76. "What about Romans 13?" with Matt Mouzakis

About this Episode

Craig is joined by Matt Mouzakis, worship pastor and co-host of Expedition 44, a popular theology podcast where the ancient languages and context of the Bible are discussed. Matt is doing his doctorate in New Testament studies, specializing in the passages often cited by Christian statists when they want to defend strict obedience to the government.

Matt explains how words like submit (hypotassesthō), and concepts like paying taxes take on very different meanings when placed in their proper context. Read Romans 13 through the eyes of a first-century Jew, see it in a fresh new light, and be prepared to confound the next statist who asks you, "But what about Romans 13?".

In fact, the only one to whom people owe allegiance and should be under the authority of is Jesus Himself. When we desire to put another into power over ourselves and our neighbors, it is a sin because humans are not to have authority over one another.

Craig and Matt delve into those passages used against women in ministry. Again, we discover that read in the context of the time and in their original language, nothing suggests women are to be subject to men in God's kingdom. We find God's ideals at the beginning and end of the Bible, and that is God alone reigning over humanity.

Expedition 44:

YouTube

Website

Covenant Theological Seminary

Expedition 44 episode on Romans 13

Ryan's book: This is the Way

Episode Timestamps:

1:54 – Who is Matt Mouzakis?

• Worship pastor at "Bapticostal" church

• Father of 4

• Theology geek doing Doctorate in New Testament

• Co-host of Expedition 44 podcast with Dr Ryan (Head Chair of Biblical Studies at Covenant Theological Seminary

• Expedition 44

• Discuss the ancient context of the Bible

• Salvation is a journey "expedition" 

• The separatist ancient Essene community gave themselves the number 22

• God doubles the portion, which is where the 44 comes from 

8:15 – The Church of Nationalism

• American pastors don't speak against the entanglement of Christians and the state

• Sometimes they advocate for candidates

• The early church was outspoken against the Roman Empire

• But it is glossed over these days

• Churches seek power through the state now

• There's no basis in the Bible for Christians to be seeking any power

• We need no king but Christ

• Politics comes into your theology

• Some would say that representative government is different from serving another king

• In the first two pages and last two pages of the Bible is where you find God's ideals

• Everything in the middle is messed up

• Humans are not to have authority over one another

• Not even men over women

• The hebrew word "Tsela" should be translated as "side" rather than "rib"

• On the last page of the Bible, you see men and women under God's authority

• That's God's ideal

• That should inform our politics

• We are ambassadors from another King

• Our government has its own kingdom

• The fall is the "defilement of all of creation"

• There are multiple falls in the Old Testament

• When people usurp God's authority, humans rule other humans

• That is not a part of God's ideals

18:58 – Women in Ministry

• A topic that is spoken about on Expedition 44

• Women were the first to tell of Jesus' resurrection

• The men were in hiding

• Paul was very egalitarian

• When we don't look at the Bible in context, it gets confusing

• If Genesis 3 is reversed in Jesus, the church should reflect that

• The local context of Paul telling women to be quiet was an all-women-led cult

• Right before that, he tells the men off for being angry

• None should have authority over others in the church

• The women were trying to teach before they had learned

• Greek tenses matter in better translation

• Keith Giles's episode about women and the church

• Women stayed at home and were less educated in Paul's day

• Women were to learn but not interrupt the service

• 1 Corinthians 14: 34-35 might be an error added to the text based on a scribble by a scribe

• Philip Payne's book – One In Christ

• Expedition 44 episode – Women Must Be Silent?

26:16 – Romans 13

• The words "submit" and "obey" are two different words

• Romans 13 is the go-to for opponents of "No King but Christ"

• Romans 13 should be read in light of Romans 12

• The chapter breaks weren't there originally

• Romans chapters 12-16 should be read as a chunk

• All the things that Jesus said about enemy love do not fit with Romans 13

• Romans 13:1 & 5 Submit is hypotassesthō

• Defined as voluntary yielding

• Obey God is hupakouó

• David Bently Heart – New Testament

• It is necessary that we obey God rather than man

• The Bible should be read as a whole

• The whip that Jesus used was a common tool to heard animals

• He didn't harm any people

• He was angry at the extortion in the temple

• The gospel spreads by word of mouth too

• "Governing authorities"

• A common expression for anyone with authority

• Not necessarily government

• The people of the day were in Rome

• A place of multiple layers of governing 

• Neighborhood watch role, rather than law enforcement

• Rome wasn't taxed at the time when Romans was written

• Romans 13:1 - exousia means evil powers

• And appears in Ephesians 6:12

• Paul understood demons controlled the empires

• Jesus didn't rebuke Satan when he offered Him the kingdoms of the world

• Deuteronomy 32 – Moses says God divided mankind and gave them to the sons of God

42:18 – Is voting a sin?

