162. Iranian Christians, ICE Raids, and the Cost of Following Jesus with Ara Torosian

What does it mean to follow Jesus when governments demand your allegiance, your silence, or your fear?

That question is not abstract in this episode. It has a name, a face, a church family, and tears on a Los Angeles sidewalk and Iranian streets. Craig sits down with Ara Torosian, an Iranian-born Armenian pastor now living in Los Angeles, to talk about Iranian Christians, war, asylum, ICE arrests, and what it means to follow Jesus when governments on every side demand our fear.

Ara’s story does not fit into our neat American boxes. He loves Iran. He loves America. He has suffered under the Iranian regime. He has been and watched Christians be persecuted in Iran. He has seen fellow asylum seekers be detained here in the United States government. That kind of story makes slogans fall apart fast.

And maybe that is the point.

Because if Jesus is Lord, then no flag gets to blind us. No empire gets a blank check. No ruler gets to replace mercy. No King but Christ.

When the government Becomes a Teacher of Fear

Ara was born in Iran in 1979, the year of the Iranian Revolution. He grew up as part of an Armenian Christian minority in a country shaped by pressure, control, and fear. As a child, he remembers being pushed to step on painted U.S. flags and Israeli flags at school while chants were taught like lessons.

That is what governments do. They train children to hate the “enemy” before the children even know what the word means.

But here is the catch: the U.S. does this too. Maybe the songs are different. Maybe the flags are treated with more reverence. Maybe the slogans sound more polished. But when any government teaches us who to fear, who to bomb, who to cage, and who to ignore, Christians should pause.

Jesus never said, “Blessed are the well-propagandized.” He said, “Blessed are the peacemakers.”

The Underground Church and the Cost of Saying Yes

Ara came to faith as a teenager after reading the Bible in Farsi. He knew from the start that following Jesus could cost him. This was not church as a hobby. This was not Sunday morning culture. This was a dangerous yes.

“When I say, ‘Yes, Lord, I wanna follow you,’ I knew this is going to be dangerous. This might cost my life.” — Ara, around 10:17

That kind of faith exposes how soft our U.S. church games can be. We argue about music styles, coffee brands, and which politician God supposedly likes this year. Meanwhile, brothers and sisters in Iran have been arrested, beaten, imprisoned, and killed for gathering around Scripture.

Ara says the church in Iran went underground after pressure increased. And yet, the gospel kept moving. Not through government power. Not through a Christian nation. Not through forced religion.

Through witness. Through courage. Through people hungry for truth.

War, Peace, and the Sermon on the Mount

One of the hardest parts of this conversation is the tension around war. Ara has seen evil up close. He has watched people suffer under the Iranian regime. He understands why many Iranians are desperate for outside pressure and even military help.

Craig does not brush that pain aside. But he also asks the question Bad Romans have to ask:

“As I read the Sermon on the Mount, where am I gonna see this in the words of Jesus?” — Craig, 33:25

That question should haunt us in the best way.

Because the government always has a reason to bomb. Always. It is always freedom, safety, justice, defense, liberation, or national interest. But Jesus calls us to enemy-love, mercy, prayer, and cross-shaped faithfulness.

Ara says plainly, “As a Christian, I want peace. I want peace for all world.” He also admits the world is broken and the answers are not simple.

That honesty matters. We do not need cheap answers. We need Jesus-shaped ones.

The Church Is Not a Political Platform

Ara shares something every U.S. church should hear. In his own church, people have wanted to bring political loyalty into the pulpit. Some support Iranian opposition leaders. Some want the church to bless a movement or party.

Ara refuses.

“In my church, my platform is for Bible and preaching the gospel.” — Ara, around 37:34–38:23

Amen and amen.

The church is not a campaign office. It is not a nationalist clubhouse. It is not a place to crown Caesar, Trump, Biden, Pahlavi, or anyone else. The church belongs to Christ.

That does not mean Christians stop caring about real suffering. It means we care without handing our worship to rulers.

When ICE Looks Like the Regime You Fled

Then the episode turns from Iran to Los Angeles.

Ara describes Iranian Christian asylum seekers from his congregation being detained by ICE, including people with pending asylum cases and legal paperwork. He says one couple had lawyers, documents, and a live asylum case when they were arrested.

