83. The Cult of Statism with Larken Rose

About this Episode

Prominent anarchist activist and author Larken Rose joins Craig for a lively discussion on deprogramming people from the cult of statism. People are mostly inherently good at heart but have been indoctrinated from a young age to believe that government is a legitimate authority. Larken Rose makes a clear case for the immorality of government. Larken and Craig discuss how to engage statists using methods designed to combat their cognitive biases and awaken their inner anarchist.

Government preys on people's fears to keep them voting for corrupt politicians' forcible domination of their neighbors. To keep the rules, the ruling class (politicians) have enforcers (police) empowered to engage in acts of violence that most voters would bulk at committing against another human beings. Thus, when Christians vote, they are unwittingly breaking Jesus' golden rule and doing to others the exact opposite of what they want to have done to themselves. 

Christians should be the most suspicious of the state as it is a competing religious entity with all the rituals, fancy buildings and pomp. But unfortunately, some Christians strongly believe in the state and its illegitimate rulers even more than they believe in Jesus. These Christians need to be gently shown the contradictions in their beliefs and that when they advocate for a human ruler, they advocate for the subjugation of themselves and their neighbors. True followers of Jesus should see that Christianity and the cult of statism oppose each other, but Christianity and anarchy are not mutually exclusive.

Larken Rose:

The Most Dangerous Superstition 

YouTube

Candles in the Dark

Facebook

Episode Timestamps:

4:17 – About Larken Rose:

• Taught to doubt and debate ideas from a young age

• Began trying to decide what a legitimate or moral government looks like

• Accidentally fell off the political spectrum

• Realized that 'legitimate government' is an oxymoron

• Government has no special power to rob or legislate

• Assumes people have consciences and can distinguish right from wrong

• That's why he's an anarchist

•  Doesn't care what people say they believe about religion

• How they treat other people matters

• Do they abide by the non-aggression principle?

• If the government disappeared suddenly, Larken would prefer to be around Christian Statists than some atheist anarchists

• They are nicer people without the political monstrosity

• The quality of people matters most

16:09 – What currently ails the world?

• People have been taught to believe that when evil is committed by government authorities, it is no longer evil

• Individuals are tricked into cheering for evil

• Even Hitler, Stalin and Mao

• They fall for the false god

• Because their fears are played on

• Christians gloss over Matthew 20:25-28

• David Bently Hart New Testament Translation

24:33 – How to awaken someone else's inner anarchist

• People know the corruption of government but try not to know at the same time

• Larken Rose asks others to be personal, literal and specific while asking questions about why they need the government

• If they respond, "protect the innocent"

• Larken asks, "If I found a more efficient way to protect the innocent and refuse to pay for police. What should happen to me?"

• They get uncomfortable as Larken asks them to be specific about what should happen.

• They don't want to blurt out the violence of government

• No arguing is required

• Because if they advocate for a government they are advocating violence against peaceful citizens

• Wanting to "help the poor" is no longer fluffy-sounding goodness

• Should only the state have all the guns?

• Candles in the Dark

• No one wants to admit the violence they condone

• They don't dare look at the conflicts in their beliefs

• We need to lead them to the cognitive dissonance

41:36 – Don't do unto others what you don't want them to do unto you 

• Literally every voter does exactly what they don't want the other side to do to them

• Democracy is the best trick tyrants ever came up with

• It makes people mad at each other

• It makes people consent and vote for evil

• Politicians are all feasting together and laughing at your fears

• Did you just enable evil?

• The other bad guy option is irrelevant

• You cheer for your own subjugation

• You victimize everybody when you vote

• Jesus advocated serving others not lording it over them

• The Soviet Union, China and North Korea are all Constitutional Republics and have their own Bill of Rights

• It's wrong to ask someone else to commit evil for you

• Everyone who votes is a hypocrite without knowing it

• They vote for others to do things they know would be wrong if they did it themselves