• 1 Samuel 8

• Craig has concluded that voting is a sin

• Jesus said the gentiles lorded power over others, but we were not to be the same

• God said it was not Samuel that was rejected, rather it was God Himself

• Rejecting God is a sin

• Sleeping is better than exercising power over others

• Matt and Steve discussed whether or not Christians should vote

• The desire to have a king is to reject God

• Voting is the desire to put someone in power over ourselves and neighbors

• Therefore, voting is a rejection of God

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69. From angry An-Cap to peaceful Christian with John Krueger

About this Episode

Craig is joined by John Krueger for a conversation about his journey from being an angry Anarcho-Capitalist to a peaceful Anarcho-Christian. Unjust police killings, SWAT raids gone wrong and harsh lockdowns made John angry. He was eager to learn how to use a gun and imagined himself needing to protect his family from police violence. In the midst of this, the Holy Spirit met John and showed him a peaceful option.

Libertarian philosophy is peaceful, but we need Jesus and His word to have the whole picture. Craig and John advocate for Christian pacifism and examine what was going on in their hearts at the points when they both contemplated joining the military. Craig and John discuss the libertarian and Christian anarchist positions on the decriminalization of drugs, the real needs of terrorists, the US at war, gun control, and other contentious current issues.

The state is coercion and violence. Laws are enforced with fines that are begrudgingly paid to avoid the threat of violence or time spent in a cage. You cannot make people peaceful like this, using the state’s methods. But rather, we need to be those who allow the Holy Spirit to work in us to change the hearts and minds of those surrounding us; that is how social change works in the Kingdom. Let’s listen to Jesus and do things His way, forsaking violence and anger. Let’s work towards peace.

Connect with John Krueger on

• Practical Christology

• TikTok

Episode Timestamps:

1:27 – Who is John Krueger?

• From Columbus, Ohio

  • Grew up attending church

• 1 Corinthians 5:9-13 stood out

  • Paul writes about grace

• Journey to anarchism

  • Read Blue Like Jazz

    • Jesus was not a republican or a conservative

    • Became politically independent

  • Eventually considered voting

    • Began researching libertarianism

      • Clicked with his understanding of the Grace of God

  • Took a few more years to become an anarcho-capitalist

8:58 – Libertarians, drugs, and terrorists

• It’s easy to understand decriminalizing marijuana 

• Harder to understand decriminalizing heroin use

  • People shouldn’t be locked in a cage for it

  • People should be free to make their own choices

    • Provided they aren’t hurting others

• Osama Bin Laden needed Jesus

  • Not bombs

  • We can’t bomb people into peace

    • If we bomb all sinners, there will be no one left

• John and Craig let go of the war stuff last

  • The history of the Middle East is important

  • The US is still at war

    • More people are mad at the US for continuously bombing them

• Jesus said in His Kingdom:

  • You rule by washing feet

    • Only pagans lord it over their subjects

  • But instead, our “Christian Nation” goes to war

    • To spread democracy

• We don’t need the government for roads

• We don’t need police

• Losing friends because of speaking out about:

  • Getting troops home

  • Veteran suicides

  • Broken men and families

  • Sending the poor to fight a rich man’s war

20:11 – Craig and John considered joining the military

• Craig wanted to kill people out of anger after 911

  • Application rejected

    • 4 pounds over the weight limit

• John wanted to join the military because he felt powerless

  • Wanted to be great in battle - like David

  • Experienced God’s compassion for those killed on both sides

• Christians still justify war and killing

  • Jesus said when you have seen me, you have seen the Father

  • There is nothing about Jesus’ life that says you can kill in war

• Pacifism is the way for Christians

  • Craig still gets a hard time from Christians for his pacifist stance

  • The early church was 100% pacifist

    • Even to their own deaths

  • Jesus healed the Roman soldier and admonished Peter

    • When Jesus disarmed Peter, he disarmed every Christian

26:24 – Libertarians and Gun Control

• After shootings those on the left talk about taking away guns

• But guns will be taken away by force

  • Giving more power to the state

• Need to study history

• We don’t advocate for gun control

  • It’s enforced by violence

  • We should bear God’s peace instead

• The left sees calls to reduce state size as calls to let people starve

• John does not own guns, 

  • Only advocates for less government action

• We don’t use the state for any reason

• The same people who take guns away are those who shoot unarmed black men

• Fines are enforced through the threat of violence

• The ‘hero’ who ended the life of a would-be shooter still ended a life

• Jesus would not be training churches to enact violence

• We are here to bring the gospel to people

37:10 – From angry An-Cap to peaceful Christian Anarchist

• When John was an An-Cap he was angry at the state

  • Police killings made him angry

  • Made him want to get into guns

• Angry at government shutdowns because of shutdowns

• Holy Spirit showed him it would be better to defy the government in peaceful ways

