134. Larken Rose on Immigration and Christian Values: Challenging the Border Fetish Brigade

What happens when immigration policies clash with Christian values? Craig sits down with Larken Rose to dissect the complexities of immigration, focusing on the criticisms of past and current policies across administrations, what is novel about Trump’s border approach, and the inconsistencies in how some Christians approach these issues. The conversation challenges listeners to scrutinize their beliefs and the language surrounding immigration.

Key Topics:

1. Demonization of Immigrants Under Trump: Larken Rose highlights how Trump's administration has intensified the demonization of immigrants, creating a category of "undesirables." He draws parallels to historical tyrants who gained power by instilling fear of a common enemy. 

2. Libertarian Inconsistencies: The discussion shifts to Dave Smith, a libertarian figure who supports Trump's immigration policies. Larken criticizes libertarians who abandon their principles on immigration, pointing out the hypocrisy in supporting authoritarian measures while claiming to champion individual liberty.

3. Christian Perspectives on Immigration Laws: Christians’ support for harsh immigration policies and "Jesus would follow the law" are examined. Do such stances contradict Jesus' teachings?

4. Self-Reflection and Consistency: Larken concludes with a positive note on the power of self-reflection. He suggests that significant positive change could occur if well-intentioned people critically examined their beliefs for inconsistencies, rather than trying to change the minds of those with opposing views.

Notable Quotes:

"Obama and going back forever the immigration thuggery…it's not at all new. Trump didn't invent that. But what we're seeing a lot more of right now is the demonization of a whole category of people, those ‘illegals’." - Larken Rose

"One of the first things where it really dawned on me that maybe I was thinking about this differently is the fact that we're calling a person “illegal” because they crossed a border that was created by corrupt elitist." - Craig Harguess

Join Craig and Larken as they navigate these topics, and reflect on liberty, ownership, and the state control and power that can be seized amid public outrage. In the full episode, you’ll find a thought-provoking discussion that questions the status quo at the intersection of faith and immigration.

Connect with Larken:

• The Jones Plantation Film

  • Platforms: Available on Apple TV, Amazon Prime, Tubi, Xmou Play, The Roku Channel, PLEX 

• The Rose Channel

• Book: The Most Dangerous Superstition 

• YouTube

• Candles in the Dark

• Facebook

Episode Timestamps:

(0:22) Immigration and Morality

• Larken Rose returns as a guest to tackle this contentious issue.

(0:51) The Current Immigration Crisis

• Examination of the current immigration situation and its portrayal in the media.

• Comparison of deportation statistics across different U.S. administrations.

• Concerns were raised about the use of detention centers, likened to concentration camps.

• Where was Auschwitz 

(2:52) The "Undesirables" Narrative

• Larken discusses the historical demonization of immigrants as "undesirables."

• Comparison to tactics used by tyrannical regimes to gain power.

(5:57) Christian Perspectives on Immigration

• Christian community's response to immigration policies.

• Calls for a more compassionate, Christ-like approach to the issue.

(10:14) Trump and Authoritarian Rhetoric

• Discussion of Trump's rhetoric, with comparisons to historical authoritarian figures.

• The term "Mango Mussolini" is introduced as a humorous yet pointed critique.

(14:42) Humor as Resistance

• The role of humor in challenging authoritarianism and political figures.

• Balancing humor with the gravity of political issues.

(18:21) Biblical Insights on Authority

• Reflection on how early Christians and Jesus challenged state authority.

• Encouragement for Christians to consider these examples in modern contexts.

(21:07) Libertarian Views on Immigration

• Critique of libertarian inconsistencies regarding immigration.

• Discussion on fear-based versus principle-based decision-making.

(24:29) Fear as a Political Tool

• Analysis of how fear is used to manipulate public opinion on immigration.

• A call for courage and adherence to principles in the face of fear.

(29:23) Language and Labels

• Examination of the term "illegal immigrant" and its implications.

• A Christian perspective on the dehumanization inherent in such labels.

