No One Fit to Rule: Larken & Amanda Rose on Approaching Humanity (BONUS Episode)

Why do you stop at a red light, even when no one is watching?

Most people would say it's easy. It's just safe. It's just smart. But think about it a little longer. You didn't pick that rule. You didn't sit down and decide, all on your own, that this exact corner needed this exact rule. Someone else made that choice. And somewhere along the way, without even noticing, you agreed to follow it.

Now think about how many other rules work the same way.

We follow rules we never really looked at. We fear people we've never met, just because someone told us to. We say things like "the law" as if that phrase explains everything. But "the law" is really just a pile of choices other people made. We treat it like it's sacred, and most of the time we never stop to ask why.

Here's the strange part. A lot of us think that's just fine. We think someone has to be in charge. We think most people are too selfish or too foolish to make good choices on their own, so someone else needs to make the big decisions for us.

But where did that idea come from? Did you choose to believe it? Or did it get planted in you before you were even old enough to ask questions?

That question sits under this whole episode. It's not really about which political side is right. It's something much simpler, and much bigger: why do we keep believing that someone has to rule over us?

That question isn't just an idea in a book. It shows up in real moments, in real people's lives. 

This episode of The Bad Roman Podcast is a little different from most. Craig isn't talking with someone who slowly changed their mind about church and politics. He's talking with Larken Rose and Amanda Rose. They're two well-known voices in a small world of people who believe no human being should rule over another. They're getting ready for an event called Approaching Humanity in Sedona, Arizona. Larken isn't even a Christian. He says so right out loud, in his usual blunt way.

But what starts as a conversation about an upcoming event turns into something bigger. It becomes a dialogue on where our beliefs really come from, who put them there, and what it might feel like to finally notice.

What We Never Chose to Believe

Larken tells a story about a woman who once challenged him on speaking about a Bible verse. She asked if he was a Christian. He said no. She pushed back. If he's not a Christian, what gives him the right to talk about what the Bible means?

"I’m not," he said, "but I can read."

It's a funny line. But it's also a small earthquake. Hidden inside her question was an idea she probably never thought about: that only certain people, with the right badge or the right membership, are allowed to understand certain things. Larken didn't need a badge. He just needed the words in front of him and the will to actually look at them.

That idea runs through the whole episode. It's not about "here is the one correct answer." It's more like: what happens when we stop assuming we already know everything, and we actually take a real look?

Amanda tells a story that hits even harder. She wears a shirt to church. It shows Jesus being arrested by ICE agents. A few people compliment it without really thinking about what it means. But one woman can't move past it. She keeps a stiff smile and says, three separate times, that it concerns her. Amanda explains why she wears it: Jesus was from the Middle East. He didn't look like the people cheering on the raids. If he walked around today, some of the very people so sure he'd be on their side might be the ones putting him in handcuffs.

Nobody in that story changed their mind right away. That's not really the point. The point is the flinch. Something in that woman noticed a wall in her own mind, a wall between "people who get arrested" and "Jesus," that had never once been allowed to fall.

A lot of us are carrying walls just like that one. We just haven't seen our own shirt yet.

What Jesus Actually Refused

There's a story that people love to use to prove Jesus stayed out of politics, or even that he backed the people in charge. A group of religious leaders sends men to trap him. If Jesus says don't pay taxes to Rome, he's a troublemaker. If he says pay them, he looks like a friend of the soldiers crushing his own people.

Jesus asks for a coin. Whose face is stamped on it? Caesar's. So, Jesus says, give Caesar what belongs to Caesar. And give God what belongs to God.

Read fast, it sounds like Jesus is just being safe. Read slow, and it's not safe at all. Everyone listening that day knew something we've mostly forgotten: nothing really belonged to Caesar in the first place. His whole empire was built by taking things from other people. So when Jesus says "give God what's God's," he's not handing Caesar a slice of anything. He's quietly saying the whole pie was never Caesar's to begin with.

That's not a political policy. That's a trap turned right back on the people who set it. They walked away amazed, and they got nothing to use against him.

It still cost him everything. Not because he broke some rule. Because he refused to bow down to power just because power said he had to. Rome didn't kill Jesus because he stayed quiet about politics. It killed him because his kingdom worked by a totally different rulebook: mercy instead of control, serving instead of ruling, truth instead of the easy lie that some people are simply born to rule over others.

Earlier in his life, after Jesus fed a huge crowd with just a little food, the people tried to grab him and force him to be their king. He didn't take the deal. He didn't ask for smaller terms. He walked up a mountain by himself and let them figure out that this wasn't a game he was going to play.

Sit with that for a second. He was handed the chance to rule, a huge crowd, full stomachs, people ready to follow him anywhere, and he walked away.

You don't have to agree with everything Larken Rose believes to notice something. That same refusal sits under his main idea, too: that no human being has the right to rule another. Jesus didn't argue about which policy was best. He walked away from the mountain.

The Question Nobody Wants to Answer

Larken doesn't spend a lot of time telling people what to believe. His real project, the one behind his new book, Unbound, and behind the whole Approaching Humanity event, is smaller and stranger than that. He wants to know if people are actually living by the things they already say they believe.