  • Sneakily helping people

  • Blessing those who curse

  • Not needing to worry about what to say in front of judges

• Libertarians are never happy with the government

  • No matter who is in power they are stuffing everything up

  • Anger is not the fruit of the spirit

• Romans 11-14 need to be read together

  • Our heart position should be peaceful

• Libertarians need Jesus to have the full picture

42:48 – Romans 13 and libertarianism

• “Submit” and “obey” are not the same

  • When Christians get it wrong: 

    • They end up supporting government atrocities

    • Lives will be ruined

    • The state becomes an idol

• The early church withheld communion from people who worked for the state

  • Unless people were already soldiers

    • And had sworn off killing or oppressing people

    • None wore their weapons

    • All were to serve

• Getting Christians into power will not help

  • It is no longer Christianity

• The power is the wrong power

  • The Holy Spirit is the only power we need

  • Political power is force

  • Christians do not need to take the ”Seven Mountains” of power

  • These do not sound like Jesus

• Polycarp would not denounce Jesus

  • In the face of his own death

  • King Jesus has never done me any harm

• Everything that the state does harms somebody in some fashion

  • If they are helping you, they are harming someone else

  • The state is not a protector

• Jesus Christ is the only King

  • He wants the best for us

54:12 – How should we pray for government?

• We should pray for government and leaders

  • Craig prays for the state to end

  • The current chaos is caused by the state

  • We need to follow Jesus and walk away

  • John prays for leadership to know the gospel

    • Not the American folklore

    • But the true gospel

• Craig will take the words of the early church fathers over pastors

  • When modern pastors disagree with the early church

  • They still screwed things up

  • They aren’t Jesus

  • They were closer in time to Jesus

  • We need to get back to that

    • What we are doing now as the church is not working

• The Reformers had a blind spot when it came to the church

  • They killed people

• The Anabaptists became the Mennonites and Amish

  • They were peaceful

• Catholics are going back to mysticism

  • The church fathers and grace teachings

1:02:54 – Let’s bring it back to Jesus

• Listen to Jesus

  • Love your neighbor

  • Love your enemy

  • Love God

• It’s impossible to follow His teachings

  • But we should try:

    • Working towards good

    • Not working toward violence

    • Not working towards anger or hate

    • Working towards peace

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45. Radically Following Jesus with Shane Claiborne

In this episode, Shane Claiborne joins us to talk about living like Jesus, abortion, gun violence, Christian nationalism, and whether we should get involved in politics as a way to help others live in freedom. 

We know the teachings of Jesus, but what does it look like to actually follow them? How can we care for other humans as God instructed, and how can we do that when we live amidst a corrupt and often unjust government? As Shane points out, “If anybody should be suspicious of state power, it should be Christians who worship an executed and risen savior.” Our Lord was killed by the government. We should not trust in our rulers, but in Him, but, as Shane would argue, we can use their system to help people by getting bad policies changed.

Who is Shane Claiborne? He is a radical advocate for living as if Jesus really meant what He said. He heads up an intentional, simple-living Christian community called Red Letter Christians, and is the co-founder of The Simple Way, an intentional neighborhood-based Christian community in North Philadelphia. Shane has been to jail multiple times while advocating for the poor and against war. You can connect with him on his personal website, Twitter, email, and Instagram. 

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Timestamps:

1:26 What following Jesus looks like

• “Man, I was pretty together, met Jesus, and He messed me up.” -Shane

  • Teachings like

    • To be great, become the least

    • Love your enemies

    • Sell possessions and give to the poor

  • Started a community for local homeless people who were being evicted from a church. They

    • Fix up abandoned houses

    • Create gardens

    • Paint murals

    • Care for neighbors’ needs 

7:24 Pro-life or just anti-abortion?

• “We shouldn't be in other countries dropping bombs on people” -Craig

• One-issue voting is inconsistent

• Christians are the obstacle to progress

9:45 A Bible in one hand; a newspaper in the other

•  Know what's going on in the world around you

• “When you look at Jesus, He was talking about the Kingdom of God coming on Earth, as it is in Heaven. Not just something we go up to when we die, but something we bring down while we're alive.” - Shane

• Study the Bible and sociology together

11:41 Christian Nationalism

• Trump didn’t change the church; he revealed their true beliefs 

• “A lot of white Christians have been shaped more by whiteness than by Christ.” -Shane

• People use the Gospel to justify all kinds of atrocities

• Reconstructing the Gospel: Finding Freedom from Slaveholder Religion by Jonathan Wilson-Hartgrove

• Compare Trump and his policies to The Sermon on the Mount

• Christians betrayed Jesus with a kiss for a couple seats on the Supreme Court

• Welcome the stranger -- not because you're Republican or Democrat, but because you follow Jesus, and that is His example

• “A lot of times it's been more Fox news or a political party that's shaping our imagination than the Gospel” -Shane

• Christians wind up saying ugly things like that they want to go to the border and shoot people when they follow Trump instead of Christ

19:15 Nothing new

• People fear the transfer of power from white people

  • They want to take America back; to make it great again

    • To counteract any progress Black Lives Matter made

• Fear and love cannot occupy the same space 

  • “What would America look like if love rather than fear were compelling our policies and shaping our minds on a lot of these things?” -Shane

22:45 Debate: Do we need to get involved in politics to love our neighbor?