• They are not going to go door-to-door to rob people to give to the poor

54:39 – Statism is a religion

• It has rituals, ceremonies, grandiose halls, pomp and tradition

• Voting is just choosing your new god

• The pieces of paper are religious texts

• Statism: The Most Dangerous Religion

• Government authority is not a real thing

• Pledging allegiance in churches doesn't happen in other nations

• Vaccines in churches

• It's frustrating to try to talk people out of their programming

• Need to use cult deprogramming tactics

• Belief in government is a cult

• They don't realize they hold a faith

• If people were living in a free society and someone came along and suggested we give them the power to forcibly rob and dominate we would say, 'no'

• But every election comes down to, 'give me power over you and everyone you know'

• People become violent if you dare bash the pledge of allegiance or trample on the flag

• Belief in government is a faith; not practical or logical

• People are trained to pledge loyalty to the authoritarian rulers of the US

• People are horrified if you admit to being unpatriotic

• Some Christians will become more upset when they hear, "I don't believe in government"
  then when they hear, "I don't believe in God"

• Government is what they really believe in

• Sometimes you need to offend people to shake them out of their indoctrination

1:08:28 – Government: The largest gang

• Without government, there would still be bad actors, but they would not be able to marshal the firepower that governments have

• People feel morally obliged to give them their extortion fees 

• All of the governmental power comes from the people they duped

• Taxpayers and enforcers

• Congressmen will not come to try to take your money personally

• They use it to make nuclear warheads and tanks

• Corporations cannot make us buy their products; if they tried, people would wipe them out

• No gang can enslave the population of the US

• Larken Rose is optimistic

• If people start ignoring the government and human rulers, the government is done

• The evil people are way outnumbered by good

• Rulers are just people

1:18:07 - Religion and anarchism are not mutually exclusive

• People can use gods to justify violence against others or as a standard to live by

• Government can never be legitimate, but belief in god is not automatically bad

• Not automatically authoritarian

• Religion has been used in the past to create authoritarian rulers too

• If society's standard is not initiating violence against others, that will allow peaceful co-existence

• It allows friendly discussions on all sorts of topics

• Christians have a reason to identify as anarchists: Jesus Christ

• Christian, who do you pay tribute to? Whom do you ask to save you from your enemies? If its people in Washington, you need to consider who your god is

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65. Reclaiming Church with Dan Morrison

About this Episode

Craig is joined by the Rev. Dr. Dan Morrison, Assistant Rector of All Saint Anglican Church in Springfield, Missouri. Dan brings his plethora of experience and knowledge of scripture to the show for a conversation on the original role of the Church and how modern Christianity is living up to the model Jesus set forth over 2,000 years ago. 

Why do Christians seek solutions through political systems of power and fail to remember those are the very systems that murdered our savior? How did we get here, and how can we reclaim Churches for Jesus rather than sell out to the state and its illusions for physical and spiritual freedom? Too often we forget it is Jesus who makes us free, but that freedom is not freedom from suffering, but rather a call towards it. It should be difficult to be a citizen of heaven in a fallen world, but that is when we need to turn to God most.

In divinity school Dan became an expert on the book of Revelations, he shares his expertise and vision for the future of Churches with Craig, as well as some perspective on how we have gotten so off course as Christians. Listeners will leave this episode with a renewed desire to pursue Christ over politics, to not fall trap to the illusions of earthly power, but to instead do what Jesus would do, turn from the earthly kingdoms, and show the world what it means to know the love of God.

Episode Timestamps:

00:35 Shoutout to Amber

01:06 Dan’s Background

• Assistant Rector All Saint Anglican Church in Springfield, MI

• Undergrad in classical applied math

• Ph.D. in Divinity studies

• Roll-tide or Razorbacks?

03:30 Dan’s Sermon 

05:36 Why are Christians seeking solutions through political systems?

• Do christians truly trust God as the ruler of all things?

• Christians are called to suffer in following Jesus

  • We live in a fallen world, the systems of the world ar destined to fall…yet we latch onto them instead of God 

• Fear vs. Jesus

  • the two-party system – voting against vs. for something

• Illusions of changing the system from within

• Joining the military

  • Asses what you are doing and why

    • Don’t lose sight of Christ’s way

• World systems have been allowed to infiltrate the churches

  • Result: churches look more like the world than Christ

11:20 Two Responses to September 11, 2001

• Preach the gospel or kill people out of anger

• Profiling others (only God can judge anyone)

• Christians on the right and left

  • Being a “Christian nation” (are we the good guys?)