Ara watched masked agents detain people from his church. It brought him back to Iran.

“Seven minutes I was crying… Because that triggered me back in Iran.” — Ara, 52:49–53:00

That sentence should stop us cold.

What does it say when a pastor who fled persecution sees masked agents in U.S. uniforms and feels like he is back under the terror he escaped?

This is where “law and order” talk gets tested by Jesus. These are not talking points. These are image-bearers. These are families. These are people seeking refuge. Ara says it clearly: “They are just people. They are just Christians, persecuted Christian. They want freedom.”

Acting Christian, Not Using Christianity

Ara does not ask U.S. Christians to pick a party. He asks them to act like Christians.

“The Christian show the act, mercy, and also compassion for human life.” — Ara, 58:00–58:09

That is the line.

Not “Who did you vote for?”
Not “Which side owns the news cycle?”
Not “Can we make this fit our immigration policy?”

Mercy. Compassion. Human life.

Craig adds that silence in the face of oppression makes us complicit. That is not a call to worship politics. It is a call to stop hiding behind politics when our neighbors are suffering. 

May we be people who speak for the voiceless, refuse the worship of empire, and follow the crucified King.

Jesus over empire. Neighbor-love over coercion. No King but Christ.

🤝Connect with Ara Torosian🤝

• Instagram: Ara Torosian, @aratorosian (Instagram)

• Facebook: Ara Torosian (Facebook)

• Church connection: Cornerstone West Los Angeles / Farsi-speaking community; Ara has written publicly for the church about war, immigration struggle, and his congregation’s pain. (cornerstonewla.org)

• Related reporting: Christianity Today covered one Iranian Christian connected to Ara’s church being freed after nine months in immigration detention. (Christianity Today)

• Related reporting: Religion News Service covered Ara’s hunger strike and advocacy for detained Iranian Christians. (RNS)

• Related reporting: Reuters covered immigration arrests of Iranian asylum seekers in Los Angeles and Ara’s response as pastor. (Reuters)

Highlights & Takeaways

• Governments train fear. Jesus trains enemy-love.

• Iranian people are not the Iranian regime. We must stop confusing rulers with the people under them.

• War always promises freedom, but often multiplies death. Christians must test every claim by the words of Jesus.

• The church pulpit belongs to Christ. It should not become a stage for parties, rulers, or national movements.

• Persecuted Christians need protection, not political theater. Asylum seekers are neighbors, not props.

• Mercy is not weakness. It is what faithfulness looks like when the government gets cruel.

• Speaking up matters. Silence can become cooperation with oppression.

• No King but Christ means no empire or government gets our full trust. Not Iran. Not America. Not any government.

Listen

Listen for the tension in Ara’s story. He loves America, grieves Iran, opposes oppression, and still wrestles with what peace looks like in a broken world.

Reflect

Where have you let a government tell you who your enemy is? What would change if you looked at that person first through the eyes of Jesus?

Read

Read Matthew 5–7 slowly this week. Pay special attention to enemy-love, mercy, prayer, and the way Jesus rejects revenge.

Practice

Find one immigrant, refugee, prisoner, or detained family story in your own community. Do not turn it into a debate. Pray, listen, and look for one concrete act of mercy.

Episode Timestamps:

