substack: Dispatches from Reality — dfreality.substack.com

• YouTube: Dispatches From Reality / @ScipioEruditus

• Podcast: Dispatches from Reality - Narrated (Spotify and Apple Podcasts)

Highlights & Takeaways

• Patriotism can feel holy until lived experience reveals how deeply government depends on myth.

• Hidden rituals and public symbols both disciple people; neither is neutral.

• Jesus builds His Kingdom in truth and light, not secrecy and elite protection.

• The temptation to “be like gods” still shows up anywhere power is pursued apart from God.

• Christians often condemn corruption in theory while still defending it when their tribe benefits.

• “Further light” is a dangerous promise when it pulls us away from Christ, the true Light.

• The real issue is not curiosity about secret societies, but clarity about allegiance.

• No reform of government can replace the call to simple obedience to Jesus.

Listen

Listen for the deeper thread running through the whole conversation: not just Freemasonry, but the way power forms our imagination and teaches us what to trust.

Reflect

Ask yourself where your own loyalties have been shaped more by national myth, institutional respectability, or cultural fear than by the words of Jesus.

Read

Read 2 Thessalonians 2:7, Genesis 3, John 1, and Matthew 5–7. Notice the contrast between mystery, false light, and the way of Christ.

Practice

Take one symbol, slogan, or civic ritual you have always treated as normal, and honestly ask: does this move me closer to the Lamb, or closer to the logic of government?

Episode Timestamps:

(0:00) Opening the question: Freemasonry, Christianity, and the state

• Craig’s curiosity and caution

• Searching for truth beyond documentaries and TV narratives

(1:15) Meeting Scipio Eruditus

• Pseudonym and writing background

• Long-form essays as method

• Entering the subject through research, not spectacle

(2:12) War, patriotism, and the breaking of trust

• Air Force service after 9/11

• Afghanistan as paradigm shift

• Propaganda, freedom-talk, disillusionment

(5:16) Fraternities as a gateway into deeper questions

• Former membership in Fiji Fraternity

• Masonic overlap in ritual and symbolism

• Secret oaths, handshakes, initiation patterns

(6:43) The initiation experience that shook him

• Hooded transport to a lodge

• Sense of dread, evil, spiritual unease

• Checkerboard floor, all-seeing eye, symbols everywhere

(8:28) Freemasonry and the making of the modern world

• History hidden in plain sight

• Influence on the last 300 years

• Mainline scholarship, not just fringe material

(9:24) Patriotism losing its innocence

• “American chauvinist” past

• Scales falling from the eyes

• Constitution and founding myths reconsidered

(10:14) The “mystery” question

• 2 Thessalonians 2 as framing text

• Freemasonry as hidden foundation

• Cornerstones, symbols, and spiritual undercurrents

(11:05) Secret societies and conspiracy against church and state

• Charles Francis Adams quote

• Elite men sworn to secrecy

• Bloody oaths, hierarchy, insulation from accountability

(12:26) Ancient religion, Babylon, and Egypt

• Mystery religion language

• Ritual parallels and symbols

• Ancient rebellion carried forward

(13:32) The unfinished pyramid and “the great work”

• Dollar-bill symbolism

• Human self-perfection apart from God

• Theosis without Christ, rebellion dressed as progress

(14:25) The oldest heresy returns

• Genesis 3 and “ye shall be like gods”

• False light, false liberation

• Christ vs self-divinization

(18:04) Lower ranks, hidden knowledge, and the shield of charity

• “We do good works” defense

• Scouting for the amenable

• Ignorance below the top levels

(29:01) Why such a small group carries so much influence

• Elite appeal, movers and shakers

• Influence on state and Christian imagination

• Surface-level Christianity confronted

(30:30) The Morgan Affair

• Competing public narratives

• Kidnapping and cover-up claims

• John Quincy Adams as outspoken critic

(31:46) Political dominion and suppression of scandal

• Public press influence

• Governors, senators, secret orders

• Small network, outsized power

(34:57) Support the Bad Roman Project

(49:09) Symbols on the currency

• Subtle and bold at once

• Masonic imagery in plain sight

• Public apathy, normalized corruption

(50:39) Allegiance, Lucifer, and false light

• Craig’s question about satanic allegiance

• Digging into Masonic literature

• Albert Pike and the language of light

(53:17) “Further light in masonry”

• Oath language contrasted with Christ

• Morning star imagery

• False knowledge vs true light

(58:58) Is Freemasonry still driving government today?