(38:46) Jesus and Legal Compliance

• Addressing claims that Jesus would adhere to immigration laws.

• Historical context of early Christianity's defiance of Roman law.

(54:45) The "Do You Lock Your Doors?" Argument

• Larken challenges common pro-border control arguments.

• Discussion of personal property rights versus national borders.

(59:59) The Mirror Project

• Introduction to Larken's project aimed at encouraging self-reflection and consistency in beliefs.

• Emphasis on examining personal values and beliefs.

(1:02:57) Closing Thoughts and Resources

• Information on Larken's work, including "The Jones Plantation" film.

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132. allegiance to God or Government? with Jason Porterfield

In a world where political divisions run deep and national identity often overshadows faith, how can Christians navigate the complex relationship between church and state? This episode of the Bad Roman Podcast featuring author of Fight Like Jesus: How Jesus Waged Peace Throughout Holy Week, Jason Porterfield, explores the complex relationship between Christianity and the state. 

As Christians, we know we're called to follow Jesus. Yet, many of us find ourselves caught in a web of conflicting loyalties. We pledge allegiance to flags, sing patriotic anthems, and even display national symbols in our places of worship. But is this what Jesus intended for His followers?

Jason challenges us to reconsider our assumptions about Christian citizenship and allegiance. His insights offer a fresh perspective on what it means to be a follower of Christ in a world that falsely demands our loyalty to earthly powers.

The Kingdom of God: More Than Just a Spiritual Concept

When Jesus spoke of the Kingdom of God, He wasn't merely describing a spiritual realm. He was making a bold, politically charged statement that challenged the very foundations of earthly power structures. Yet, many Christians today shy away from this revolutionary concept, preferring instead to speak of the "family of God" or other less confrontational terms.

Why do we do this? Perhaps it's because we've become too comfortable with the idea of dual citizenship – claiming allegiance to both God and country. But as Jason points out, this divided loyalty often leads to a watered-down faith where Jesus becomes Lord of less and less, while Caesar (or the state) claims lordship over everything else.

Consider this: What if we took Jesus' words about the Kingdom of God as seriously as the early Christians did? How might it change our relationship with the state and our understanding of our role in society?

Allegiance vs. Faith: Reclaiming the Power of Pistis

One of the most striking insights from this episode is the discussion around the Greek word "pistis." Often translated simply as "faith," this word carries a much deeper meaning of allegiance or loyalty. When the New Testament writers speak of giving one's pistis to Jesus, they're not just talking about believing in Him – they're calling for a complete transfer of allegiance from earthly powers to Christ.

This understanding challenges the modern Christian tendency to reduce faith to a personal, spiritual matter divorced from political and social realities. It calls us to reconsider what it truly means to declare Jesus as Lord and King.

Ask yourself: Have I reduced my faith in Jesus to mere belief, or am I willing to give Him my complete allegiance, even when it conflicts with the demands of the state?

Flags in the Sanctuary: A Symbol of Divided Loyalties

The presence of national flags in church sanctuaries is a relatively recent phenomenon, yet it's become so commonplace that many Christians don't think twice about it. However, as Jason reminds us, the early church would have found this practice deeply troubling.

Tertullian, an early Christian writer, declared that "the divine banner and the human banner do not go together, nor the standard of Christ and the standard of the devil." These words may sound harsh to modern ears, but they reflect a deep understanding of the exclusive nature of our allegiance to Christ.

Consider this: What message are we sending when we display national symbols alongside Christian ones in our places of worship? Are we inadvertently suggesting that our loyalty is divided between God and country?

Practical Implications: Living as Citizens of Heaven

So how do we live out this radical allegiance to Christ in practical terms? Jason offers several thought-provoking suggestions:

1. Rethink your language: Instead of speaking of Jesus as your personal Savior, try referring to Him as your Lord and King.

2. Reconsider your participation in national rituals: Jason shares how he stands silently during the Pledge of Allegiance, reciting the Lord's Prayer instead.