(00:00) government oppression and Iranian Christians

• Standing by or speaking up

• Iranian Christians in Iran and United States

• Ara Torosian introduced

(00:37) Meeting Ara

• Brian Drinkwine connection

• Western blind spots about Iran

• Hidden Christian communities

(02:01) Ara’s background

• Armenian Christian roots

• Born during the Iranian Revolution

• Minority life under pressure

(03:32) Discovering the Bible in Farsi

• First encounter with the gospel

• Six months of searching

• A dangerous yes to Jesus

(04:06) Childhood under government propaganda

• Anti-Western school rituals Iran

• Forced slogans and flags

• Fear taught young

(07:00) Pressure on Christians in Iran

• Closed churches

• Pastors killed or imprisoned

• Underground Christian faith in Iran

(10:17) Following Jesus when it costs

• Faith with real danger

• Prison and persecution

• American comfort challenged

(11:28) Smuggling Bibles into Iran and house arrest

• Arrest at the airport

• Two years under pressure

• Intelligence office interrogations

(12:43) The underground church grows

• House churches after closures

• Hunger for truth

• Iran as mission field

(15:03) People versus regimes

• Iranian people not the regime

• American government comparison

• government power and coercion

(17:10) War, freedom, and mixed Iranian views

• Some wanting intervention

• Some fearing bombs

• Media narratives questioned

(30:57) Craig presses the Jesus question

• War on terror comparison

• More war making more death

• Sermon on the Mount tension

(33:32) Ara’s struggle with war and peace

• Wanting peace as a Christian

• Broken world realities

• Rights versus righteousness

(34:46) Presenting, not protesting

• White House fasting

• Voice for the voiceless

• Persecuted Christians detained

(35:37) Government worship in churches

• Leaders lifted over Scripture

• Jesus as Savior, not rulers

• Peace prayed for daily

(37:03) Politics inside the church

• Iranian opposition movements

• Pulpit not for parties

• Church as gospel space

(48:01) Bad Roman donation break

• Spotfund support

• No King But Christ message

• Donations beyond costs to Memphis charities

(48:38) ICE arrests and asylum seekers

• Church members detained

• Pending asylum cases

• Legal path concerns

(52:03) Masked agents and trauma

• Couples detained

• Panic attack and emergency room

• Iran memories triggered

(54:00) Broken immigration system

• Asylum eventually granted

• Months in detention

• Families harmed

(55:44) Children praying for their dad

• Nine- and seven-year-old kids

• Detained father

• Sunday prayers

(56:08) Speaking because he can

• Freedom to criticize government in U.S. vs. Iran

• White House advocacy

• Church silence challenged

(58:00) What Christians should show

• Mercy and compassion

• Human dignity

• Persecuted Christians seeking freedom

(59:36) Silence and complicity

• Speaking out against oppression

• Possible costs

• Refusal to stay quiet

(01:01:03) Life belongs to Jesus

• Threats from Christians

• Fear admitted

• Kingdom purpose

(01:03:11) Bad Roman Salsa break

• Salsa support

• Homemade freedom joke

• No King but Christ jingle

(01:03:54) How many Christians in Iran?

• Numbers hard to know

• Underground church reality

• Fundraising claims questioned

(01:05:30) Where to find Ara

• Instagram and Facebook

• Open to honest questions

• Avoiding hateful arguments

(01:07:14) Lakers, Luka, and closing

• Basketball side quest

• Keeping in touch

• Final thanks

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152. Did Government Authority Justify the Killing of Renee Nicole Good? A Christian View with Larken Rose

Was the shooting of a Christian mother of three, Renee Nicole Good, murder or self-defense? When Christians cheer for state violence, can we claim it is God we actually worship?

Craig sits down with author and provocateur Larken Rose, not to tally clips or dunk on strangers online, but to face a deeper sickness: our culture’s worship of “authority.” The story that played out on an icy street – ICE agents, a woman in a car, three bullets – exposes something far older than any badge. It exposes a rival religion. In that light, this episode is not merely commentary. It’s a mirror for the American church and a call to return to the Sermon on the Mount. 

A House Divided: Flag or Cross?

Followers of Jesus have always had to choose between two rival kingdoms. One hangs its hope on power, control, and the threat of punishment. The other takes up a cross and washes feet. One calls enemies “targets.” The other calls enemies “neighbors.” When a woman is shot through a car window by an agent of the state, the first kingdom asks whether the procedures were followed. The second asks whether love of neighbor has been abandoned.

Many Christians don’t like that contrast. It feels unfair, even accusatory. But the Gospels force the question. Jesus blesses peacemakers, not power-brokers. He rebukes the sword. He refuses to call down fire. He walks through Samaria instead of around it. He tells us that the way we treat the least of these is the way we treat Him.

If that is the King we confess, then any event involving state violence is not just a legal question; it’s a discipleship question. What we defend in public reveals what we worship in private. When a badge is enough to change our moral standard, we have traded the Kingdom for the empire and slapped Jesus’ name on it. That is not orthodoxy. That is idolatry.

What Actually Happened Matters, but Why We Defend It Matters More

Yes, facts matter. Video matters. Angles matter. In this case, people argue over the “first shot” like it’s a courtroom riddle, then skip past the unarguable reality of two more shots fired into a vehicle at a woman who posed no lethal threat. Some admit those facts and then slip into the great American shrug: if the state did it, it must be justified. That reflex is the problem.