• Shane: Laws can either improve or destroy people's lives

  •  We need to work to get harmful laws changed for the good of our neighbor

• Craig: Politics are not our thing; we're of a different Kingdom

  •  Jesus didn't use politics to advance His agenda

• Shane: Opting out has consequences

  • We're not putting our hope in a politician; we’re voting to change policies that make life harder for our friends

  • Vote on behalf of those Jesus blessed

    • The poor, the mourning, the refugees, the incarcerated... 

  • Don't only help them through the ballot. Work every day for their freedom.

  • Fight for laws that make it harder to kill them

• Craig: Ballots don't do that. Voting doesn't change anything and doesn't help anyone.

• Shane: We should use every weapon we have; harness the principalities 

• Craig: Christians live on the fringes of society and shouldn't be involved in the system at all

• Shane: Moving to a community with black folks changed my perspective

  • Dr. King went to jail for political change 

  • “I do believe that the church is a primary instrument for God transforming the world.”

  • God can redeem the system using us

  • Legislation helps people flourish

    • We use it to keep people safe in cars; need for guns too

    • Jesus judges nations on how they cared for the poor

31:14 The early Church’s politics

• They were called atheists because they denied the deity of Rome

• They disrupted the empire by claiming another Emperor

• But Jesus didn’t kill anyone to overthrow the empire

  • He died.

  • And many details leading to His death can be seen as a parody to Caesar’s rule

• “If anybody should be suspicious of state power, it should be Christians who worship an executed and risen Savior.” - Shane

• Irreconcilable vocations

  • Brothel, executioner, anyone who had to kill for the state

    • Jesus said love your enemies, which means not killing them

• They were consistently against all violence

  • Abortion, execution, gladiators…

36:09 Living like Christians

• People use the Bible to justify terrible things

• We cannot live like a Christian and go against the teachings of Christ

• Gandhi wished we would. He liked Jesus, but was not a fan of the church

• We should view the entire Bible’s contents through the lens of Jesus 

39:13 Guns into Gardens Project; Beating Guns book

• Old Testament prophets speak of turning swords into plows

  • Similarly, turning guns into garden tools

    • And crosses

      • One says I want to kill; the other says I’m willing to die

    • And jewelry for victims of gun violence to wear and sell

  • People say it's not a gun problem; it's a heart problem

    • It's both

    • God transforms the heart; people transform the laws

  • Jesus should inspire us to protect life

42:04 The American Revolution

•   Claimed to be following God

  •  If they were, they never would have gone to war 

  • America began with guns. It's impossible to imagine our country without them

    • How else could they have started a country on stolen land with stolen labor?

42:56 Red-letter Christian Intentional Community

• A glimpse of Heaven on Earth

• Sharing everything in common end taking care of each other

• Reducing gun violence through:  

  • Hospitality

  • Drug addiction recovery

  • Lifting people out of the ditch

    • Figure out what's landing them in the ditch in the first place

      • It’s often government laws and policies

        • So we vote and advocate for change

• It'll probably land you in jail 

  • Charged with a felony for leaving water in the desert for immigrants 

  • Obey the good laws; disobey the bad ones

    • Expose how crazy they are by loudly getting in trouble 

    • A rich tradition of civil disobedience 

    • Be willing to suffer the consequences of exposing injustice

• Issues around the world

  • Yemen, Iraq, Afghanistan…

    • Preemptive Love

• We spend more on the military than social uplift and are headed for spiritual death 

1. Abby Cleckner - On Economics, War, and the Kingdom of Heaven

What does economics have to do with the Kingdom of Heaven?

In our first episode Craig sits down with our blog contributor, Abby Cleckner, to discuss her article Austrian Economics and The Kingdom of Heaven, the weirdness of war, and so much more. You can read Abby's latest blog post and learn more about the Bad Roman Project by visiting thebadroman.com.

Below you will find links for further exploration on topics Craig and Abby hit on in the show: 

 1:30 - Austrian Economics Wiki

1:52 - Keynesian Economics Wiki

5:37 - Minimum Wage 

6:07 - Immigration and the economy

14:09 - PTSD in soldiers

16:30 - Sermon on the Mount

23:25 - Soldiers & shooting

27:18 - Jesus Untangled by Keith Giles

30:50 - Incarceration in the US