158. Conservative Politics vs. Bible Politics with Jordan Grant

There’s a moment a lot of us remember, even if we wish we didn’t.

A moment when politics stopped feeling like a hobby or a duty and started feeling like a religion. A time when we could repeat the talking points, defend the system, and call it wisdom. We were sure we were being faithful. Sure we were being responsible. Sure we were on the side of truth.

But what happens when the spell breaks?

In this episode, Craig sits down with Jordan Grant to talk about that slow, often painful unraveling. Jordan is a physician from Texas whose journey moved from conservative certainty and talk-radio formation to deep questions about authority, coercion, medicine, the church, and what it really means to follow Jesus. This isn’t a play-by-play of one man changing political labels. It’s the story of what happens when conviction gets more important than tribe, and when the words of Jesus become harder to ignore than the noise of government.

And maybe that’s the real question under this whole conversation: what if the issue isn’t that we got our politics slightly wrong? What if we trusted the wrong kind of power altogether?

When the Script Starts Writing You

Jordan’s story begins in a place many listeners will recognize. He grew up in Texas, in a Christian home, with politics more assumed than deeply examined. You’re a Christian, so of course you’re conservative. You vote Republican. You defend America. You support the system. That’s just what “our people” do.

Then 9/11 happened, and like it did for so many people, it hardened the script. Talk radio filled in the blanks. Fear gave authority a moral glow. What had once been background noise became formation. Jordan describes becoming a full-blown “cage-stage conservative,” devouring the arguments, the voices, the outrage, the confidence. Craig laughs about doing his own version of the same thing, falling asleep to Fox News and waking up angry at Democrats. Funny, until it isn’t.

That’s how propaganda often works. It doesn’t just tell us what to think. It teaches us what kind of person to become.

Reading the Bible Without the State’s Glasses

But Jordan’s shift didn’t begin with politics. It began with Scripture.

During the years between finance work and medical school, he started reading the Bible for himself. Not just hearing verses filtered through church culture, but sitting with the text and wrestling with it directly. That changed him. Not all at once. Not with a dramatic lightning bolt. But enough to make him harder to manage.

That matters. Because once a person starts reading the Bible without automatically assuming Caesar is the good guy, things get uncomfortable fast. The teachings of Jesus don’t fit neatly inside our favorite patriotic categories. Enemy-love does not help campaign strategy. “Not so among you” doesn’t sound much like winning elections.

And Jordan makes that tension plain later in the episode: “It doesn’t get any clearer than that” when Jesus says His followers are not to lord power over others the way Gentile rulers do (1:04:48).

Medical School and the Myth of the Expert

A big turning point came in medical school.

Jordan says it was there that he started seeing the deeper authoritarian instincts behind modern systems. Not just in government, but in medicine too. He saw dogmatism. He saw hubris. He saw how easily people in respected institutions can begin to treat ordinary people like problems to manage rather than neighbors to love.

That part of the conversation lands hard because it isn’t really just about doctors. It’s about power. It’s about what happens when people begin to believe that expertise makes coercion righteous. Jordan says he saw firsthand the kind of mindset that quietly says, we know best, so trust us and obey.

That same mindset didn’t stay in the hospital. It spilled into the church, the culture, and the COVID years. And when churches echoed the government instead of standing against tyranny, both Jordan and Craig felt the betrayal.

Craig puts it bluntly: the church should have been the first to say, “I don’t think we will” when power tried shutting everything down. Jordan agrees: Christians pushing these kinds of tyrannies and blindly trusting “the expert” had to be called out (26:43).

The Cracks in Conservative Certainty

One of the most human parts of this episode is how familiar the old world still feels.

Jordan remembers the talk-radio years. Craig remembers the Fox years. Both of them know what it’s like to think Sean Hannity sounds profound. That’s why the conversation never turns smug. There’s no chest-thumping here, no “look how enlightened we are now.” There’s just recognition. We know how easy it is to get swept up, because we were.

And still, there’s hope.