"Are you being consistent with your own moral code?"

That's the whole challenge, in one line. Not "come believe what I believe." Just: does what you do match what you say is true?

Ask most people if it's wrong to steal from a neighbor, and they'll say of course it is. Ask if they've ever voted for a program that takes money from a neighbor who didn't want to give it, and something shifts. The answer gets longer. A "well" creeps in. A "we" creeps in too.

Amanda talks about running a class built around watching that shift happen, over and over. They'd bring people in, friends, family, even strangers paid fifty dollars for fifteen minutes of their time, and ask a few careful questions. Every single time, the same pattern showed up.

"They don't know what they don't know. It's an actual blind spot."

People don't dodge the question because they're lying. They dodge because part of them senses a hole in the floor and doesn't want to look down. It's scary to admit there's a whole area of your own beliefs you never really chose, and never really checked.

Larken has his own way of describing what happens when we skip that check, and just let someone else decide for us without ever noticing.

"They don't even recognize the chains wrapped around their own brains."

It would be easy to think this is only about politics. It isn't. It's really a spiritual question wearing political clothes. Every faith that takes the idea of repentance seriously is describing the same thing: waking up to a chain you didn't even know was there, and choosing, on purpose, to take it off. The Bad Roman Project has a phrase for this: "no king but Christ." Larken, starting from a totally different place, calls it noticing the blind spot. Different words. A strangely similar discovery.

Different Roads, Same Clearing

What makes Approaching Humanity interesting isn't that every speaker agrees. They don't. But they all ended up in almost the same place anyway.

There's David Hathaway, a real sheriff, someone most people would expect to defend "the system" without question. Instead, Craig says Hathaway ran for the job for one main reason: he didn't want a tyrant sitting in that office. He's not there to praise police work. He's watched what happens when power has no limits, and decided he'd rather stand in that door himself than let someone worse walk through it.

There's Patrick Smith, who took the opposite road from most guests on this show by leaving Christianity and becoming an atheist. From a completely different direction, he still landed on the same refusal to bow down to the state that Craig found from inside his own faith.

There's Brittany, a homeschooling mom and comedian. Her whole talk is built around one simple idea: kids are people. Not animals to be trained. Not lumps of clay to be shaped into perfect obedience. People, with their own growing sense of right and wrong, the very same thing every other speaker at this event is trying to protect in the grown-ups in the room.

There's Rebecca Anzini, who once watched someone build a so-called "freedom community" while quietly running it like a cult. She learned the hard way that the words "freedom" and "liberty" can be worn like a mask, hiding the exact same hunger for control they claim to fight against.

None of them needed the same books or the same prayers to see it. They just needed to pay close enough attention to their own lives for the chains to become visible. As Amanda puts it, nobody set out to end up somewhere so unfamiliar. They were just thinking things through, one honest step at a time, until one day they looked up and asked, "How did I get here?"

That's not really about ideas or politics. That's what a real change of heart looks like, in whatever words a person has to describe it.

Larken's hope for the event isn't that everyone leaves agreeing on doctrine or economics or theology.

"I want everybody to be themselves, unbound by weird manipulations and lies."

You don't have to agree with his conclusions to notice that this sounds a lot like what Jesus wanted too. Not a room full of people who all think and act exactly alike. People who are finally free enough to be exactly who they were made to be.

Approaching Humanity

The name of the event says it all. Approaching Humanity. Not approaching a new law. Not approaching a political party. Not approaching AI for president. Humanity, the thing we lose every time we hand our conscience over to someone else and let them decide who deserves kindness and who deserves suspicion.

Amanda and Larken joke through most of the episode. Salsa. Arizona heat. Hot peppers. There's even an old bit about a group of friends debating whether to use a powerful, dangerous ring "for good" instead of just destroying it. It's funny because it's so backwards, you don't gather people together to talk about breaking free from control, and then hand the ring right back to somebody at the end. But the joke has a real point behind it. So many movements built around freedom quietly end up rebuilding the very throne they said they wanted to tear down. Just give me the ring. I'll use it the right way. Put me in charge. I'll fix it this time.

Jesus was offered that same kind of deal. Once on a mountain, after he fed thousands of people with almost nothing. Once again out in the wilderness, before his work had even started. Both times, he said no. Not because power itself is evil, but because his kingdom was never going to be built that way. Mercy doesn't grow bigger by force. Truth doesn't need an army to protect it. Love for your neighbor falls apart the second you try to force someone else into it at gunpoint, no matter how good your reasons sound.

That's the humanity this event wants people to walk toward. Not a better system. Not a stronger fence around the "right" kind of freedom. Just people, finally taking an honest look at the chains they never chose to wear, willing to sit with how uncomfortable that is, instead of smiling through it the way that woman smiled through Amanda's shirt.