• Influence changing form

• Other occult groups taking cultural space

• Institution fading, deeper logic remaining

(59:17) Can Christians make government righteous?

• Voting to “improve” Caesar

• State reform vs Kingdom fidelity

• The limits of political salvation

(1:12:20) Where to find Scipio’s work

• Dispatches from Reality on Substack

• Weekly roundups and long-form essays

• YouTube: @ScipioEruditus

• Podcast: Dispatches from Reality - Narrated (Spotify and Apple Podcasts)

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153. Star-Spangled Jesus: Waking up From Christian Nationalism with April Ajoy

What happens when we wrap the cross in a flag and call it faith?

What happens when our love for country grows louder than our love for enemies?

This is a wake-up story. It is about good people who meant well. It is about churches that wanted to do the right thing. It is about a path that seemed holy and strong, but slowly bent us away from Jesus. It is also about grace. How the Spirit opens our eyes. How laughter can heal shame. How the Kingdom looks nothing like the empire.

Our guide is April Ajoy. She grew up inside this world. She knows the songs. She knows the slogans. She also knows the moment when you hear Jesus whisper, “My Kingdom is not of this world,” and it finally lands. In her words, most people who live this way “just think they’re being good Christians.”

Inside the story, it felt like faith

If you grew up in a church like Craig’s or April’s, politics did not feel like politics. It felt like faith. It felt like doing your duty for God. You listened to your pastor. You loved your country. You voted for the “Christian” team. No one said, “We are Christian nationalists.” People said, “We love Jesus. We love America. We want what’s right.”

That is why this is so sticky. You can be sincere. You can be kind. You can also be discipled by a party and not know it. April names it out loud: the biggest problem is not people with evil plans; it’s people who honestly think they’re walking with Jesus while they carry the empire’s sword in their other hand.

Craig admits he once called the GOP “God’s own party.” He laughs now, because he remembers repeating it like a memorized verse. It was the air they breathed.

When you are inside the story, it all makes sense. When Jesus brings you outside, you start seeing the rot. You notice how the fruit tastes. You notice how fear leads the dance. And then you begin to change.

Craig meets April, and something clicks

Craig found April’s work online. He heard her tell stories that felt like his own. Texas. Tennessee. Sports teams. Church life. And a slow shift from party loyalty to King Jesus. He listened to Star-Spangled Jesus and felt like he was hearing pieces of his life sung back to him.

This is how change often starts. Not with a fight. Not with a headline. With a voice that sounds like home, saying true things in a kind way.

Humor tells the truth without the knives

April uses humor on purpose. Not to mock. Not to dunk. To lower the heat. To make space for honesty. She talks about a public “Jesus juke,” where someone tries to rush past hard facts with a holy-sounding line. She tells a story about a famous post that tried to make the Epstein files into a quick lesson about God’s “files.” It was a dodge. It was a “Jesus juke.” Craig loved the term the moment he heard it and wrote it down.

Humor helps. It lets you say, “Hey, we all do this.” It lets people breathe and listen. It reminds us that repentance is good news, not a beating.

When the flag walks into church

Craig remembers the day his church stood for the Pledge of Allegiance in a Sunday service. They honored the troops. They sang “patriotic psalms.” It felt normal. It felt right. It felt like “we are a Christian nation.” Years later he calls it what it was: a rival allegiance sitting next to the cross. He did not see it then. He sees it now.

He says the title of April’s book sticks because it pictures what he saw: Jesus wrapped in a flag. It looks bold. It feels safe. But it slowly swaps the words of the Sermon on the Mount for the words of the party platform. It takes your heart a few inches at a time, until the beat is different and you barely notice.