    • The deadliness of the United States Empire

  • “Hold my beer”

14:06 Who do we worship at Church? 

• Jesus, Troops, Flags, and Afghanistan

• Romans 13

  • But first: Romans 12

• Killing other Christians (or anyone) for the sake of a geopolitical nation

  • Partisan agendas and scripture

    • Conquest in the old testament – Joshua

    • Can’t pick and choose, must then look at the old testament text about care for the foreigner, ect.

    • It’s all or nothing or in consistency

17:50 The Consistency of Jesus – who will you follow?

• We don’t follow Paul or Joshua, we follow Jesus and his teachings

  • “When you’ve seen me you’ve seen the father”

  • Jesus is who set us free – take that seriously, opt. Out

    • Galatians 5:1 – USA is not who set us free

19:07 The World is Watching – What are you going to do as a Christian?

• The state is going to do what the state is going to do

• We forget who we belong to as Christians

  • Or we just ignore it

• “America” is not even the United States of America (i.e. remember Canada, South America, Central America, and Mexico?)

  • Jerusalem and USA 

    • False belief: God created the USA on purpose to protect Israel

• Paul’s statement of the Israel of God reconciled with Romans 13

  • Romans 13 in light of Romans 12

• Jesus never gives us the power to call done fire from heaven upon anyone

  • If you think that’s what being Christian is about then you don’t get Jesus

• Loving your neighbor and enemy leaves you with no one left to hate

22:33 Romans 13 out of context — the Jump to the White Horse of Revelations 

• Revelation 1

  • God as Jesus Christ ruler of Kings on Earth

• Revelation 4

• Revelation 17

  • Will God rain fire?

  • “John’s 3rd Vision”

    • People with Jesus do nothing but ride in behind him, no one is slayed

  • Destruction of Babylon – Romans 17 Verse 16

    • World Sytems implode on themselves, their failure is baked into their creation before Jesus ever shows up

• We are going to kill people in the name of Jesus does not add up

  • God never tells us to do that

• Nations get stricken down because they have waged war against Christ himself

• Churches – fix yourselves!

• The systems are powered by satan

  • Will we appeal to the empire to feel safe or dare to follow Jesus

• Jezebel – welcome in the imperialism in the church

  • The false hope of political power

• Churches are in bed with the empire

31:38 Difficulty of Finding a Church that has Jesus as the Focus

• Home church?

• Pushback from Dan’s sermon on revelation

35:47 January 6, 2021

• Christians trying to save their earthly king

• Civil Religion

  • People have become enchanted as if by a spell

• Did God stop being ruler? 

• Ruling by proxy, shifting blame to please God

  • Outsourcing sin

• Paul could not have voted Cesar into power

  • Pray for those in authority over us

 43:09 Romans 13 – Paul uses Submit vs. Obey

• David Bentley Hart New Testament Tranaslation original greek

  • Peter: “It is necessary we obey God rather than man”

• Rosa Parks

• Abortion debate and submit or obey

  • Following the constitution

  • Live in a world where abortion is not seen as a choice, not one the government has a say so in

  • Don’t celebrate anything the government does

• With the reversal of Roe v. Wade — what is there left to run on?

• Should Christians be voting?

  • Why are you going to the world systems that caused the death of your savior?

  • Being in bed with the beast vs. suffering under the foot of the beast

51:26 Choose this day (and every day) who you will serve

• Frustration with Christians and a relentless need to follow Jesus 

• The term we translate as Church is also a political term

  • Eclessica – a local gathering of the citizens of God that have come together for a purpose

54:29 Daniel I. Morrison’s Plugs

• Facebook 

• Twitter & Instagram

• Allsaintsspringfeild.org

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64. Is Jesus King? with Ian Minielley

About this Episode

Ian Minielly has written several articles for the Bad Roman and most recently is the author of the book The Genetic God. He is passionate about the church worshiping Jesus without the state and encouraging people to seek first His Kingdom. 