Craig doesn't need Larken to become a Christian for this conversation to matter. He needs him to keep asking the question neither of them can fully escape: is there really any person on this earth fit to rule over another? Jesus never answered that question with a new law or a new policy. He answered it by walking away from a crown. By washing the feet of the very men who would abandon him by morning. By dying rather than pretend that any earthly power, however much it borrowed religious words, deserved his loyalty more than the God he called Father.

"No king but Christ" was never meant to end an argument. It's an invitation to keep asking who you've really been listening to your whole life, and to notice, maybe for the first time, that you were always free to stop.

Guest Bio

Larken Rose has spent over two decades making the same simple, uncomfortable argument: no human being has the right to rule another. He's the author of The Most Dangerous Superstition, the novel The Iron Web, and creator/co-writer of The Jones Plantation (novel and film). His new book, Approaching Humanity, releases alongside the live event of the same name. He also created Candles in the Dark, a seminar that teaches people how to talk to friends and family about authority without turning it into a fight. Larken isn't a Christian — he says so plainly in this episode — but he and Craig keep landing in the same place anyway.

Amanda Rose is Larken's wife and partner in both life and work. A voluntaryist since 2012, she's a writer and public speaker who has appeared at Anarchapulco, Anarchovegas, and Anarchizona, and she co-hosts The Rose Channel alongside Larken.

Together, Larken and Amanda are hosting Approaching Humanity, a full-day event and book launch on Saturday, July 18, 2026, at the Sedona Performing Arts Center in Sedona, Arizona.

Links

• The Rose Channel: therosechannel.com

• Larken Rose's personal site: larkenrose.com

• Candles in the Dark seminar: attendcandles.com

• Larken on X: x.com/larken_rose

• Larken on YouTube: youtube.com/user/LarkenRose

• Approaching Humanity event tickets: therosechannel.com/humanity

• Approaching Humanity pre-order the book: therosechannel.com/humanitybook

Also Mentioned in This Episode (Approaching Humanity Speakers)

• Sheriff David Hathaway: Sheriff of Santa Cruz County, Arizona; previously featured on The Bad Roman Podcast, Episode 53, “Love at the Border with Sheriff David Hathaway”

• Jason Bassler: co-founder of The Free Thought Project and founder of Police the Police

• Patrick Smith: host of Disenthrall

• Mark Maresca: host of The White Pillbox

• Carey Wedler: voluntaryist content creator; former editor-in-chief of Anti-Media

• Derrick Broze:  journalist, author, and founder of The Conscious Resistance Network

• James Corbett: independent journalist, The Corbett Report, joining remotely from Japan

• Rebecca Anzini: speaker on the hidden dangers inside “freedom-minded” intentional communities

• Brittany: homeschooling mother, comedian, and past cast member of The Jones Plantation

Highlights & Takeaways

• We often follow beliefs we never really chose. 

• Most of us are shaped by rules, fears, and loyalties we picked up along the way, and we rarely stop to notice the difference.

• Being consistent shows what we actually believe. 

• Larken's big challenge isn't "believe what I believe." It's "does what you do match what you say you believe?"

• Jesus turned down power more than once. 

• Both on the mountain after feeding the crowd, and later before Pilate, Jesus refused to build his kingdom through force.

• "Give unto Caesar" is not a blank check for obedience. It's actually a trap turned back on the people who set it, built on the truth that nothing ever really belonged to Caesar at all.

• Different starting points can still lead to the same place. 

• A sheriff, an atheist, a homeschooling mom, and a Christian podcast host can all land on the same idea, that no one has the right to rule over another person, even coming from totally different directions.

• Discomfort is often a sign that something true is being noticed. 

• The people in this episode who flinched or froze or smiled too hard weren't bad people. They were standing at the edge of something they didn't know was there.

• Even freedom movements can rebuild the very thing they meant to tear down. 

• The temptation to say "just let me hold the power, I'll use it responsibly" shows up almost everywhere, even inside movements built to fight against it.

Listen

Listen for how many different words are used in this episode to describe the exact same discovery, "unbound," "the blind spot," "no king but Christ," and notice how closely they line up.

Reflect

Think of one belief you've never really chosen, something you just picked up along the way. What would it cost you to take an honest look at it?

Read

Read Matthew 22:15–22, John 6:14–15, and John 18:33–37. Notice what Jesus turns down in each story, and what he offers instead.

Practice

Try Larken's question on one belief you hold strongly: are you really being consistent with it? Or have you carved out a quiet little exception for the parts that are inconvenient?

Episode Timestamps

(00:00) Announcing Approaching Humanity

• Event details: Sedona, Arizona, July 18th

• Larken Rose returns to the show

• What this bonus episode is about

(02:02) Who Actually Shows Up

• Why the Rose Channel audience spans every belief system

• Labels versus consistency

• Craig on discovering The Most Dangerous Superstition

(05:27) Faith, Atheism, and Getting Shut Out

• Being sidelined by atheist anarchist circles for having faith

• Is any man fit to rule another?

• The question underneath every political argument

(09:24) The Core Challenge

• Are you consistent with your own moral code?