Larken names it without blinking: the belief in authority trains ordinary people to excuse evil when their team does it. That is not a left-versus-right issue. It is a worship issue. You can hear it whenever someone says, “Well, she should have obeyed,” as if obedience to a man with a gun is identical to obedience to God. You see it whenever the conversation dodges the moral center, “You shall not murder,” “love your neighbor as yourself,” “blessed are the merciful,” and runs to procedures, politics, and public relations.

The church must refuse that dodge. The Kingdom does not baptize bullets because the shooter is wearing a government costume. The cross does not create exceptions for uniforms. If something is murder without a badge, it is still murder with a badge.

Badges Don’t Make New Morals

Imagine this scene without uniforms. Masked, armed men surround your car, try doors, yell commands, and one of them moves into the lane in front of your hood. If any gang behaved like this, nearly everyone would call it reckless, immoral, and criminal. So why, when the label reads “federal agent,” do some believers flip their ethics upside down? The answer is ugly: many of us believe the state has divine permission to do evil that would be evil for anyone else. We won’t say it that bluntly, but our defenses give it away.

Scripture gives us no such permission. Romans 13 cannot be read against Romans 12 or the Sermon on the Mount. Paul does not cancel Jesus. The early church did not arm itself with Caesar’s sword to spread the Gospel. The fathers we quote on holiness would laugh at the idea that a title grants moral immunity. “No King but Christ” means one moral law for everyone, from the poor to the powerful. Anything else is a golden calf in red, white, and blue paint.

This is why arguments about “procedure” miss the point. Procedures do not create righteousness. Policy manuals do not erase the image of God. If the second and third shots cannot be reconciled with neighbor-love, then they cannot be reconciled with the way of Christ. Period.

Milgram in the Pew: How Training Beats Conscience

Why do otherwise decent people defend what they know is wrong? Larken points to the Milgram experiments for a grim answer. In those studies, ordinary participants believed they were shocking strangers. They trembled. They begged to stop. They knew it was wrong. But a man in a lab coat told them to continue, and their training overpowered their conscience.

The details differ, but the mechanism is the same. Our culture trains us to obey official voices and to distrust our own moral sight. We are deputized by television dramas, press conferences, and patriotic ceremonies until our instinct is to side with uniforms and treat victims as problems. Christians are not immune. We should be. We have a King who heals the ear of His enemy in a garden and rebukes the disciple holding the blade. Yet our formation is often more Fox, CNN, and campaign season than Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

Repentance here looks like deprogramming. It looks like reading Scripture as if Jesus actually meant it. It looks like confessing that we’ve excused evil because it felt safe and our team was in charge. It looks like choosing to say out loud, “That was wrong,” even when our political friends frown. In Milgram’s study, the moment one person refused, many others found courage to stop too. The Church can be that person, that voice, that pause button on cruelty.

Tactics Are Not Morals

Some Christians try to solve their discomfort by shifting the conversation: “Maybe she shouldn’t have been there.” “Maybe she should have complied.” “Maybe she should have driven away faster… or slower.” You can say a choice was unwise. You can coach your kids on better tactics when approached by armed men. But none of that baptizes murder. None of it justifies bullets.

The moral center does not move with our tactical advice. Wisdom can help us survive a sinful world; it cannot make sin righteous. When we talk about tactics to avoid talking about morals, we confess our idolatry. We tell on ourselves. We admit that we want to protect the system more than we want to protect the weak.

A healthier church would tell a different story. It would grieve a life lost. It would comfort a neighborhood. It would ask whether our habits and budgets make this kind of violence more likely. It would bless the peacemakers and retrain the reflexes that cheer for force. It would teach children that bravery looks like stepping out of the cycle of retaliation, not doubling down on it.

What the Church Should Have Said

If pastors and Christian leaders had been formed by the Sermon on the Mount, the first public words after the video surfaced would have been simple:

• “This is a tragedy. We grieve with the family.”

• “A badge does not change the image of God in a victim.”

• “Even if procedures were followed, that does not make it moral.”

• “We will not baptize state violence. We will not slander the dead.”

• “We call our people to peacemaking, not to performative outrage.”