Craig says he has more faith in younger people now, because at least many of them are asking questions. Jordan agrees that he sees a trend: people are beginning to question authority more than they used to. Not everyone. Not at the same speed. But enough to notice.

That matters, because every awakening starts with one forbidden question.

Can I Do This to My Neighbor?

Late in the episode, Jordan gives what may be the clearest summary of the whole conversation.

For people still on the fence, he says to start with principles, not pragmatism. Use this as the filter: Can I do this to my neighbor or not? If it would be evil for you to do it personally, why does it become righteous when the state does it with a flag and a larger budget?

Jordan describes using this line of thought in medical school and in everyday conversations. If he came to your house with a gun and demanded 30% of your income “for good things,” you wouldn’t call that moral. So why do we accept it when a system does it? His point is not that every hard question becomes instantly simple. His point is that principles matter more than outcomes we happen to prefer.

Or as he says, “principles trump pragmatism” (1:05:48).

That’s a deeply Christian idea, even if modern Christians often forget it.

Questioning Pastors, Churches, and the Things We Were Told Never to Touch

Jordan ends with one more challenge, and it’s a brave one.

He says Christians should be thinkers. Good thinkers. Solid thinkers. And that means it’s okay to question your pastor. It’s okay to leave a church if it’s pushing evil things. That won’t sound radical to everyone, but for people raised to equate church loyalty with obedience to God, it can feel like breaking a family curse.

Jordan isn’t encouraging rebellion for rebellion’s sake. He’s calling for conviction. If a church is teaching things that are antithetical to Christ, we do not owe it our silence.

Christian nationalism survives on borrowed trust. It counts on us being too scared to ask whether the people leading us actually sound like Jesus.

Sometimes faithfulness begins with a very simple act: refusing to pretend.

A Different Kind of Wake-Up

This conversation isn’t about becoming libertarian, anarchist, or anti-establishment as an identity. It’s about becoming honest.

Honest enough to admit that many of us once mistook certainty for wisdom.
Honest enough to admit that “Christian politics” often discipled us more than Jesus did.
Honest enough to ask whether the church has been waving the wrong banners for a very long time.

Jordan’s story reminds us that shifts like this rarely happen in a straight line. They come through reading, questioning, noticing, grieving, and slowly learning how to see our neighbor again.

Because maybe leaving the political script behind isn’t losing faith at all.

Maybe it’s the first time we’re actually starting to trust Jesus.

Highlights & Takeaways

• Many of us did not reason our way into statism; we were formed into it by fear, habit, media, and church culture.

• Reading Scripture for ourselves can expose how often we’ve filtered Jesus through patriotic assumptions.

• Authoritarianism does not only show up in government. It can appear in medicine, church life, and any system that treats people as manageable objects.

• COVID revealed how quickly many churches sided with power rather than with courage, mercy, and truth.

• Younger people asking hard questions may be one of the more hopeful signs in this cultural moment.

• “Can I do this to my neighbor?” is a powerful moral test for politics, voting, taxation, and coercion.

• Principles must matter more than pragmatism if we want to follow Jesus consistently.

• Christians should be thinkers, and that includes questioning pastors, churches, and traditions that defend what Christ would never command.

Listen

Listen for the way Jordan describes his shift not as a trendy political reinvention, but as a long collision between principle, Scripture, and lived experience.

Reflect

Where have we accepted coercion from the state that we would condemn in our own personal lives?

Read

Read Matthew 20:25–28 and ask whether our political instincts actually fit Jesus’ words: “Not so among you.”

Practice

Pick one belief you have about politics, voting, or authority and run it through this question all week: Can I do this to my neighbor in good conscience?