• Amanda's shirt: Jesus arrested by ICE

• A wall most people don't know they've built

(13:10) Renaming the Book

• Minds nobody knows are bound

• Why “Unbound” almost became the title

• What being unbound actually means

(15:30) Rereading “Give Unto Caesar”

• A trap sprung on the people who set it

• Two favorite memes: the cross, and “let the state do it”

• Render unto Caesar as admitting who you belong to

(18:52) The God Nobody Names

• “Government is the God they actually believe in”

• Worshipping Babylon without noticing

• The void: what people don't know they don't know

(23:06) Candles in the Dark

• The seminar built to change minds without arguing

• The $50 test for cognitive dissonance

• Craig's own uncomfortable awakening

(25:55) Why Approaching Humanity Brings Together So Many Beliefs

• Different starting points, same discovery

• Meet the speakers: Sheriff David Hathaway

• Jason Bassler of The Free Thought Project

(33:22) Meet More of the Speakers

• Brittany on homeschooling and “children are people”

• Pre-recorded talks from Carey Wedler and Derrick Broze

• Patrick Smith of Disenthrall

(36:30) Even More Speakers

• Mark Maresca and The White Pillbox

• Rebecca Anzini on a “freedom community” that hid a tyrant

• James Corbett joining remotely from Japan

(41:04) Why the Event Won't Hand the Ring Back

• “Give me the ring of power”

• The Boromir bit, freedom events that quietly rebuild the throne

• Building something all the way consistent

(48:45) Getting to Sedona

• Larken's last planned in-person event

• Tickets, the book, and the July 18th release

• Closing thoughts

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158. Conservative Politics vs. Bible Politics with Jordan Grant

There’s a moment a lot of us remember, even if we wish we didn’t.

A moment when politics stopped feeling like a hobby or a duty and started feeling like a religion. A time when we could repeat the talking points, defend the system, and call it wisdom. We were sure we were being faithful. Sure we were being responsible. Sure we were on the side of truth.

But what happens when the spell breaks?

In this episode, Craig sits down with Jordan Grant to talk about that slow, often painful unraveling. Jordan is a physician from Texas whose journey moved from conservative certainty and talk-radio formation to deep questions about authority, coercion, medicine, the church, and what it really means to follow Jesus. This isn’t a play-by-play of one man changing political labels. It’s the story of what happens when conviction gets more important than tribe, and when the words of Jesus become harder to ignore than the noise of government.

And maybe that’s the real question under this whole conversation: what if the issue isn’t that we got our politics slightly wrong? What if we trusted the wrong kind of power altogether?

When the Script Starts Writing You

Jordan’s story begins in a place many listeners will recognize. He grew up in Texas, in a Christian home, with politics more assumed than deeply examined. You’re a Christian, so of course you’re conservative. You vote Republican. You defend America. You support the system. That’s just what “our people” do.

Then 9/11 happened, and like it did for so many people, it hardened the script. Talk radio filled in the blanks. Fear gave authority a moral glow. What had once been background noise became formation. Jordan describes becoming a full-blown “cage-stage conservative,” devouring the arguments, the voices, the outrage, the confidence. Craig laughs about doing his own version of the same thing, falling asleep to Fox News and waking up angry at Democrats. Funny, until it isn’t.

That’s how propaganda often works. It doesn’t just tell us what to think. It teaches us what kind of person to become.

Reading the Bible Without the State’s Glasses

But Jordan’s shift didn’t begin with politics. It began with Scripture.

During the years between finance work and medical school, he started reading the Bible for himself. Not just hearing verses filtered through church culture, but sitting with the text and wrestling with it directly. That changed him. Not all at once. Not with a dramatic lightning bolt. But enough to make him harder to manage.

That matters. Because once a person starts reading the Bible without automatically assuming Caesar is the good guy, things get uncomfortable fast. The teachings of Jesus don’t fit neatly inside our favorite patriotic categories. Enemy-love does not help campaign strategy. “Not so among you” doesn’t sound much like winning elections.

And Jordan makes that tension plain later in the episode: “It doesn’t get any clearer than that” when Jesus says His followers are not to lord power over others the way Gentile rulers do (1:04:48).

Medical School and the Myth of the Expert

A big turning point came in medical school.

Jordan says it was there that he started seeing the deeper authoritarian instincts behind modern systems. Not just in government, but in medicine too. He saw dogmatism. He saw hubris. He saw how easily people in respected institutions can begin to treat ordinary people like problems to manage rather than neighbors to love.

That part of the conversation lands hard because it isn’t really just about doctors. It’s about power. It’s about what happens when people begin to believe that expertise makes coercion righteous. Jordan says he saw firsthand the kind of mindset that quietly says, we know best, so trust us and obey.

That same mindset didn’t stay in the hospital. It spilled into the church, the culture, and the COVID years. And when churches echoed the government instead of standing against tyranny, both Jordan and Craig felt the betrayal.

Craig puts it bluntly: the church should have been the first to say, “I don’t think we will” when power tried shutting everything down. Jordan agrees: Christians pushing these kinds of tyrannies and blindly trusting “the expert” had to be called out (26:43).

The Cracks in Conservative Certainty

One of the most human parts of this episode is how familiar the old world still feels.