3. Engage in your community, but with a different perspective: Work for the welfare of your city or country, but do so as an ambassador of Christ's kingdom, not as a citizen of an earthly nation.

4. Be prepared for pushback: Standing firm in your allegiance to Christ may cost you relationships or opportunities, but remember that your citizenship is in heaven.

What We Learned About True Allegiance

This episode challenges us to examine our assumptions about faith, citizenship, and allegiance. It reminds us that following Jesus is not just about personal salvation – it's about pledging our loyalty to a different kingdom altogether.

As we navigate the complex landscape of modern politics and national identity, let's remember that our primary citizenship is in heaven. Our allegiance is to Christ alone, and from that foundation, we can engage with our earthly communities in ways that reflect His love, justice, and peace.

Are you ready to reclaim the revolutionary nature of your faith? Listen to the full episode for more insights on living as citizens of God's kingdom in a world that demands our allegiance. And don't forget to check out Jason Porterfield's book "Fight Like Jesus" for a deeper exploration of how Jesus modeled peacemaking and confronted injustice during Holy Week.

Let's commit to being "bad Romans" – Christians who are willing to challenge the status quo and live out our allegiance to Christ, no matter the cost.

Connect with Jason:

• Free ebook

• Website

• Twitter

• Facebook

• Instagram

Episode Timestamps:

(0:22) Episode Overview

• Discussion on phrases used to define the kingdom of God

• Examination of national flags in churches

• Guest Jason Porterfield returns to the show

(0:56) Jason Porterfield Returns to the Show

• Jason Porterfield on Past Bad Roman Episodes

• Waging Peace: Seeing God Before the Resurrection with Jason Porterfield, Episode 54

• Keith Giles & Jason Porterfield - Fight Like a Christian, Episode 14

• Updates on Jason's family and work

• Impact of recent political policies on Jason's life and ministry

(2:47) Current Political Climate

• Craig and Jason discuss the challenges of Christian engagement with politics

• Concerns about Christians celebrating divisive political actions

(4:26) Motivations Behind Jason's Recent Post

• Jason shares the context of a church service that inspired his post

• Reflection on J.D. Vance's comments about Christian priorities

(9:24) Church Diversity and Political Tensions

• Discussion on political diversity within Jason's church (Quaker Friends Church)

• Challenges of maintaining Christian unity amid political differences

(12:27) Analyzing Jason's Four-Point Post

• Point 1: Jesus spoke of the kingdom of God, but that's too political

• Exploration of reducing the meaning of Jesus' teachings

(18:03) The Power of Language in Christian Identity

• Importance of recognizing Jesus as King

• Implications of using "Christ" vs. "King" in reference to Jesus

(24:24) Early Church Perspectives on Allegiance

• Historical examples of early Christians prioritizing allegiance to Christ

• Tertullian's statements on allegiance to God vs. Caesar

(28:22) Jesus' Teachings on Taxes and Allegiance

• Justin Martyr

• Analysis of Jesus' response to paying taxes to Caesar

• Early church interpretations of Jesus' teachings on allegiance

(35:33) The Bruderhof Community's Resistance to Nazism

• Example of Christians maintaining allegiance to Christ during political pressure

• Bonhoeffer's influence on the Bruderhof's stance

(46:21) Flags in Churches and Pledges of Allegiance

• Jason's personal approach to pledges of Allegiance

• Discussion on the presence of national flags in church sanctuaries

(54:56) Jason's Resource: 100 Early Christian Quotes on Not Killing

• Origin and purpose of Jason's compilation of early Christian quotes

• Importance of understanding early church perspectives on violence

(57:51) Jason's Book: Fight Like Jesus

• Overview of the book's focus on Jesus' actions during Holy Week

• Encouragement to read the book during the Lenten season

(59:48) Conclusion and Additional Resources

• Invitation to explore Jason's website for more resources

• Importance of Christians considering their relationship to the state

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