Episode Timestamps:

(0:00) Jordan Grant joins the show

• Craig introduces Jordan

• paradigm shift in faith and politics

• social media connection becomes podcast conversation

(4:35) Jordan’s background: Texas, finance, medicine, and faith

• small-town Texas upbringing

• finance degree, hated the cubicle life

• pre-med years become spiritual turning point

(8:38) 9/11, Bush-era politics, and the conservative script

• Christian = conservative assumption

• post-9/11 political awakening

• Republican identity without much examination

(10:46) Talk radio formation and becoming a “cage-stage conservative”

• devouring radio and pundit logic

• Sean Hannity talking points

• outrage as discipleship

(13:25) Younger people, military disillusionment, and questioning authority

• Craig’s hope in the younger generation

• refusing to die for empire

• asking questions older generations often avoid

(17:53) Medicine, the state, and forced trust

• medicine/state crossover

• losing trust in institutional authority

• coercion as a warning sign

(18:28) Medical school and the authoritarian mindset

• dogmatism in professional culture

• private contempt for “normies”

• expert culture and hubris

(19:30) Authoritarian systems inside modern medicine

• Rockefeller-era legacy

• approved knowledge vs. “quack” labels

• power holders deciding how people must live

(26:43) COVID, church shutdowns, and Christian compliance

• church entanglement with the state

• outrage at Christian silence

• ICE, experts, and pushing tyranny

(28:37) Reformed theology, Romans 13, and civil magistrate thinking

• Bible reading gets serious

• attraction to “intellectual” theology

• proof-texting for power

(40:14) Ron Paul, conviction, and the church’s blind spots

• justice, mercy, widow, orphan

• Christians booing what should convict them

• voting as legitimizing tyranny

(57:47) Wrestling with Scripture, certainty, and honest questions

• questioning inherited assumptions

• Jesus’ words as the clearest anchor

• letting hard questions stay hard

(1:04:48) “Not so among you”

• Jesus rejects lordship politics

• Matthew 20 as political confrontation

• the Kingdom not built on domination

(1:05:48) Practical advice for fence-sitters

• principles over pragmatism

• “Can I do this to my neighbor?”

• moral consistency as the filter

(1:08:20) Christians should be thinkers

• question your pastor

• leave churches pushing evil

• conviction over belonging

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154. Kingdom Politics vs. Chaos: Can a Voluntary Society Reflect Jesus?

“What if the problem isn’t that we haven’t found the right rulers, but that we keep assuming someone needs to rule us at all?”

There’s a moment that shows up in almost every conversation about politics and faith. It usually comes right after someone says, “Okay, but what about bad people?” The room tightens. The air shifts. Because underneath the question isn’t policy, it’s fear. Fear of chaos. Fear of losing control. Fear that without someone in charge, everything falls apart.

This episode lives inside that moment.

Craig sits down with economist and author Bob Murphy to talk about Bob’s short book, Chaos Theory. On the surface, it’s about how law, courts, and public safety might work without a centralized state. But that’s not really why Craig wanted the conversation. What he’s really asking is something Christians rarely slow down long enough to face: Why are we so sure that force is necessary for order, and what does that say about what we believe Jesus actually taught?

Bob doesn’t come in trying to convince anyone. He comes in careful. Thoughtful. Almost pastoral. He knows the ideas he’s talking about can trigger alarm bells. So instead of starting with labels or slogans, he starts with a question that keeps circling back throughout the episode: Should anyone be allowed to do things that would be wrong for everyone else?

Craig Meets Bob Murphy

Craig opens with honesty. He’s familiar with these ideas. He’s heard them before. But he also knows where people get stuck. It’s not usually in theory. It’s in the details.

“How does this actually work?” Craig asks. “Not in a perfect world, but in this one.”

Bob nods. He doesn’t promise a world without sin or harm. “The goal isn’t utopia,” he says. “The goal is removing what I call an institutionalized aggressor.”

That phrase lands heavy.

Bob explains that every system has problems because people have problems. The difference is whether the system itself assumes that violence and threats are necessary tools. A voluntary society, he says, doesn’t eliminate wrongdoing. It eliminates the idea that some people are allowed to do wrong by design.

Craig pauses there, not because he disagrees, but because he recognizes how deeply that assumption runs. For Christians, this isn’t an abstract argument. It cuts straight into how we’ve learned to think about safety, authority, and obedience.