Jordan remembers the talk-radio years. Craig remembers the Fox years. Both of them know what it’s like to think Sean Hannity sounds profound. That’s why the conversation never turns smug. There’s no chest-thumping here, no “look how enlightened we are now.” There’s just recognition. We know how easy it is to get swept up, because we were.

And still, there’s hope.

Craig says he has more faith in younger people now, because at least many of them are asking questions. Jordan agrees that he sees a trend: people are beginning to question authority more than they used to. Not everyone. Not at the same speed. But enough to notice.

That matters, because every awakening starts with one forbidden question.

Can I Do This to My Neighbor?

Late in the episode, Jordan gives what may be the clearest summary of the whole conversation.

For people still on the fence, he says to start with principles, not pragmatism. Use this as the filter: Can I do this to my neighbor or not? If it would be evil for you to do it personally, why does it become righteous when the state does it with a flag and a larger budget?

Jordan describes using this line of thought in medical school and in everyday conversations. If he came to your house with a gun and demanded 30% of your income “for good things,” you wouldn’t call that moral. So why do we accept it when a system does it? His point is not that every hard question becomes instantly simple. His point is that principles matter more than outcomes we happen to prefer.

Or as he says, “principles trump pragmatism” (1:05:48).

That’s a deeply Christian idea, even if modern Christians often forget it.

Questioning Pastors, Churches, and the Things We Were Told Never to Touch

Jordan ends with one more challenge, and it’s a brave one.

He says Christians should be thinkers. Good thinkers. Solid thinkers. And that means it’s okay to question your pastor. It’s okay to leave a church if it’s pushing evil things. That won’t sound radical to everyone, but for people raised to equate church loyalty with obedience to God, it can feel like breaking a family curse.

Jordan isn’t encouraging rebellion for rebellion’s sake. He’s calling for conviction. If a church is teaching things that are antithetical to Christ, we do not owe it our silence.

Christian nationalism survives on borrowed trust. It counts on us being too scared to ask whether the people leading us actually sound like Jesus.

Sometimes faithfulness begins with a very simple act: refusing to pretend.

A Different Kind of Wake-Up

This conversation isn’t about becoming libertarian, anarchist, or anti-establishment as an identity. It’s about becoming honest.

Honest enough to admit that many of us once mistook certainty for wisdom.
Honest enough to admit that “Christian politics” often discipled us more than Jesus did.
Honest enough to ask whether the church has been waving the wrong banners for a very long time.

Jordan’s story reminds us that shifts like this rarely happen in a straight line. They come through reading, questioning, noticing, grieving, and slowly learning how to see our neighbor again.

Because maybe leaving the political script behind isn’t losing faith at all.

Maybe it’s the first time we’re actually starting to trust Jesus.

Highlights & Takeaways

• Many of us did not reason our way into statism; we were formed into it by fear, habit, media, and church culture.

• Reading Scripture for ourselves can expose how often we’ve filtered Jesus through patriotic assumptions.

• Authoritarianism does not only show up in government. It can appear in medicine, church life, and any system that treats people as manageable objects.

• COVID revealed how quickly many churches sided with power rather than with courage, mercy, and truth.

• Younger people asking hard questions may be one of the more hopeful signs in this cultural moment.

• “Can I do this to my neighbor?” is a powerful moral test for politics, voting, taxation, and coercion.

• Principles must matter more than pragmatism if we want to follow Jesus consistently.

• Christians should be thinkers, and that includes questioning pastors, churches, and traditions that defend what Christ would never command.

Listen

Listen for the way Jordan describes his shift not as a trendy political reinvention, but as a long collision between principle, Scripture, and lived experience.

Reflect

Where have we accepted coercion from the state that we would condemn in our own personal lives?

Read

Read Matthew 20:25–28 and ask whether our political instincts actually fit Jesus’ words: “Not so among you.”

Practice

Pick one belief you have about politics, voting, or authority and run it through this question all week: Can I do this to my neighbor in good conscience?

Episode Timestamps:

(0:00) Jordan Grant joins the show

• Craig introduces Jordan

• paradigm shift in faith and politics

• social media connection becomes podcast conversation

(4:35) Jordan’s background: Texas, finance, medicine, and faith

• small-town Texas upbringing

• finance degree, hated the cubicle life

• pre-med years become spiritual turning point

(8:38) 9/11, Bush-era politics, and the conservative script

• Christian = conservative assumption

• post-9/11 political awakening

• Republican identity without much examination

(10:46) Talk radio formation and becoming a “cage-stage conservative”

• devouring radio and pundit logic

• Sean Hannity talking points

• outrage as discipleship

(13:25) Younger people, military disillusionment, and questioning authority

• Craig’s hope in the younger generation

• refusing to die for empire

• asking questions older generations often avoid

(17:53) Medicine, the state, and forced trust

• medicine/state crossover

• losing trust in institutional authority

• coercion as a warning sign

(18:28) Medical school and the authoritarian mindset

• dogmatism in professional culture

• private contempt for “normies”