Instead, many Christians ran interference for power. Some called the dead a terrorist. Some cherry-picked statutes. Some mocked the neighbors recording the scene. Some asked “Have you not learned?” like a playground bully, as if the point of government is to frighten the populace into submission. This language betrays a different savior. It teaches a different gospel. The cross is replaced by the sword, the pastor’s stole by the riot shield.

We can do better. We must do better. Not to score points against an agency, but to keep our own souls.

The Oldest Lie in Politics: “We’re the Good Guys”

Both major parties baptize violence when it suits their platform. The rhetoric changes. The victims change. The television graphics change. The machine does not. Larken testifies that he too once wore the stickers, cheered the raids, and trusted the system. Many of us did. Repentance looks like telling the truth about that past and refusing to repeat it. It looks like saying, out loud, “I was wrong,” then learning to see our neighbors again without the costume of ideology.

This is not cynicism. It is Christian realism. Jesus did not trust Himself to the crowds because He knew what was in man. He knew the appetite for power would twist even “good policy” into coercion. He knew fear could turn worshipers into executioners. He knew that the devil’s offer, “all the kingdoms of the world if you will bow,” still tempts believers today. That is why He called us to a narrow road.

Constitutions, Laws, and the Kingdom That Outlasts Them

Some listeners want the constitutional angle. Even there, the ground is shaky. The federal charter lists enumerated powers. It does not list a police power to regulate every person’s movement under threat of death. But the deeper Christian point is prior to all constitutions. Even if a law allowed an immoral act, it would not cease to be immoral.

The early Christians didn’t need a bill of rights to love enemies, rescue the vulnerable, and refuse idolatry. They needed a Lord. We have the same Lord. Our public discipleship should look like it.

The Kingdom Answer: Neighbor Love With Skin On

If our loyalty is to the crucified King, our answer is not primarily a hot take. Our answer is a way of life. It looks like walking toward those who are hurting. It looks like letting the doctor check a pulse instead of blocking him with the threat of pepper spray. It looks like telling truth over team loyalty. It looks like Christians becoming the people who can be trusted in a crisis because they are too busy serving to score points.

It also looks like refusing to dehumanize the agents who pulled the trigger. That does not mean excusing evil. It means telling the truth about the act while refusing to hate the actor. It means praying for justice and for their repentance. It means knowing that the same training that crushed a conscience on a street has also numbed consciences in our pews.

The way forward is not complicated, but it is costly: lay down the idolatry of political saviors and take up the cross. Pray for the courage to refuse wicked orders at every level of society. Become a people who would rather lose a platform than lose our soul.

Scripture Trail for the Church Today

• Matthew 5–7: Jesus’ constitution for the Kingdom. Peacemakers. Mercy. Enemy-love. No exceptions for uniforms.

• Romans 12 before Romans 13: Love without hypocrisy. Bless persecutors. Overcome evil with good. Read Chapter 13 in the light of Chapter 12.

• Psalm 146: Do not put your trust in princes. Their plans perish. God guards the sojourner.

• John 4; Luke 10: Jesus walks through Samaria; the neighbor is the one who shows mercy.

Let Scripture reform the reflexes shaped by talk radio and campaign seasons. Let your imagination be drenched in the Kingdom, not the headlines.

Listen & Reflect

🎧 Listen: Anywhere you find your podcasts
💬 Ask: When you see a badge, do you change your moral standard? What does that reveal about your discipleship?
📖 Read: Matthew 5–7; Romans 12–13; Psalm 146; Luke 10.
🤝 Practice: This week, serve a neighbor with no questions asked. No status check. No proof. Just love that acts.

Highlights & Takeaways

• A badge does not create a new morality. Jesus does not grant exceptions for uniforms.

• If you defend the first shot, you still must explain the others. You cannot. The second and third shots indict the soul of our authority-worship.

• Milgram wasn’t a myth. Training often beats conscience. Discipleship must train the conscience to fear God more than men.

• “Tactically unwise” is not a synonym for “deserved death.” Stop shifting the target.

• Romans 13 does not cancel the Sermon on the Mount. The cross judges empire, not the other way around.

• “No King but Christ” means one standard of love for everyone—from the poor to the powerful.