Why Bob Steps Around the Word “Anarchy”

Early in the conversation, Bob explains why he rarely leads with the word “anarchist,” especially among Christians. The word comes loaded. Too many images. Too many misunderstandings.

“I actually believe in order,” Bob says. “I just don’t think order requires rulers.”

Instead, he uses the phrase voluntary society. It sounds less dramatic, but it’s more accurate. A voluntary society isn’t about tearing everything down. It’s about cooperation without coercion. Rules without rulers. Agreement without threats.

Craig connects this to Christian nationalism almost instinctively. When Christians say “Jesus is King,” do we really believe it? Or do we still assume someone else needs to enforce things for Him? Jesus refused power when it was offered. He didn’t seize control. He invited people to follow.

That contrast lingers.

A Boring Word That Changes Everything

Midway through the episode, Craig opens Bob’s book and lands on a section that doesn’t sound very spiritual at all: contracts.

It almost feels like a letdown at first. No revolution. No big speeches. Just agreements.

But Bob leans in. Contracts, he explains, are how most of our lives already work. Jobs. Housing. Insurance. Services. We trust them not because someone is holding a gun, but because incentives, reputation, and accountability matter.

“Insurance companies don’t want to write million-dollar checks,” Bob says. “So they care about safety. They ask questions. They check training. They look at track records.”

Craig pushes back with the concern many listeners will feel. What about the vulnerable? What about people without power or money?

Bob doesn’t pretend this system fixes everything. He simply points out that our current system already fails the vulnerable, often while claiming moral authority. A voluntary system doesn’t solve sin. It just stops pretending that force is love.

Consent, Compliance, and the Ballot Box

One of the most uncomfortable turns in the conversation comes when Bob challenges the idea that voting equals consent.

“In normal life,” Bob says, “consent means you can say no. You can walk away.”

You can’t really do that with the state.

Markets depend on persuasion. Governments depend on compliance. Craig lets that contrast sit without rushing to resolve it. Because Jesus never appealed to majorities. He appealed to hearts. To repentance. To truth.

“If we wouldn’t do this to our neighbor,” Craig reflects, “why are we okay with a system that does?”

That question doesn’t get answered. And that’s the point.

Live the Question Jesus Calls us To Ask

This episode doesn’t give you a platform to stand on. It gives you a question to carry. And following Jesus has always meant carrying questions that cost us something.

If this conversation unsettled you, sit with that. Keep asking what it really means to follow a crucified King.

🤝 Connect with Bob Murphy 🤝

• Read the Book: Chaos Theory (buy on Amazon), Chaos Theory (pdf)

• Bob’s other books: Contra Krugman: Smashing the Errors of America’s Most Famous Keynesian; Lessons for the Young Economist; Choice: Cooperation, Enterprise, and Human Action

• Bob’s Podcasts: Human Action Podcast and The Bob Murphy Show

• X (Twitter): @BobMurphyEcon

• Bob’s YouTube Channel:@BobMurphyAncap

Highlights & Takeaways

• A voluntary society doesn’t promise a perfect world

• It refuses to give moral exemptions to people in power

• Order and control are not the same thing

• Consent requires the real option to walk away

• Jesus never modeled threat-based transformation

• Christian nationalism trusts force where Jesus trusted faithfulness

• You don’t need a political plan to name a moral problem

Listen & Reflect

Listen: Pay attention to where fear enters the conversation. What are we afraid would happen if control loosened?

Reflect: Where have we accepted systems that do things we would never justify in our own lives?

Read: Read Matthew 5–7 slowly. Notice which teachings feel “impractical,”and ask why.

Practice: This week, choose persuasion over pressure in one real situation. Let go of leverage and see what remains.

Episode Timestamps:

(00:00) Voluntary Society: “Wouldn’t That Be Chaos?”

