45. Radically Following Jesus with Shane Claiborne

In this episode, Shane Claiborne joins us to talk about living like Jesus, abortion, gun violence, Christian nationalism, and whether we should get involved in politics as a way to help others live in freedom. 

We know the teachings of Jesus, but what does it look like to actually follow them? How can we care for other humans as God instructed, and how can we do that when we live amidst a corrupt and often unjust government? As Shane points out, “If anybody should be suspicious of state power, it should be Christians who worship an executed and risen savior.” Our Lord was killed by the government. We should not trust in our rulers, but in Him, but, as Shane would argue, we can use their system to help people by getting bad policies changed.

Who is Shane Claiborne? He is a radical advocate for living as if Jesus really meant what He said. He heads up an intentional, simple-living Christian community called Red Letter Christians, and is the co-founder of The Simple Way, an intentional neighborhood-based Christian community in North Philadelphia. Shane has been to jail multiple times while advocating for the poor and against war. You can connect with him on his personal website, Twitter, email, and Instagram. 

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Timestamps:

1:26 What following Jesus looks like

• “Man, I was pretty together, met Jesus, and He messed me up.” -Shane

  • Teachings like

    • To be great, become the least

    • Love your enemies

    • Sell possessions and give to the poor

  • Started a community for local homeless people who were being evicted from a church. They

    • Fix up abandoned houses

    • Create gardens

    • Paint murals

    • Care for neighbors’ needs 

7:24 Pro-life or just anti-abortion?

• “We shouldn't be in other countries dropping bombs on people” -Craig

• One-issue voting is inconsistent

• Christians are the obstacle to progress

9:45 A Bible in one hand; a newspaper in the other

•  Know what's going on in the world around you

• “When you look at Jesus, He was talking about the Kingdom of God coming on Earth, as it is in Heaven. Not just something we go up to when we die, but something we bring down while we're alive.” - Shane

• Study the Bible and sociology together

11:41 Christian Nationalism

• Trump didn’t change the church; he revealed their true beliefs 

• “A lot of white Christians have been shaped more by whiteness than by Christ.” -Shane

• People use the Gospel to justify all kinds of atrocities

• Reconstructing the Gospel: Finding Freedom from Slaveholder Religion by Jonathan Wilson-Hartgrove

• Compare Trump and his policies to The Sermon on the Mount

• Christians betrayed Jesus with a kiss for a couple seats on the Supreme Court

• Welcome the stranger -- not because you're Republican or Democrat, but because you follow Jesus, and that is His example

• “A lot of times it's been more Fox news or a political party that's shaping our imagination than the Gospel” -Shane

• Christians wind up saying ugly things like that they want to go to the border and shoot people when they follow Trump instead of Christ

19:15 Nothing new

• People fear the transfer of power from white people

  • They want to take America back; to make it great again

    • To counteract any progress Black Lives Matter made

• Fear and love cannot occupy the same space 

  • “What would America look like if love rather than fear were compelling our policies and shaping our minds on a lot of these things?” -Shane

22:45 Debate: Do we need to get involved in politics to love our neighbor?

• Shane: Laws can either improve or destroy people's lives

  •  We need to work to get harmful laws changed for the good of our neighbor

• Craig: Politics are not our thing; we're of a different Kingdom

  •  Jesus didn't use politics to advance His agenda

• Shane: Opting out has consequences

  • We're not putting our hope in a politician; we’re voting to change policies that make life harder for our friends

  • Vote on behalf of those Jesus blessed

    • The poor, the mourning, the refugees, the incarcerated... 

  • Don't only help them through the ballot. Work every day for their freedom.

  • Fight for laws that make it harder to kill them

• Craig: Ballots don't do that. Voting doesn't change anything and doesn't help anyone.

• Shane: We should use every weapon we have; harness the principalities 

• Craig: Christians live on the fringes of society and shouldn't be involved in the system at all

• Shane: Moving to a community with black folks changed my perspective

  • Dr. King went to jail for political change 

  • “I do believe that the church is a primary instrument for God transforming the world.”

  • God can redeem the system using us

  • Legislation helps people flourish

    • We use it to keep people safe in cars; need for guns too

    • Jesus judges nations on how they cared for the poor

31:14 The early Church’s politics

• They were called atheists because they denied the deity of Rome

• They disrupted the empire by claiming another Emperor

• But Jesus didn’t kill anyone to overthrow the empire

  • He died.

  • And many details leading to His death can be seen as a parody to Caesar’s rule

• “If anybody should be suspicious of state power, it should be Christians who worship an executed and risen Savior.” - Shane

• Irreconcilable vocations

  • Brothel, executioner, anyone who had to kill for the state

    • Jesus said love your enemies, which means not killing them

• They were consistently against all violence

  • Abortion, execution, gladiators…

36:09 Living like Christians

• People use the Bible to justify terrible things

• We cannot live like a Christian and go against the teachings of Christ

• Gandhi wished we would. He liked Jesus, but was not a fan of the church

• We should view the entire Bible’s contents through the lens of Jesus 

39:13 Guns into Gardens Project; Beating Guns book

• Old Testament prophets speak of turning swords into plows

  • Similarly, turning guns into garden tools

    • And crosses

      • One says I want to kill; the other says I’m willing to die

    • And jewelry for victims of gun violence to wear and sell

  • People say it's not a gun problem; it's a heart problem

    • It's both

    • God transforms the heart; people transform the laws

  • Jesus should inspire us to protect life

42:04 The American Revolution

•   Claimed to be following God

  •  If they were, they never would have gone to war 

  • America began with guns. It's impossible to imagine our country without them

    • How else could they have started a country on stolen land with stolen labor?