🤝Connect with Larken ROSE:

• The Jones Plantation Film

  • Platforms: Available on Apple TV, Amazon Prime, Tubi, Xmou Play, The Roku Channel, PLEX 

• The Rose Channel

• Book: The Most Dangerous Superstition 

• YouTube

• Candles in the Dark

• Facebook

Episode Timestamps:

(00:00) Framing the question: murder or self-defense? Larken returns for “Swearing Sunday.” 

• Christian allegiance vs. state power.

• Moral frame; allegiance check

• Matthew 5–7; Romans 12

• murder vs self-defense; authority; “No King but Christ”

• Previous Episodes with Larken Rose:

• EP #83 The Cult of Statism with Larken Rose

• EP #91 Breaking Down the Jones Plantation Film with Larken Rose

• EP #134 Larken Rose on Immigration and Christian Values: Challenging the Border Fetish Brigade

(00:41) Banter and burden: 

• The week’s exhaustion and why it still matters to speak.

• Choosing faithfulness over comfort; stewardship of voice

• Jeremiah 20:9

• lament; courage; speak

(01:26) Why people cheer evil: authority myths and plantation logic.

• Authority-worship; compliance culture

• How team colors override conscience

• Milgram Experiments (1963)

• obedience; idolatry; “plantation logic”

• Jones Plantation Movie

(03:40) When evil shows itself, some finally wake up.

• Shock as moral catalyst

• Ephesians 5:11

• exposure; repentance; awakening

(07:01) COVID parallels: neighbors revealed their true loyalties.

• Crisis reveals discipleship

• Romans 12 through Romans 13

• compliance; conscience; neighbor-love

(10:00) Badges and gangs: why morality cannot change with uniforms.

• Uniforms ≠ new morals

• Luke 10; early church witness

• badge; uniform; consistency – one standard for everyone.

(13:00) Craig’s Memphis test: you won’t stop to check a badge when guns are in your face.

• First agent opens the door; second moves in front of the car.

• Threat perception; staged risk

• Use-of-force: imminence

(14:17) “That was murder.” 

• Why shots two and three indict the shooter.

• No imminent threat; lethal overreach

• Matthew 5:21; proportionality

• second shot; third shot; homicide

(16:20) The physician they turned away; the shooter who fled.

• Aid refusal; post-incident flight

• Luke 10 (duty of care)

• physician; pulse check; left scene

(17:40) “Few bad apples?” Where are the good apples denouncing murder.

• Institutional silence; complicity

• Proverbs 31:8–9

• accountability; culture; complicity

(20:00) “Have you not learned?” Obedience by threat is not freedom.

• Intimidation ≠ authority

• Acts 5:29

• coercion; threat; tyranny

(21:15) Milgram: training vs. conscience and why people excuse murder.

• Training overrides conscience

• Milgram Experiments (1963) obedience study

• obedience; conditioning; conscience

(24:13) No other gods: when Christians side with Caesar over Christ.

• State-worship vs Kingdom allegiance

• Exodus 20:3; Matthew 6:24

• idolatry; Caesar; worship

• Laws/titles don’t alter morality

• Sermon on the Mount synthesis

• legalism; morality; authority claims

(33:34) “Was it murder?” clarified.

• No threat posture; face shot

• Self-defense: imminence/necessity

• face shot; no danger; overkill

(34:29) Watch his feet.

• No movement = manufactured “threat”

• Video-analysis heuristic

• feet; staging; false threat

(41:17) Tactics vs. morals: unwise choices don’t justify cages or bullets.

• Prudence ≠ moral guilt

• Romans 12:17–21

• tactics; morals; prudence

(47:17) Bootlicking theology called out.

• Excusing abuse = state worship

• Psalm 146

• princes; loyalty; idolatry

(55:55) Constitutional limits & ICE.

• Enumerated powers; no general police power

• Federalist 45 (Madison) summary

• constitution; federal power; jurisdiction

(1:06:56) Prosecution theater.

• Sacrificial pawn; delay and forget

• Prosecutorial discretion patterns

• show trial; delay; memory

(1:10:04) Signs of moral progress.

• Public conscience awakening

• Culture-shift indicators

• outrage; repentance; awareness

(1:12:37) Keep saying stuff

• Encouragement; close; credits

• Community action; sharing

• keep talking; outro; next steps

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