• bad actors, security, fear of “chaos”

• why Bob Murphy + Chaos Theory today

• frame: Christ over the state

(00:45) Welcome Bob Murphy

• Craig’s intro + how they got connected (Dominic)

• Episodes with Dominic

• Judas the OG Christian Nationalist: Why Imposters Are Worse Than Opponents with Domenic Scarcella EP #147

• Christianity Unpacked in "Good Neighbor, Bad Citizen" with Domenic Scarcella EP #97

(06:19) Why Bob Avoids the “Anarchist” Label

• two kinds of “anarchists”

• “I have a king… not an earthly king”

• prefers “voluntary society” language

(07:19) Sermon on the Mount + Politics That Fit Jesus

• “dovetail… best with what Jesus told Christians”

• Craig’s shift from “looking for somebody to vote for”

• discipleship vs ideology

(10:57) “I Don’t Have to Have a Plan”

• refusing the election-pressure test

• “this current system… is crazy”

• Craig: “yeah, you’re allowed”

(11:33) Salsa Break: No King but Christ

• put the politics down

• support the show

• “no king but Christ” hook

(12:14) Chaos Theory: Contracts

• why contracts matter in a voluntary society

• how contracts already matter

(14:37) “Institutionalized Aggressor” + Imposed Rules

• no “my guy loses → stuff imposed on me”

• what the booklet is trying to show

• contracts “on the front end”

(33:14) Insurance as Due Diligence

• “standard package” idea

• insurance companies = background checks

• malpractice example bridge

(34:03) Incentives: Background Checks + Risk

• “we might have to pay $2 million”

• vetting training, history, reputation

• why incentives shape behavior

(46:57) “Give the Experts Guns” Problem

• “very naive” assumption

• experts can be the bad guys

• quick support spotfund message + Memphis charities

(58:27) “Aren’t Insurance Companies the Government?”

• “they seem like they play an important part”

• Bob: not government because it’s voluntary

• competition + no power to block new entrants

(1:03:24) Where to Find Bob + What He’s Building

• how to get Chaos Theory (PDF or physical)

• Human Action Podcast + other work

(1:04:22) Wrap-Up + Possible Part 2

• “small book… packed tight”

• Bob open to coming back

• Craig: “we didn’t get to cover everything”

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124. Humor, Healing, & Finding Purpose with Jeff Macolino

About this Episode

Have you ever felt like you're the worst person in the world? That everyone else has it together while you're just fumbling through life? If so, you're not alone. In this eye-opening episode of the Bad Roman Podcast, host Craig Hargis sat down with comedian and fellow podcaster Jeff Macalino to explore the surprising power of self-deprecating humor and its potential to transform lives.

The Unexpected Therapy Session

What started as a casual conversation about politics and faith quickly evolved into an impromptu therapy session that left both Craig and Jeff laughing and reflecting on the nature of self-worth. Jeff's raw honesty about his struggles with self-hatred struck a chord, revealing a universal human experience that many grapple with silently.

> "I hate myself more than anybody else in the world. Meaning I think I'm a horrible person. I'm terrible. I'm an abomination. I hate everything about me." - Jeff Macalino

At first glance, this level of self-loathing might seem alarming. But as the conversation unfolded, it became clear that Jeff's ability to confront and express these feelings openly was actually a source of strength and connection.

The Healing Power of Laughter

One of the most striking insights from their chat was Jeff's unique approach to dealing with embarrassment and personal shortcomings. Instead of hiding his mistakes or awkward moments, he chooses to share them openly, often turning them into hilarious anecdotes that bring joy to others.

Consider this: When was the last time you turned a mortifying experience into a source of laughter for yourself and others?

Jeff's philosophy is simple yet profound:

1. Experience something embarrassing or negative

2. Share it openly, often with humorous exaggeration

3. Make others laugh, turning negative energy into positive

This approach doesn't just provide momentary relief; it has the potential to reshape one's relationship with their own imperfections. By laughing at themselves, individuals can:

• Reduce the power of shame and self-criticism

• Create connections through shared human experiences

• Find value in mistakes and awkward moments

Reframing Self-Hatred: A Christian Perspective

As a Christian, Craig found himself reflecting on how Jeff's struggles align with the teachings of Jesus. It's easy to forget that Christ doesn't reject anyone, no matter how harshly they judge themselves. This realization led to a powerful moment in their conversation:

> "If Jesus doesn't reject you and you have these Christian tendencies, you have these Christian leanings... he doesn't reject you. You shouldn't reject yourself either."

