157. Freemasonry vs. Christianity: Hidden Altars of Government with Scipio Eruditus

What happens when we start asking where our public myths came from? Not just our slogans, but our symbols. Not just our laws, but the spiritual imagination sitting underneath them.

In this episode of The Bad Roman Podcast, Craig sits down with Scipio Eruditus of Dispatches from Reality to talk about the historical and theological entanglements between Freemasonry, Christianity, and the state. On the surface, that might sound like a niche topic. But the deeper the conversation goes, the more it starts to feel like a mirror. Why are Christians so quick to trust power? Why do symbols on currency, patriotic myths, and secret oaths seem easier for many people to defend than the plain teachings of Jesus?

This is not a light conversation, but it is an important one. Scipio shares how his own journey, from military service and patriotism to deep suspicion of government, forced him to rethink the stories he once believed. And as the episode unfolds, the bigger question comes into view: can followers of Jesus stay awake in a world built on hidden loyalties, or will we keep baptizing government and calling it righteousness?

From patriotism to disillusionment

Scipio’s story begins with the kind of loyalty many Americans understand. He joined the Air Force in the wake of 9/11 believing he was fighting for freedom. But war has a way of exposing the distance between what we are told and what is true. What happens when the script falls apart in real time? What do we do when the nation we trusted starts to look less like a protector and more like a storyteller protecting its own image?

That experience became a crack in the wall. The guest describes Afghanistan as a turning point, not only because of the violence, but because of the lies that seemed to surround it. Later, his involvement in a fraternity opened another door, this time into rituals, symbols, and hidden inheritances that would lead him into researching Freemasonry in much greater depth. Sometimes awakening does not come all at once. Sometimes it comes in layers, one false promise at a time.

“It was an absolutely major paradigm shift for me... and has forced me to look at the constitution and the founding of this nation in a much more critical light.” (10:03)

The mystery beneath the surface

Craig wisely begins with the language of mystery, pulling from 2 Thessalonians and asking whether the foundations of the United States are more spiritually loaded than most Christians realize. That is where the episode gets especially provocative. Scipio argues that Freemasonry is not just a fraternal club or harmless social network, but a modern expression of a much older spiritual rebellion, one that promises enlightenment, self-perfection, and power apart from God.

Whether listeners agree with every historical claim or not, the deeper challenge lands hard: Christians must learn to ask what kind of story a symbol is telling. A cross calls us to die. A flag calls us to rally. A secret oath calls us to conceal. Those are not small differences. And once we stop treating public life as neutral, we may begin to see how easily spiritual compromise wears respectable clothes.

“This is really the oldest heresy... the same temptation that the serpent tempted Eve with... ‘ye shall be like gods.’” (14:25)

Power loves secrecy, Jesus works in the light

One of the clearest themes in this conversation is that power protects itself. Secret societies, elite networks, and mutual loyalty structures are useful precisely because they shield influence from public accountability. That is one reason the discussion of the Morgan Affair matters so much in the episode. For Scipio, it becomes a case study in how a relatively small group can exercise outsized influence through shared secrecy, political relationships, and cultural fear.

That raises a very Christian question: what kind of kingdom does Jesus build? Not one held together by hidden handshakes, blood oaths, and carefully managed access. The Kingdom of God moves in truth, confession, mercy, and open proclamation. Jesus says let your yes be yes. Government says keep the inner circle protected. Jesus washes feet. Systems of domination guard the ladder.

“A more perfect agent for the devising and execution of conspiracies against church or state could scarcely have been conceived.” (11:05, quoting Charles Francis Adams)

Why Christians still cling to government

Maybe the most sobering part of the episode is not the discussion of Freemasonry itself. It is the repeated question underneath it: why do Christians keep trusting the very systems that train them away from Jesus? Craig returns more than once to the frustration of seeing believers recognize evil in the abstract, yet continue supporting government in practice. We can spot corruption, but we still want our side to run it.

And that may be the real spiritual danger here. We like visible strength. We like belonging. We like the feeling that if the right people held the levers, things would finally become righteous. But Jesus never told us to seize Caesar and clean him up. He told us to love enemies, tell the truth, reject hypocrisy, and follow Him. That path is slower. It is less glamorous. It gives us less control. Maybe that is why it feels so hard.

False light and true light

Late in the conversation, Craig asks directly about the guest’s claim that Masonic thought points toward Luciferian themes. However listeners hear that part of the discussion, the contrast that follows is deeply Christian and worth sitting with: what counts as light? Is it secret knowledge? Elite access? Self-deification? Or is it Christ Himself, the true Light who enters the world without coercion, spectacle, or domination?