42:56 Red-letter Christian Intentional Community

• A glimpse of Heaven on Earth

• Sharing everything in common end taking care of each other

• Reducing gun violence through:  

  • Hospitality

  • Drug addiction recovery

  • Lifting people out of the ditch

    • Figure out what's landing them in the ditch in the first place

      • It’s often government laws and policies

        • So we vote and advocate for change

• It'll probably land you in jail 

  • Charged with a felony for leaving water in the desert for immigrants 

  • Obey the good laws; disobey the bad ones

    • Expose how crazy they are by loudly getting in trouble 

    • A rich tradition of civil disobedience 

    • Be willing to suffer the consequences of exposing injustice

• Issues around the world

  • Yemen, Iraq, Afghanistan…

    • Preemptive Love

• We spend more on the military than social uplift and are headed for spiritual death 

44. Love without Politics with Bruxy Cavey

Bruxy Cavey is a Canadian pastor working with The Meeting House, a church with roots in the Anabaptist movement. He has written a book about having a relationship with Jesus called The End of Religion. You can find him on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and bruxy.com. 

Satan has always been after Christians and works to seduce them with power, he convinces people they can make their country more Christian through politics. He pushes us to seek religion rather than relationship. Bruxy is here today to teach about a different way to change the world-- the way the Anabaptists follow; the way of love and non-violence; the way of Jesus. Anabaptists believe politics has nothing to do with Jesus. We should ignore what the government is doing and focus on our Kingdom mission, which is to love people and introduce them to Love Himself. You can find more about the anabaptists’ background and beliefs here: Radical Reformation Teaching. 

Timestamps: 

6:00 Political Identity

• Is in Jesus’ Kingdom

• “This is a threatening concept, to say ‘Jesus is inviting us into a whole new way of finding our ethnic and national and political identities in this world: the Good News of the Kingdom.’ That means we've got a king-- that's Jesus. And it also means that we are citizens of a different way of being in this world.” -Bruxy

6:57 Ambassadors 

• Less of an American citizen, and more a citizen of the Jesus Nation 

• “I’m not here to be a good Canadian; I’m here to be an ambassador to Canada” -Bruxy

8:00 A Threat to the Establishment

• “If Christians aren't a threat to the state, then we're probably not living like we're supposed to be.” -Craig

• Jesus threatened:

  • The religious leaders by giving grace and taking away people’s need for sacrifice

  • The political leaders by claiming to be King

    • They mocked him with royal clothes

      • But it was all true

      • “He is being crowned king of the alternative kingdom that doesn't overcome the world through might and power. It overcomes the world through suffering.” 

      • The cross was His coronation ceremony

11:49 Christian Nation

• America has many Christian ideals at its root

  • Therefore people think it is a Christian nation

  • “The whole idea is oxymoronic. I mean, there's no such thing as a Christian nation. The people are Christians or not Christians, but nations are not Christians unless it's the Jesus nation, the alternative Kingdom.” -Bruxy

• “Jesus doesn't teach his followers how to use their power to govern well.” -Craig

  • Our goal is not to elect a Christian politician

    • It is to love others better

    • “coercive power may have its place in a secular state, but not in the kingdom of Christ.” -Bruxy

  • People who want to be seen as good Christian politicians must look to Moses/the Old Testament for Biblical support of their actions

    • Jesus does not offer advice on how to govern

    • We don’t follow Moses; we follow Jesus

16:27 Contradictory Bible?

• The Old Testament seems to say one thing, but the New Testament says the opposite

• Jesus cut a new covenant; things changed

  • “That's why it's a bit of a misuse of the Bible to say, Well, I found this in the Bible… So I guess it's for today.”  -Bruxy

  • The Bible is a story of going from an old religious way to the way of freedom and love

  • “And of course, if we're not Jewish, it never was our covenant in the first place. We enter the story of God's people through Jesus.” -Bruxy

18:50 God is Love

• “If you want to get to know what God is like, just stare at Jesus and you get to know.” -Bruxy

• The universe was birthed because of Love

  • To be in sync with Love is to be in sync with the reason for the universe

•  It’s very simple; follow Jesus. Love.