This perspective offers a profound counterpoint to self-hatred. It challenges individuals to view themselves through a lens of grace and acceptance, mirroring the unconditional love that is central to Christian faith.

Practical Steps for Self-Acceptance

While the conversation was filled with laughter, it also yielded some practical advice for those struggling with self-worth:

1. Start with the basics: Craig recommended Jeff (and now you) to read the Sermon on the Mount daily. This foundational teaching of Jesus can provide a new perspective on self-worth and relationships with others.

2. Embrace vulnerability: Share embarrassing moments or mistakes. You might be surprised at how many people relate and find comfort in openness.

3. Look for the humor: Try to find the funny side of awkward experiences. This doesn't trivialize them but can help reduce their emotional impact.

4. Remember your impact: Jeff's comedy brings joy to countless people. Similarly, reflect on the positive impact you have on others, even in small ways.

5. Practice self-compassion: Treat yourself with the same kindness and understanding you'd offer a good friend.

What We Learned About Self-Worth and Joy

This episode reminded Craig of the transformative power of honest conversation and shared laughter. Jeff's openness about his struggles with self-hatred, coupled with his ability to find humor in life's awkward moments, offers a unique pathway to self-acceptance and joy.

As they wrapped up their chat, Craig found himself deeply grateful for the unexpected direction the conversation had taken. It served as a powerful reminder that sometimes, the most profound insights come from the most unplanned moments.

Whether you're grappling with self-doubt, seeking ways to find more joy in your life, or simply in need of a good laugh, listening to the full episode might just change the way you view yourself and the world around you.

Remember, in a world that often feels divided, shared experiences of awkwardness, self-doubt, and the ability to laugh at oneself can be a powerful unifying force. So the next time you find yourself cringing at a personal faux pas, consider sharing it with a friend. You might just turn that moment of embarrassment into a catalyst for connection and joy.

Connect with Jeff Macolino:

• Instagram, X, Facebook, YouTube

• Jeff Macolino Podcast: Spotify, Apple Podcast

• Acting work on IMDB

Episode Timestamps:

Timestamps:

0:22 Guest Introduction: Jeff Macalino

• Craig on Jeff’s podcast " target="_blank">Episode 174

0:44 Opening Banter and Sports Talk

• Craig’s evolving relationship with the Dallas Cowboys

• Jeff recounts his experience as a New Orleans Saints fan

• younger fans focus more on individual athletes than teams

• parallels between sports fandom and political allegiances

7:51 Jeff's Background and Podcast

• Jeff Macalino Podcast

• Jeff's Acting Career

• "Haunted Happy Hour" on Prime

• "The Last Ride" where Jeff serves as executive producer and lead actor

11:44 Exploration of Past Life Regression

• Jeff shares his experience with past life regression facilitated by a friend

• Describes the process as therapeutic regardless of belief in reincarnation

18:30 Spirituality and Christianity

• Jeff reflects on his Catholic upbringing and current spiritual journey

• Discusses openness to various spiritual experiences and the complexities of political involvement

21:03 Political Engagement and Voting

• Jeff shares his conflicted feelings about voting particularly regarding marijuana legalization in Florida

• moral dilemmas and compromises involved in political participation

25:57 Christian Anarchist Perspective

• Craig explains his view on disengagement from politics emphasizing following Jesus over political involvement

• challenges of maintaining this perspective in a politically charged environment

29:24 Self-Perception and Humor

• Jeff talks about his tendency towards self-deprecation and using humor to cope with negative experiences

• Craig encourages Jeff to recognize his positive impact through humor and entertainment

47:45 Closing Thoughts 

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