That contrast matters far beyond this topic. Every age has its version of “further light.” New techniques. New access. New power. New ways for humanity to save itself. But Jesus does not offer enlightenment as a ladder for the strong. He offers Himself to the poor in spirit, the meek, the merciful, and the peacemakers. He does not flatter our pride. He crucifies it.

“What do you most desire? Not Christ, but the further light in masonry...” (53:17)

No king but Christ still matters

By the end, the conversation widens back out. Freemasonry may be the subject, but allegiance is the deeper issue. What are we really trusting? What stories have formed us? What are we willing to overlook because the symbols feel familiar and the system feels normal?

This episode does not ask us to become obsessed with hidden things. It asks us to become faithful in plain things. Tell the truth. Refuse idolatry. Be skeptical of power. Measure every claim, symbol, and system against Jesus. If something needs secrecy, coercion, and flattery to survive, it probably does not belong to the Kingdom.

And maybe that is the final invitation here: stop chasing the machinery of government and return to the Lamb. The Church does not need better hidden networks. It needs clearer allegiance.

🤝Connect with Scipio Eruditus🤝

• Substack: Dispatches from Reality — dfreality.substack.com

• YouTube: Dispatches From Reality / @ScipioEruditus

• Podcast: Dispatches from Reality - Narrated (Spotify and Apple Podcasts)

Highlights & Takeaways

• Patriotism can feel holy until lived experience reveals how deeply government depends on myth.

• Hidden rituals and public symbols both disciple people; neither is neutral.

• Jesus builds His Kingdom in truth and light, not secrecy and elite protection.

• The temptation to “be like gods” still shows up anywhere power is pursued apart from God.

• Christians often condemn corruption in theory while still defending it when their tribe benefits.

• “Further light” is a dangerous promise when it pulls us away from Christ, the true Light.

• The real issue is not curiosity about secret societies, but clarity about allegiance.

• No reform of government can replace the call to simple obedience to Jesus.

Listen

Listen for the deeper thread running through the whole conversation: not just Freemasonry, but the way power forms our imagination and teaches us what to trust.

Reflect

Ask yourself where your own loyalties have been shaped more by national myth, institutional respectability, or cultural fear than by the words of Jesus.

Read

Read 2 Thessalonians 2:7, Genesis 3, John 1, and Matthew 5–7. Notice the contrast between mystery, false light, and the way of Christ.

Practice

Take one symbol, slogan, or civic ritual you have always treated as normal, and honestly ask: does this move me closer to the Lamb, or closer to the logic of government?

Episode Timestamps:

(0:00) Opening the question: Freemasonry, Christianity, and the state

• Craig’s curiosity and caution

• Searching for truth beyond documentaries and TV narratives

(1:15) Meeting Scipio Eruditus

• Pseudonym and writing background

• Long-form essays as method

• Entering the subject through research, not spectacle

(2:12) War, patriotism, and the breaking of trust

• Air Force service after 9/11

• Afghanistan as paradigm shift

• Propaganda, freedom-talk, disillusionment

(5:16) Fraternities as a gateway into deeper questions

• Former membership in Fiji Fraternity

• Masonic overlap in ritual and symbolism

• Secret oaths, handshakes, initiation patterns

(6:43) The initiation experience that shook him

• Hooded transport to a lodge

• Sense of dread, evil, spiritual unease

• Checkerboard floor, all-seeing eye, symbols everywhere

(8:28) Freemasonry and the making of the modern world

• History hidden in plain sight

• Influence on the last 300 years

• Mainline scholarship, not just fringe material

(9:24) Patriotism losing its innocence

• “American chauvinist” past

• Scales falling from the eyes

• Constitution and founding myths reconsidered

(10:14) The “mystery” question

• 2 Thessalonians 2 as framing text

• Freemasonry as hidden foundation

• Cornerstones, symbols, and spiritual undercurrents

(11:05) Secret societies and conspiracy against church and state

• Charles Francis Adams quote

• Elite men sworn to secrecy

• Bloody oaths, hierarchy, insulation from accountability

(12:26) Ancient religion, Babylon, and Egypt

• Mystery religion language

• Ritual parallels and symbols

• Ancient rebellion carried forward

(13:32) The unfinished pyramid and “the great work”