April nods. She has seen the same thing. She has seen pulpits become podiums. She has seen the cross used as a logo for campaigns. She has seen how easy it is to confuse God’s Kingdom with earthly kingdoms. Jesus said His Kingdom is not from here. We forget that line at our own risk.

“We just thought we were the good guys”

Most of us did not wake up one day and choose empire over Kingdom. We chose “the good guys.” We believed the horror stories about the other side. We assumed force was needed to save what we loved. April tells a story from grad school. After watching a fear-heavy film, she and friends made a Romney campaign video. They thought the nation was on the brink. Fear felt like faith. It also felt normal in their circles.

Looking back, she calls the film “propaganda.” That word can sting. But it fits. Propaganda is anything that trains you to trust Caesar more than Christ, to see neighbors as problems, and to baptize the use of force. Once you name it, you can step out of it.

“Good Christians” vs. the Kingdom of Jesus

April’s simple line keeps echoing: people caught in Christian nationalism do not think they are in a movement. They think they are being faithful. That is the danger. If you believe this is faithfulness, you will double down whenever someone questions it. You will feel attacked. You will defend your team as if you are defending Jesus.

But Jesus did not run for office. He did not build a voting bloc. He did not command His friends to rule others. He told them to love enemies, bless those who curse, forgive seventy-seven times, and pick up a cross. That is not a platform. That is a life.

The early church read the Sermon on the Mount like marching orders. They did not ask Caesar to pass better laws. They became better neighbors. They cared for the poor. They refused to kill. They told the truth. They shared what they had. They chose the Lamb over the sword.

When our modern faith looks more like a campaign than a cross, it is time to repent. Not with shame, but with joy. Jesus is better than any flag.

The line we cross without noticing

How do you know you have drifted from faith into nationalism? April offers a simple test. If you believe something is a sin, you live by that belief. But when you try to make the state force your belief on your neighbor, you have stepped into nationalist territory. The “you can’t do that because it violates my belief” move is a tell. It shifts the center from Christ to control.

Craig applies that to hot-button issues, including Roe v. Wade. He says even if you disagree with abortion, the government should not have power over someone else’s body. “Why don’t we just leave it between the doctor and the person?” he asks. “Everybody’s solution is always government.”

That is a brave thing to say out loud in our times. It is also a clean way to test our hearts. Are we trying to disciple our neighbor or dominate them? Are we offering help or passing a law? Jesus never forced anyone into the Kingdom. He invited and loved.

From the feed to the table

Another test is where we spend our energy. If our “discipleship” happens mainly on social media, we will start to sound like social media. Craig confesses he used to fight online. He learned that face-to-face talks feel different. Looking someone in the eye slows you down. It builds trust. It shifts you from points to people. That is where hearts change.

It does not mean the internet is useless. People watch. People listen. Seeds get planted. But if we want to look like Jesus, we will need more tables than threads. We will need more meals than memes. We will need to move from “owning” to “serving.”

Why laughter matters when the truth hurts

Shame shuts people down. Fear makes people dig in. Humor does something different. It opens a window. It lets light in without burning. That is what April is doing. She names things like “Jesus jukes” and smiles. She lets us see the dodge, but she gives us room to breathe. We are all tempted to spiritualize what we do not want to face. Laughter helps us face it without hating ourselves. Craig’s reaction says it all: “I’ve never heard that before. I love it.”

Humor, used well, is a form of mercy. It is truth with a warm hand on your shoulder. It makes change feel possible.

“No King but Christ” is not a slogan; it is a path

Talk is easy. Slogans are easy. The Kingdom is a way of life. Here is what it looks like in plain steps:

• Read the words of Jesus out loud. Slowly. Matthew 5–7. Luke 6. John 13–17. Let them shape you.

• Bless the person you dislike. Do one small act of help with no strings.

• Stop baptizing your anger. If you post in rage, repent to the person you targeted.

• Refuse coercion as a tool. Offer help, not control.

• Do your politics at a table. Eat with people who vote different. Listen twice as much as you speak.

• Keep your eyes on the cross, not the flag. The flag changes. The Kingdom does not.