Who is our king? Many people would respond that we don’t have one in America. But Christians do. We have a global King. Our president is the furthest person on Earth from meeting God’s standards for a ruler. We do not meet those standards. No one does but Jesus. He is our King.

Episode Timestamps:

00:20 

• Are you fit to rule over your neighbor or are they fit to rule over you?

• “People wanting to clamor for a new king because they want their team to win, but who exactly is fit to be king?” - Craig

1:52 Inspiration for the article

• Watching football

  • Political ads

• Read Deuteronomy 17

  • Guidelines for a king

  • God’s warns them

    • “Kings are bad, but I know you’ll want one, so here’s how to best do that”

  • When they did get a king, they went against most of the guidelines

    • All presidents swear an oath to the Constitution

      • All presidents break that oath

        • Why are they making new laws if they can’t even keep the ones

          • Legislators should be hired to abolish laws, not add more

• Figured out politicians never do what they promise

  • At age 31

  • Could not continue to be made the fool who believed it would fix things if a certain person was in office

    • When the house, senate, and presidency have all been 1 side, things have still not improved

      • In fact, they’ve had power to do worse things

    • People think they gotta get the right justice into the supreme court

  • People vote out of fear

  • Craig was 43 when he realized politicians don’t help anything

• Double-minded thinking

  • 1 John 2

    • “Do not love anything of the world.”

    • Pastor said that,

      • Ian looked at his wife, 

        • Who tried to avoid eye contact

        • He was obviously about to point out the contradiction

          • In 2 weeks, they were going to have a big 4th of July USA celebration

          • Which is something of the world

13:50 

• II Timothy 3:16

  • All Scripture is useful

    • Random passage in Deuteronomy completely changed Ian’s view on politics

    • Only read it as part of a yearly reading plan

      • But it made him realize that our politicians are not legitimate kings

        • Only Jesus is

14:44 Why do Christians vote?

• They’re indoctrinated to believe that’s their responsibility

• Of course, they’re choosing between the most depraved people in the country

  • Twist Romans 13

• The pulpit has failed

  • Those in pews think they’re supposed to focus on Earthly matters

• The empire is falling

• “Everything the state touches, they screw up. Why in the hell are you going out there and putting more people in power? Why don't you just walk away?” - Craig

  • Right before COVID, many people were starting to realize this

    • So why are people still trusting the state at this point??

  • It’s like we’re in Babylonian captivity

    • Daniel and his friends refused to eat the king’s food

      • Everyone else ate it and fell ill

      • Those 4 men were healthy and strong

    • Most people are choosing to live like Babylonians

      • Doing what’s expected to survive

    • Daniel chose to worship God even when the law said only the king

      • Thrown in the lions’ den, but not consumed

    • Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego refused to bow to the idol

      • Thrown in the furnace, but did not burn

    • We refuse to eat the king’s food

      • We’re spread throughout the country as tiny beacons of light

  • When in Rome…

    • When in the United States, 

      • Act like an American

    • No. We are citizens of the Kingdom

    • “We have subjugated our real identity in Jesus, underneath the identity of a flag in whatever the national government over us is. And so we are a fractured people.” - Ian

  • “Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music.” - Friedrich Nietzsche

    • We’re not seen as beacons of light

    • People think we’re nuts

    • We’re going against the grain

    • “I got told the other day that at work. ‘You don't have a reason to complain cuz you don't even vote.’ That's the dumbest thing ever. I said, ‘You don't have a reason to complain. You asked for all of this, you asked for every bit of tyranny that you're getting.’” - Craig