• Dollar-bill symbolism

• Human self-perfection apart from God

• Theosis without Christ, rebellion dressed as progress

(14:25) The oldest heresy returns

• Genesis 3 and “ye shall be like gods”

• False light, false liberation

• Christ vs self-divinization

(18:04) Lower ranks, hidden knowledge, and the shield of charity

• “We do good works” defense

• Scouting for the amenable

• Ignorance below the top levels

(29:01) Why such a small group carries so much influence

• Elite appeal, movers and shakers

• Influence on state and Christian imagination

• Surface-level Christianity confronted

(30:30) The Morgan Affair

• Competing public narratives

• Kidnapping and cover-up claims

• John Quincy Adams as outspoken critic

(31:46) Political dominion and suppression of scandal

• Public press influence

• Governors, senators, secret orders

• Small network, outsized power

(34:57) Support the Bad Roman Project

(49:09) Symbols on the currency

• Subtle and bold at once

• Masonic imagery in plain sight

• Public apathy, normalized corruption

(50:39) Allegiance, Lucifer, and false light

• Craig’s question about satanic allegiance

• Digging into Masonic literature

• Albert Pike and the language of light

(53:17) “Further light in masonry”

• Oath language contrasted with Christ

• Morning star imagery

• False knowledge vs true light

(58:58) Is Freemasonry still driving government today?

• Influence changing form

• Other occult groups taking cultural space

• Institution fading, deeper logic remaining

(59:17) Can Christians make government righteous?

• Voting to “improve” Caesar

• State reform vs Kingdom fidelity

• The limits of political salvation

(1:12:20) Where to find Scipio’s work

• Dispatches from Reality on Substack

• Weekly roundups and long-form essays

• YouTube: @ScipioEruditus

• Podcast: Dispatches from Reality - Narrated (Spotify and Apple Podcasts)

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155. The State of the Holy Union: Is the President Barabbas? with Paul Lazzaroni

Sometimes we say we follow Jesus… but we still want a “strong guy” to save us. We want someone who will fight, punish our enemies, and “fix the country.” But what if that hope is closer to Barabbas than to Jesus?

In this episode, Craig talks with Paul Lazzaroni (Cross and Cornerstone / No King but Christ Network) about a big idea from Paul’s article, “Is Trump Barabbas?” The point isn’t mainly about one politician. It’s about a mindset. The crowd picked Barabbas. Someone tied to violence and revolt instead of Jesus. And if we’re honest, we can still want that kind of “savior” today. So we ask: Are we being shaped by the Kingdom of God… or by the kingdoms of this world?

The Barabbas Temptation

Barabbas wasn’t just “some other guy.” He stood for a certain kind of rescue: power, force, control. The kind of rescue that feels fast and strong.

Paul and Craig talk about how easy it is for Christians to drift into that way of thinking. We may not say, “Give us Barabbas,” out loud. But we can say it with our cravings. Craving a leader who will “win” for us, crush the “bad guys,” and make our fears go away.

Jesus doesn’t offer that kind of victory. He offers a cross. And that’s the problem… and the invitation.

When Politics Becomes Discipleship

Paul shares that he doesn’t vote and tries not to live inside political arguments. Not because he doesn’t care, but because he doesn’t want politics to become what shapes him. Craig comes at it from another angle: he’s loud about this stuff because he’s watching Christians tie their faith to state power, and it keeps hurting people.

Here’s one of the main questions underneath the whole episode:

If Jesus teaches enemy-love, mercy, and humility… why do Christians so often chase power, punishment, and control?

And another question:

When we say “we’re protecting our country,” are we protecting our neighbors, or protecting our own comfort?

God’s Slow Work: From Slavery Thinking to Freedom Living

Craig asks Paul to lay down some Bible groundwork, especially around Israel leaving Egypt and being formed in the wilderness. Paul’s point is simple: people who lived under slavery don’t suddenly know how to live free. They have to be healed. Re-trained. Re-shaped.

That changes how we think about Scripture and law. Instead of reading the Old Testament like “God’s dream is control,” Paul points toward a story of God patiently forming a people who learn justice, care for the vulnerable, and a different way to live together.

That matters today because Christian nationalism often sounds like Egypt thinking with Bible words:

 “Force people to be good.”
“Control society.”
“Win at all costs.”

But God’s way is slower, and it looks a lot more like Jesus.

Modern Babylon: A Place or a Pattern?

The Bible uses “Babylon” as a picture of empire: a system that trains people to trust power, money, fear, and violence.