These are small, human moves. But that is the point. The Kingdom is yeast and seeds. It grows in simple soil.

The difference that makes all the difference

Here is the heart of it. We are not calling people to hate their country. We are calling people to love Jesus more than their country. To refuse to hurt neighbors in His name. To stop using the state to get our way. To trust slow love over fast force. To pick up a cross instead of a club.

This is not soft. It is strong. Enemy-love is harder than war talk. Forgiveness is harder than payback. Honesty is harder than spin. But this is the way.

When the church remembers this, the church starts to look like Jesus again.

Highlights & Takeaways

• Christian nationalism often feels like faith from the inside; many think they’re being faithful to Jesus, not political.

• Symbols preach. A flag beside the cross tells a story about who is really in charge. Craig lived it before he saw it.

• Humor heals. Naming the “Jesus juke” helps us face spin without shame and move toward truth together.

• Coercion is not the Christian way. Loving neighbors means refusing to force them to live by our convictions through the state.

• Stop outsourcing love to Caesar. “Leave it between the doctor and the person” models neighbor-first, Kingdom-first ethics.

• Move from threads to tables. Real change is face to face, not just online.

Listen & Reflect

🎧 Listen: Notice how humor lowers the heat. April’s “Jesus juke” line helps people admit the dodge without feeling attacked. Where might that help in your circle?

💬 Reflect: Have you ever tried to make the state enforce your beliefs on a neighbor? What would it look like to trust Jesus instead of force?

📖 Read: Matthew 5–7 this week. Ask, “Do my politics look like this?”

🤝 Practice: Take one conversation offline. Invite someone you disagree with to coffee. Listen for 15 minutes before you make a single claim.

🤝Connect with April Ajoy:

• Get the book: Star-Spangled Jesus: Leaving Christian Nationalism and Finding A True Faith

  • Listen to the Book on Spotify like Craig did!

• LinkTree

  • Instagram: @aprilajoy

  • Facebook: April Ajoy

  • X (Twitter): @aprilajoyr

  • TikTok: @aprilajoy

• Podcast: The Tim and April Show, YouTube, Instagram, Apple Podcast, Spotify

Episode Timestamps:

(0:00) Waking up from Christian nationalism

• Craig sets the theme and welcomes April Ajoy

• Why this matters for real people in real churches

• What “No King but Christ” means for this talk

(1:04) Finding April’s work

• Craig hears his own story in April’s voice

• Texas, Tennessee, and church culture they both know

• From party loyalty to the way of Jesus

(2:18) “Good Christians” and blind spots

• Most don’t think they’re nationalists; they think they’re faithful

• How the party line can sound like discipleship

• Cracks show when we sit with the Sermon on the Mount

(3:25) April’s current projects

• The Tim and April Show and weekly conversations

• Short videos that name the problem with kindness

• Where to follow April and keep learning

(10:31) Threads vs. tables

• Why online fights feel different than face-to-face talks

• Looking people in the eye builds trust and honesty

• Move from winning points to loving people

(12:48) Flags in the sanctuary

• Pledging in church felt normal at the time

• Symbols preach louder than we think

• Cross first, not country first

(15:05) The “Jesus juke”

• How holy talk can dodge hard truth

• Humor lowers the heat and opens ears

• We can face facts without shame

(18:22) Fear and propaganda

• A movie night that stirred panic

• A DIY campaign video born from fear

• Learning to spot spin dressed up as faith

(26:10) From conviction to control

• The quiet shift from “I won’t” to “you can’t”

• Why coercion betrays the way of Christ

• Invitation beats force every time

(30:44) Stop outsourcing love to Caesar

• “Leave it between the doctor and the person”

• Government power is a blunt tool

• Choose neighbor-first solutions

(45:50) Where to find April

• TikTok, Instagram, and Facebook @AprilAjoy

• Gentle tone, clear truth, steady practice

• Learn in small bites all week

(52:12) No King but Christ

• What faithfulness looks like in a land of flags

• Small acts of love over loud culture wars

• A simple path back to Jesus

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