• expert culture and hubris

(19:30) Authoritarian systems inside modern medicine

• Rockefeller-era legacy

• approved knowledge vs. “quack” labels

• power holders deciding how people must live

(26:43) COVID, church shutdowns, and Christian compliance

• church entanglement with the state

• outrage at Christian silence

• ICE, experts, and pushing tyranny

(28:37) Reformed theology, Romans 13, and civil magistrate thinking

• Bible reading gets serious

• attraction to “intellectual” theology

• proof-texting for power

(40:14) Ron Paul, conviction, and the church’s blind spots

• justice, mercy, widow, orphan

• Christians booing what should convict them

• voting as legitimizing tyranny

(57:47) Wrestling with Scripture, certainty, and honest questions

• questioning inherited assumptions

• Jesus’ words as the clearest anchor

• letting hard questions stay hard

(1:04:48) “Not so among you”

• Jesus rejects lordship politics

• Matthew 20 as political confrontation

• the Kingdom not built on domination

(1:05:48) Practical advice for fence-sitters

• principles over pragmatism

• “Can I do this to my neighbor?”

• moral consistency as the filter

(1:08:20) Christians should be thinkers

• question your pastor

• leave churches pushing evil

• conviction over belonging

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154. Kingdom Politics vs. Chaos: Can a Voluntary Society Reflect Jesus?

“What if the problem isn’t that we haven’t found the right rulers, but that we keep assuming someone needs to rule us at all?”

There’s a moment that shows up in almost every conversation about politics and faith. It usually comes right after someone says, “Okay, but what about bad people?” The room tightens. The air shifts. Because underneath the question isn’t policy, it’s fear. Fear of chaos. Fear of losing control. Fear that without someone in charge, everything falls apart.

This episode lives inside that moment.

Craig sits down with economist and author Bob Murphy to talk about Bob’s short book, Chaos Theory. On the surface, it’s about how law, courts, and public safety might work without a centralized state. But that’s not really why Craig wanted the conversation. What he’s really asking is something Christians rarely slow down long enough to face: Why are we so sure that force is necessary for order, and what does that say about what we believe Jesus actually taught?

Bob doesn’t come in trying to convince anyone. He comes in careful. Thoughtful. Almost pastoral. He knows the ideas he’s talking about can trigger alarm bells. So instead of starting with labels or slogans, he starts with a question that keeps circling back throughout the episode: Should anyone be allowed to do things that would be wrong for everyone else?

Craig Meets Bob Murphy

Craig opens with honesty. He’s familiar with these ideas. He’s heard them before. But he also knows where people get stuck. It’s not usually in theory. It’s in the details.

“How does this actually work?” Craig asks. “Not in a perfect world, but in this one.”

Bob nods. He doesn’t promise a world without sin or harm. “The goal isn’t utopia,” he says. “The goal is removing what I call an institutionalized aggressor.”

That phrase lands heavy.

Bob explains that every system has problems because people have problems. The difference is whether the system itself assumes that violence and threats are necessary tools. A voluntary society, he says, doesn’t eliminate wrongdoing. It eliminates the idea that some people are allowed to do wrong by design.

Craig pauses there, not because he disagrees, but because he recognizes how deeply that assumption runs. For Christians, this isn’t an abstract argument. It cuts straight into how we’ve learned to think about safety, authority, and obedience.

Why Bob Steps Around the Word “Anarchy”

Early in the conversation, Bob explains why he rarely leads with the word “anarchist,” especially among Christians. The word comes loaded. Too many images. Too many misunderstandings.

“I actually believe in order,” Bob says. “I just don’t think order requires rulers.”

Instead, he uses the phrase voluntary society. It sounds less dramatic, but it’s more accurate. A voluntary society isn’t about tearing everything down. It’s about cooperation without coercion. Rules without rulers. Agreement without threats.

Craig connects this to Christian nationalism almost instinctively. When Christians say “Jesus is King,” do we really believe it? Or do we still assume someone else needs to enforce things for Him? Jesus refused power when it was offered. He didn’t seize control. He invited people to follow.

That contrast lingers.

A Boring Word That Changes Everything

Midway through the episode, Craig opens Bob’s book and lands on a section that doesn’t sound very spiritual at all: contracts.

It almost feels like a letdown at first. No revolution. No big speeches. Just agreements.

But Bob leans in. Contracts, he explains, are how most of our lives already work. Jobs. Housing. Insurance. Services. We trust them not because someone is holding a gun, but because incentives, reputation, and accountability matter.

“Insurance companies don’t want to write million-dollar checks,” Bob says. “So they care about safety. They ask questions. They check training. They look at track records.”

Craig pushes back with the concern many listeners will feel. What about the vulnerable? What about people without power or money?

Bob doesn’t pretend this system fixes everything. He simply points out that our current system already fails the vulnerable, often while claiming moral authority. A voluntary system doesn’t solve sin. It just stops pretending that force is love.

Consent, Compliance, and the Ballot Box

One of the most uncomfortable turns in the conversation comes when Bob challenges the idea that voting equals consent.