Craig and Paul ask whether America slips into acting like “a modern Babylon.” Not as a simple insult, but as a warning. Because Babylon isn’t only “out there.” It can be in us. It can shape what we think “safety” means. It can shape what we think “good” means. It can even shape what we think “Christian” means.

So we’re left with a hard but honest question: Are we trying to build God’s Kingdom… or are we helping Babylon feel holy?

The Kind of King We Keep Asking For

One of the hardest parts of this conversation is realizing this: we don’t only want safety. We often want control. We want a king who will make the world feel simple again: good guys vs. bad guys, winners vs. losers.

But Jesus keeps refusing to be that kind of king. He doesn’t grab power. He doesn’t build His kingdom with threats. He doesn’t save the world by hurting the “right people.” That’s why Barabbas is such a strong picture. Barabbas is the kind of “rescuer” the crowd understands.

 Jesus is the kind they don’t.

So the question is not just, “Who do we vote for?” It’s, “What kind of king do we secretly want?”

Good News Has A Target

Craig and Paul circle back to a simple test that cuts through a lot of noise: Is it good news for the poor? For the oppressed? For the outsider?

Jesus’ mission isn’t vague. He doesn’t just say “be nice.” He announces freedom, healing, mercy, and justice. That kind of good news has real faces: the hungry, the prisoner, the immigrant, the exploited, the outcast. If our “Christian” politics mainly protects the comfortable and punishes the vulnerable, something is backwards.

This is where Christian nationalism gets exposed. It often sounds like “God and country,” but it doesn’t always sound like Jesus.

No King But Christ Means We Live Different

If we say “Jesus is Lord,” that can’t just be a slogan. It has to show up in how we treat people, how we talk about enemies, and what we’re willing to do without the government’s help.

“No King but Christ” doesn’t mean we stop caring about the world. It means we stop believing power is the savior. It means we stop acting like fear gets the final word. And it means we practice the Kingdom right now, small, real, local, and brave.

Not with a flag. Not with threats. Not with “winning.” But with the kind of love Jesus actually taught.

Highlights & Takeaways

• The “Barabbas mindset” is wanting a savior who uses power and force instead of the way of Jesus.

• This isn’t just about one politician—it’s about what we crave when we’re afraid.

• If politics is shaping our hearts more than Jesus is, something is off.

• God’s story in Scripture is often slow formation, not quick domination.

• “Babylon” is an empire pattern—fear, control, and violence dressed up as “order.”

• A good test: Is what we’re supporting good news for the poor, the oppressed, and the outsider? If not, it probably isn’t Jesus’ way.

• Following Jesus means we don’t need a flag to tell us who we are.

🤝 Connect with Paul Lazzaroni 🤝

• Cross and Cornerstone (Website / Blog + Articles)

• C&C Facebook Page

• No King but Christ Network (Paul’s work is featured there): nokingbutchristnetwork.com

• Paul’s Personal Pages

• Instagram

• Facebook

• YouTube

• TikTok

Listen & Reflect

Listen: Pay attention to the moments where you feel the pull toward “we need a strong leader.” What emotion is underneath that: fear, anger, exhaustion?

Reflect: Where have we accepted the idea that “the state will love our neighbor for us”? What would it look like to take that responsibility back?

Read: Re-read Luke 23 (Jesus and Barabbas). Then read Matthew 5 (especially enemy-love). Ask: Which way looks more like my life right now?

Practice: Do one small, real act of love that doesn’t depend on elections: help someone, forgive someone, feed someone, show up for someone. Let Jesus shape your reflexes.

Episode Timestamps:

(0:00) Jesus or Caesar?

• state power / coercion

• violence vs cross-shaped love

• allegiance, obedience, faithful resistance

(0:45) Meet Paul Lazzaroni

• No King but Christ Network

• Paul’s background + why he’s here

• Cross and Cornerstone connection

(1:27) “Is Trump Barabbas?”

• title as provocation

• not about one person

• Barabbas as symbol / warning

(2:20) The Barabbas Mindset

• strongman savior instinct

• fear → anger → control

• “revolt for us” vs “take up your cross”

(8:36) Why Paul Doesn’t Vote

• informed vs formed

• political identity vs Kingdom identity

• stepping back from the outrage machine

(17:57) Wilderness First

• Exodus / slavery mindset

• formation before “law”

• Leviticus groundwork, God re-shaping a people

(47:30) Modern Babylon

• Babylon as system / pattern

• empire imagination

• fear, control, violence dressed up as “order”

(47:57) Mindsets and Mimic Kingdoms

• tribal belonging / “our team”

• empire logic: power promises salvation

• winning vs faithfulness, control vs Spirit

(53:33) What Is Cross and Cornerstone?