  • When we make it more complicated, we make it complicated for people to find Him

23:17 The Problem of Power

• Basically, everything that distracts us from love can be boiled down to one thing: power

• We think we're going to solve The World's problems in our own power rather than just being humble and accepting God's gift

• The devil doesn't fret if we believe in God; he offers religion to distract us with power

• That's why every generation has a movement of people who go back to simplicity

25:50 Anabaptists

• Amish, Mennonite, and Anabaptists come from the same root

• “Repent” means to rethink and renew

  • It's a lifelong commitment to be willing to repent anytime you find something isn't right

  • Anabaptist is the renewal movement

  • “You gotta be willing to rethink some of the stuff you’ve assumed is Christian.” -Bruxy

•  The Catholics needed to repent, so some of them started the Protestant church

  •  But their idea was that Christians needed to follow the Bible

    •  The Bible can be used to justify just about anything

    •  They continued to fight wars and be tied to governments

    • Many wars were against the Catholics

    • The Anabaptist movement was born during this time

    • They focused on Jesus and were pacifists

    • They were persecuted by both the Protestants and Catholics for having different views

    • Then, some of them ran to America and hunkered down to try to be invisible

    • They chose not to interact with society

    • Amish & Mennonite

34:08 No Violence

• “It’s ok to die for a cause, but it’s not ok to kill for a cause.”

• Change from coercion, fighting, and laws to Holy Spirit’s guidance and fruit of the Spirit

• People will think you’re nuts for not defending yourself

• Passivists aren’t necessarily hippies in the forest waving flags

• “Peace should not just be the goal that you’re trying to achieve by any means necessary… Peace is the way to achieve the goal.” -Bruxy

  • Practice for the goal as you work toward its achievement

• Peaceful response to violence

  • If they hit you, calmly provide them an opportunity to hit you again

  • If they make you carry something for a mile, choose to carry it for two

    • “That first mile was slavery. The second mile is freedom.” -Bruxy

    • It shows them love

    • It might cause them to realize how cruel they are being to a fellow human

    • Defy their expectations

• “We tend to forget the effect you can have on a person's life by not killing them.” -Craig

• “The only way we can change hearts is through love. Not through the love of power.” -Bruxy 

40:55 Are Anabaptists Anti-State?

• Both Catholics and Protestants were fused with their governments

  • Whenever they found someone guilty of being a heretic, the state would have a trial and kill them for the church

  • This was like the Old Covenant where God was the religious leader of a nation

    • The anabaptists want to follow Jesus in the New Covenant

    • So, they chose to ignore what the state is doing and they separated from it

43. Christianity, Anarchism & The Lord of The Rings with Caleb Kesterson

In this episode, Craig speaks with Caleb Kesterson about his journey to Christian-Anarchy, what the Anabaptist can teach us about Christianity, and his articles, Tolkien and the Night Watchmen State and Tolkein and Power. 

Caleb is passionate about peace and was raised in Assemblies of God tradition before finding alignment with the anti-war and Jesus-centric approach of the Anabaptist. He now runs a home church, in an effort to foster discipleship and bring the teachings of Christ into the larger society. 

Craig and Caleb finish their conversation by exploring Tolkien’s The Lord of the Rings, and what Tolkien has to teach us through the novels about a voluntary society. We all know the books are better than the movies, and thankfully Caleb is here to give us that insight for a Christian-anarchist perspective.

You can connect with Caleb on Twitter @CalebMK5 and find his articles on the Bad Roman Blog.

Timestamps & starting points:

1:51 Caleb’s Background

• Bruxy Cavey & Scott Horton

• Works Agriculture

• Runs a home church

• Assemblies of God to Anabaptist

4:16 Anabaptist, the State & the Early Church

• Anti War movement

• Postcards from Babylon Documentary

• Caleb wants to see an Anabaptism that goes out into the world and meets people where they are vs. isolates 

• Keith Giles, Jesus Untangled

11:49 How Caleb found the Bad Roman Project

• Don’t always see anarchy, Christianity, and peace together

13:55 Christian Right vs. Christian Left

• “Punch people in the mouth lovingly” 

• Left is honest about Tyranny, Right more secretive; but both do the same things

• Trump vs. Obama supporters

• January 6th was trying to keep their master in office

21:00 Absurdities of Statism

• Biden bombing Syria and not ending “conflict” in Yemen vs. what he said

• Lysander Spooner - defensive voting

• Fallacy of defensive voting

  • You are still voting for someone to have power over your neighbor

• Fear voting is the worst voting

• Endorsing tyrannical actions overseas and at home

• Antiwar.com

• “Shooting people at the borders” is not a Christian sentiment

 26:35 Craig’s Social Media Strategy for making people think

• Baiting conversation, not to change minds, but for the curious ones in the comments

• Showing concern for QAnon supporters mental health 

28:26 Is Craig in a cult?

• Many ways to read the bible

  • Anabaptists start with what Jesus said/did and work from there

• Jesus, “you’ve seen me you see the father”

• Let’s get back to Jesus

• Jesus came not to cause division

  • With 30,00 denominations there is clearly some division

32:05 Caleb’s First Article:

• Disclaimer: Caleb is not a Tolkien expert

• Minarchism

• Tolkien’s Shire is voluntary

  • Hardly any positions in government

  • There is a sheriff

  • A governor 

  • Hierarchy established through family origin 

• rangers chose to protect the land they are not forced

38:37 Article #2: Tolkien and Power

• Gandolf’s rejection of the ring and the pitfalls of power

• John 6 Jesus rejects being king over people by force

• Matthew 25 Jesus explains his new kingdom

• 1 Corinthians 127