“In normal life,” Bob says, “consent means you can say no. You can walk away.”

You can’t really do that with the state.

Markets depend on persuasion. Governments depend on compliance. Craig lets that contrast sit without rushing to resolve it. Because Jesus never appealed to majorities. He appealed to hearts. To repentance. To truth.

“If we wouldn’t do this to our neighbor,” Craig reflects, “why are we okay with a system that does?”

That question doesn’t get answered. And that’s the point.

Live the Question Jesus Calls us To Ask

This episode doesn’t give you a platform to stand on. It gives you a question to carry. And following Jesus has always meant carrying questions that cost us something.

If this conversation unsettled you, sit with that. Keep asking what it really means to follow a crucified King.

🤝 Connect with Bob Murphy 🤝

• Read the Book: Chaos Theory (buy on Amazon), Chaos Theory (pdf)

• Bob’s other books: Contra Krugman: Smashing the Errors of America’s Most Famous Keynesian; Lessons for the Young Economist; Choice: Cooperation, Enterprise, and Human Action

• Bob’s Podcasts: Human Action Podcast and The Bob Murphy Show

• X (Twitter): @BobMurphyEcon

• Bob’s YouTube Channel:@BobMurphyAncap

Highlights & Takeaways

• A voluntary society doesn’t promise a perfect world

• It refuses to give moral exemptions to people in power

• Order and control are not the same thing

• Consent requires the real option to walk away

• Jesus never modeled threat-based transformation

• Christian nationalism trusts force where Jesus trusted faithfulness

• You don’t need a political plan to name a moral problem

Listen & Reflect

Listen: Pay attention to where fear enters the conversation. What are we afraid would happen if control loosened?

Reflect: Where have we accepted systems that do things we would never justify in our own lives?

Read: Read Matthew 5–7 slowly. Notice which teachings feel “impractical,”and ask why.

Practice: This week, choose persuasion over pressure in one real situation. Let go of leverage and see what remains.

Episode Timestamps:

(00:00) Voluntary Society: “Wouldn’t That Be Chaos?”

• bad actors, security, fear of “chaos”

• why Bob Murphy + Chaos Theory today

• frame: Christ over the state

(00:45) Welcome Bob Murphy

• Craig’s intro + how they got connected (Dominic)

• Episodes with Dominic

• Judas the OG Christian Nationalist: Why Imposters Are Worse Than Opponents with Domenic Scarcella EP #147

• Christianity Unpacked in "Good Neighbor, Bad Citizen" with Domenic Scarcella EP #97

(06:19) Why Bob Avoids the “Anarchist” Label

• two kinds of “anarchists”

• “I have a king… not an earthly king”

• prefers “voluntary society” language

(07:19) Sermon on the Mount + Politics That Fit Jesus

• “dovetail… best with what Jesus told Christians”

• Craig’s shift from “looking for somebody to vote for”

• discipleship vs ideology

(10:57) “I Don’t Have to Have a Plan”

• refusing the election-pressure test

• “this current system… is crazy”

• Craig: “yeah, you’re allowed”

(11:33) Salsa Break: No King but Christ

• put the politics down

• support the show

• “no king but Christ” hook

(12:14) Chaos Theory: Contracts

• why contracts matter in a voluntary society

• how contracts already matter

(14:37) “Institutionalized Aggressor” + Imposed Rules

• no “my guy loses → stuff imposed on me”

• what the booklet is trying to show

• contracts “on the front end”

(33:14) Insurance as Due Diligence

• “standard package” idea

• insurance companies = background checks

• malpractice example bridge

(34:03) Incentives: Background Checks + Risk

• “we might have to pay $2 million”

• vetting training, history, reputation

• why incentives shape behavior

(46:57) “Give the Experts Guns” Problem

• “very naive” assumption

• experts can be the bad guys

• quick support spotfund message + Memphis charities

(58:27) “Aren’t Insurance Companies the Government?”

• “they seem like they play an important part”

• Bob: not government because it’s voluntary

• competition + no power to block new entrants

(1:03:24) Where to Find Bob + What He’s Building

• how to get Chaos Theory (PDF or physical)

• Human Action Podcast + other work

(1:04:22) Wrap-Up + Possible Part 2

• “small book… packed tight”

• Bob open to coming back

• Craig: “we didn’t get to cover everything”

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124. Humor, Healing, & Finding Purpose with Jeff Macolino

About this Episode

Have you ever felt like you're the worst person in the world? That everyone else has it together while you're just fumbling through life? If so, you're not alone. In this eye-opening episode of the Bad Roman Podcast, host Craig Hargis sat down with comedian and fellow podcaster Jeff Macalino to explore the surprising power of self-deprecating humor and its potential to transform lives.

The Unexpected Therapy Session

What started as a casual conversation about politics and faith quickly evolved into an impromptu therapy session that left both Craig and Jeff laughing and reflecting on the nature of self-worth. Jeff's raw honesty about his struggles with self-hatred struck a chord, revealing a universal human experience that many grapple with silently.