• website + blog/articles hub 

• learning-in-public: what Paul’s studying + wrestling through

• resources for folks not finding this in church

(55:32) Why “Cornerstone”?

• rejected stone / Jesus as foundation

• Paul’s story: rejecting, returning, grace

• identity built on Christ, not empire

(57:16) Writing, Learning, Humility

• learning through writing

• “journey of humility”

• Scripture forming us (not agendas)

Sit with Discomfort

If this episode made you uncomfortable, you’re not alone. That might be the Spirit pulling us away from the crowd, and back toward Jesus. 

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90. Ideologies, Freedom & Critical Thinking with Mat and Phil from the Way of Life Podcast

About this Episode

Get ready for an enlightening journey with Mat and Phil from the Way of Life Podcast, as we delve into pressing topics that shape our everyday lives. Mat shares his background of growing up in Australia, being heavily involved in church, and pursuing pastoral ministry, while Phil gives an insight into his life as an underground coal miner and his interest in video production. The conversation also dive into the importance of meeting people where they are and encouraging them to think critically about what they hear. 

In our current global climate, how can we ignore the ideological shifts happening all around us? Mat and Phil take us on a fascinating journey, exploring the transformation of the understanding of harm in the progressive movement and its impact on politics in the U.S. and Australia. We probe into the concept of democracy, examining its potential pitfalls, and discuss whether sources of information like TikTok are skewing our perception of harm. 

But we don’t stop there. Our conversation meanders into the realm of military alliances, political apathy, and the intertwining of governmental and religious institutions. We scrutinize the US-Australia military alliance, ponder the implications of an increasingly intrusive government, and discuss the possibility of a U.S. government collapse. Are our understandings of freedom without boundaries leading us astray? 

In the final part of our discussion, we explore how the concept of freedom without boundaries can lead to a herd mentality and discuss the necessity of teaching people to think independently. We also assess the intertwining of church and state in the United States and how this contrasts with the Australian church scene. Wrapping up, we share the mission of the Way of Life podcast – equipping people to think critically and fostering a space for open dialogue. So, buckle up and prepare to see the world through a unique lens!

Connect with Mat and Phil:

Facebook Way of Life Podcast

Youtube Way of Life Podcast

Spotify Way of Life Podcast

Apple Way of Life Podcast

Episode Timestamps:

01:39 Mat’s Background

• Christian 

• drummer

• Works with Youth at Church now

• Meeting people where they’re at

05:33 Phil’s Background

• Underground coal miner

• Video producer

• Joined ministry at 13

• Started a podcast with Mat

09:25 Leaving Mainstream Media for Alternative Sources

• Getting information from podcasts

• Media Landscape in Australia

• Liberal vs. labor parties

• Democracy and tyranny

• Does the government ensure peace?

15:14 Shifting Definition of Harm among generations

• Physical harm vs. psychological harm 

• Tik Tok, Podcasts, Youtube raising a generation

• Role of feedback in forming ideas/beliefs

• In such polarized times people are afraid to say something doesn’t make sense

• The middle has been eroded

• Idiocracy (2006)

25:19 Australian and US Government Alliance

• American government is entertainment for Austrsilians

• Click-bait

• Gary Johnson

• Democrats being anti-war in the past

• Yemen and Saudis

• Jesus worked towards peace and the government alway does harm

• Church is outsourcing charity to the state

• Australians don’t like to talk about government as openly as Americans

• Christian identity is wrapped up in political identity in from the Australian point of view

• Fine in australia for enrolling to vote and not submitting ballot sheet

• “Donkey vote”

• Crocodile Dundee

• Australians a generally trusting

• Government was less invasive

• John Anderson

• Small government vs. what exist today

• Can we go back?

• Patriot Act

• US involvement with Ukraine

• Oil Protectors of America

• Poppy fields in Afghanistan 

• Peter Zhan

• US’s role in global trade route “protection”

45:37 How Australian churches Interact with Government

• Politics does not make it into the pulpit

• Some Christian lobbyist groups

50:51 Way of Life Podcast

• post-Christian nation

• Freedom without boundary

• Never give more than three options in retail

• Crippled by information young people go with the herd

• Being very passionate about something you have not thought very hard on

• John 14:6

• Doing show live because Q&A is big portion of the show

• Learning to disagree with others in a healthy way

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