21:55 Ways Christians have been manipulated to vote

• Against godless communism

• Against abortion

• 9/11

  • Craig even tried to join the National Guard

    • But was 4 whole pounds overweight

      • His momma is grateful for those 4 pounds

  • His friend got in

    • As soon as he arrived, they were in a fire fight

  • They wanted to go preach the Gospel

24:32 National (religious?) holidays

• Church service on American holidays

  • Service members stand and applauded for

  • Pledge to the flag

• The state has 100% infiltrated the church

  • Jesus Untangled by Keith Giles

• Ian got saved while in the army

  • The church on base was all about military

  • It’s a miracle he got saved there

    • The mindset was all about going overseas and killing humans

  • He just started reading the Bible

    • Realized everything he believed was wrong

    • He still has worldly thought patterns to break

• Christians vote because

  • They were raised on state worship

  • They’re taught to salute flags and stop when they hear the national anthem

  • That’s what good conservatives/Christians do 

    • If you don’t, you cannot be a good Christian

  • “They don't see how it's counter to our faith to worship the state and ask the state to do all these things.” - Ian

    • Gotta have a big, powerful state

    • Sell weapons to Ukrainians and Saudis so they can kill

      • Because it keeps Americans employed

      • “They got money to go to war, but they can’t feed the poor.” - Tupac

      • Why do people support that??

        • The Russians are image-bearers of God!

      • “The only good those planes might be able to do is if you took all those gun racks and bomb racks off and you put little parachute racks on there and they just dropped Bibles all over the world.” - Ian

      • “The next eight countries in the world don't spend as much on the military as the United States does, yet I'm supposed to think that China's a threat to me.” - Ian 

        • The US government is my enemy

          • China doesn’t steal my money

          • They’re not here right now

          • Muhammad Ali refused the draft, saying “I ain’t got no quarrel with those Vietcong.”

    • In Deut 7, God says you don’t want a king who’s after chariots and war

      • Yet that seems to be what everyone chases after

        • Ron Paul said he would cut the military and got cut from the race

    • He also warned that a king would take 10% of the people’s earnings

      • We sure give our “king” a lot more than that

      • Maybe we were better off under the monarchy

        • The Tea Party was about taxes less than 3%

    • People standing up to the war machine

      • Muhammad Ali

        • Refused the Vietnam draft

      • Laurence M. Vance

        • Written books on the topic

      • Kaepernick

        • Football player took a knee to protest police brutality

  • Now, players who don’t want to salute just stay in the locker room

    • They all used to do that

    • Until the government started buying ads to support the NFL

    • Now, players are expected to display patriotism on the field

    • If you have any influence and you stand against the machine, the government will work to destroy you

    • Some people stopped watching football because of players kneeling during the anthem

    • Just watch the game for the game and ignore the circus around it

      • They want you to focus on that

        • So you shouldn’t

    • There’s tons of army recruitment commercials

38:31 Is there anyone who is fit to be king?

• Israel wanted a king because everyone else had one

  • Made them feel like they had earthly power

• “I think I'm a pretty morally upstanding guy, but make me president, and I'm gonna make people do things they don't want to do.” - Ian

  • “I want to use the power of the state to force them to act how I think a morally upright person should, which is completely not morally upright.” - Ian

• If you want a president who makes war, raises taxes, spends lots of money, purposely keeps the population enslaved in poverty, 

  • That person exists

  • If you don’t want that,

    • Don’t vote

    • Because that’s what you’re going to get no matter what

• Libertarians believe if they had the power, these problems would go away

  • “If you wanted to spread a message of Liberty, then you'd be talking about Jesus.” - Craig

    • Not about getting some guy elected

  • People try to get Craig to run for office

    • Can’t change the mafia from the inside

      • Can only change their hearts with Jesus

40:56 Tell people about Jesus

• They might say He wasn’t real

  • What if He wasn’t?

    • What do we lose by following His teachings?

    • How would the world be different

      • If “Christians” followed Jesus?

    • Christians can’t even envision it

      • Because they’ve been too ingrained with the state

41:40 Seek ye first the Kingdom

• Luke 12

• Jesus is dropping truth bombs

  • A dude interrupts to ask Jesus to tell his brother to share the inheritance

  • Jesus tells the story of the rich fool

    • He had plenty

    • His harvest was huge

    • Rather than share or even sell it, he built bigger barns

      • Needed it all for himself

    • He wanted to eat, drink, and be merry

    • He died. God took his breath

  • Don’t worry about Earthly possessions

    • Seek His Kingdom, and all you need will be provided

    • God knows you need food, clothing, shelter, and security

      • Stop chasing after those 4 things

      • Chase after Him!