> "I hate myself more than anybody else in the world. Meaning I think I'm a horrible person. I'm terrible. I'm an abomination. I hate everything about me." - Jeff Macalino

At first glance, this level of self-loathing might seem alarming. But as the conversation unfolded, it became clear that Jeff's ability to confront and express these feelings openly was actually a source of strength and connection.

The Healing Power of Laughter

One of the most striking insights from their chat was Jeff's unique approach to dealing with embarrassment and personal shortcomings. Instead of hiding his mistakes or awkward moments, he chooses to share them openly, often turning them into hilarious anecdotes that bring joy to others.

Consider this: When was the last time you turned a mortifying experience into a source of laughter for yourself and others?

Jeff's philosophy is simple yet profound:

1. Experience something embarrassing or negative

2. Share it openly, often with humorous exaggeration

3. Make others laugh, turning negative energy into positive

This approach doesn't just provide momentary relief; it has the potential to reshape one's relationship with their own imperfections. By laughing at themselves, individuals can:

• Reduce the power of shame and self-criticism

• Create connections through shared human experiences

• Find value in mistakes and awkward moments

Reframing Self-Hatred: A Christian Perspective

As a Christian, Craig found himself reflecting on how Jeff's struggles align with the teachings of Jesus. It's easy to forget that Christ doesn't reject anyone, no matter how harshly they judge themselves. This realization led to a powerful moment in their conversation:

> "If Jesus doesn't reject you and you have these Christian tendencies, you have these Christian leanings... he doesn't reject you. You shouldn't reject yourself either."

This perspective offers a profound counterpoint to self-hatred. It challenges individuals to view themselves through a lens of grace and acceptance, mirroring the unconditional love that is central to Christian faith.

Practical Steps for Self-Acceptance

While the conversation was filled with laughter, it also yielded some practical advice for those struggling with self-worth:

1. Start with the basics: Craig recommended Jeff (and now you) to read the Sermon on the Mount daily. This foundational teaching of Jesus can provide a new perspective on self-worth and relationships with others.

2. Embrace vulnerability: Share embarrassing moments or mistakes. You might be surprised at how many people relate and find comfort in openness.

3. Look for the humor: Try to find the funny side of awkward experiences. This doesn't trivialize them but can help reduce their emotional impact.

4. Remember your impact: Jeff's comedy brings joy to countless people. Similarly, reflect on the positive impact you have on others, even in small ways.

5. Practice self-compassion: Treat yourself with the same kindness and understanding you'd offer a good friend.

What We Learned About Self-Worth and Joy

This episode reminded Craig of the transformative power of honest conversation and shared laughter. Jeff's openness about his struggles with self-hatred, coupled with his ability to find humor in life's awkward moments, offers a unique pathway to self-acceptance and joy.

As they wrapped up their chat, Craig found himself deeply grateful for the unexpected direction the conversation had taken. It served as a powerful reminder that sometimes, the most profound insights come from the most unplanned moments.

Whether you're grappling with self-doubt, seeking ways to find more joy in your life, or simply in need of a good laugh, listening to the full episode might just change the way you view yourself and the world around you.

Remember, in a world that often feels divided, shared experiences of awkwardness, self-doubt, and the ability to laugh at oneself can be a powerful unifying force. So the next time you find yourself cringing at a personal faux pas, consider sharing it with a friend. You might just turn that moment of embarrassment into a catalyst for connection and joy.

Connect with Jeff Macolino:

• Instagram, X, Facebook, YouTube

• Jeff Macolino Podcast: Spotify, Apple Podcast

• Acting work on IMDB

Episode Timestamps:

Timestamps:

0:22 Guest Introduction: Jeff Macalino

• Craig on Jeff’s podcast " target="_blank">Episode 174

0:44 Opening Banter and Sports Talk

• Craig’s evolving relationship with the Dallas Cowboys

• Jeff recounts his experience as a New Orleans Saints fan

• younger fans focus more on individual athletes than teams

• parallels between sports fandom and political allegiances

7:51 Jeff's Background and Podcast

• Jeff Macalino Podcast

• Jeff's Acting Career

• "Haunted Happy Hour" on Prime

• "The Last Ride" where Jeff serves as executive producer and lead actor

11:44 Exploration of Past Life Regression

• Jeff shares his experience with past life regression facilitated by a friend

• Describes the process as therapeutic regardless of belief in reincarnation

18:30 Spirituality and Christianity

• Jeff reflects on his Catholic upbringing and current spiritual journey

• Discusses openness to various spiritual experiences and the complexities of political involvement

21:03 Political Engagement and Voting

• Jeff shares his conflicted feelings about voting particularly regarding marijuana legalization in Florida

• moral dilemmas and compromises involved in political participation

25:57 Christian Anarchist Perspective

• Craig explains his view on disengagement from politics emphasizing following Jesus over political involvement

• challenges of maintaining this perspective in a politically charged environment

29:24 Self-Perception and Humor

• Jeff talks about his tendency towards self-deprecation and using humor to cope with negative experiences

• Craig encourages Jeff to recognize his positive impact through humor and entertainment

47:45 Closing Thoughts 

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