      • Everyone’s doing it backwards

      • They live their life and maybe volunteer for VBS once a year

      • “From morning till sunrise or sunset all day long, you pursue the Kingdom.” - Ian

        • Are you talking to people about Jesus?

      • “That stuff is so interesting because He's already said it's gonna be provided and yet, people still worry about it.” - Craig

      • Only Satan could convince us to chase those 4 things

      • Our society’s structure

        • No one likes work

          • They’re upset they’re not at home with their family

        • Husband and wife are both working

          • Send kids off to the free indoctrination camp

          • To learn to become plantation workers

        • Develop heart problems at 60

          • Don’t get retirement benefits

          • Whole life wasted

      • If people would pursue God instead

        • Probably would have smaller house and truck

        • But not regretting living to stuff the pockets of the government

      • It’s hard though, because new trucks are so shiny and cool

47:27 Did God put the president in power?

• If you believe determinism

• But those rulers are handpicked by evil people because they are the most corrupt

  • God wouldn’t pick the most corrupt

  • He can use the most corrupt

    • But He wouldn’t select such bloodthirsty individuals

• Biden was handpicked well in advance and put on the US throne

• God didn’t pick Trump either!!

• God picked Jesus

  • “God has Him ready to be the leader of every single person's life in the entire world.” -Ian

51:32 Isolation

• The Bad Roman lets people know that they're not the only one sitting in church gritting their teeth on national holidays

• Elijah felt isolated

  • Until God let him know about a remnant he had kept 

• People who've given up and left church can know that not all Christians worship the state 

• “Jesus freed us from thinking the way that we think today. He freed us from that; He broke those shackles. But the government is extremely good at getting people to put those shackles back on.” - Ian

  • All they gotta do is make you scared

    • And then offer security

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63. Universal Salvation with Abby Cleckner, Aree Spivey & Scott Goldman

About this Episode

Three brilliant minds join us on this episode to talk about what made them decide Christian universalism makes the most sense compared to other theologies. They share their personal stories as well as Scriptures to explain why Hell cannot exist, everyone will be together with Jesus in the end, and what that means for our current life here on Earth. These three are Abby Cleckner, Scott Goldman, and Aree Spivey from Failed Kingdoms – the artist of our intro song. Find him on YouTube and Kindle Vella, among other platforms.

God is love. God is just. God is infinitely merciful. God is not willing that any should perish. So, why do most Christians balk at the idea that God doesn’t send people to eternal punishment or obliterate them after death? We’ve been trained in what the correct answers are and never to question what the pastor says. But have you ever even truly thought it through for yourself?

Episode Timestamps:

00:37 Is Universalism Biblical or heretical?

• The main reason for the question

  • Many good Early Church quotes come from universalists

    • Commonly accepted in the church today as a pejorative

      • Even though universalism is rejected

2:50 Abby’s Religious Background

• Grew up typical protestant

  • Went to church on Sundays

    • But it never really meant anything

• Switched to Lutheran and Methodist

  • Moved a lot, so lots of different churches

• Church was a ritual she hated

  • Swore she’d never go as an adult

  • And never make her kids go

• Invited to Evangelical church in high school

  • No one dressed up

  • There were no hymnals

  • They played guitars

  • And it was more about relationship with God than ritual

  • About learning, studying, growing

    • But then in studying, came to stories like God commanding [Saul] to kill every man, woman, and child

      • Shocked that God would command him to kill babies

      • More and more stories like that that didn’t sit right built up

      • Didn’t align with who she knew God to be

      • “Study and ask questions, but not those kinds of questions.” - leaders Abby talked to at church

        • You’re just supposed to accept it and move on

• Listened to podcasts

  • Learned about church history

  • The rich diversity of beliefs

  • Christian universalism

    • What majority of early Christians believed

• Hell

  • “If you take the idea of Hell really seriously, you can never have peace.” - Abby

    • In relationships

      • Felt so guilty

      • Felt a responsibility to save all their souls

        • Hurry, in case they die today

  • “Jesus left paradise to come down and serve the suffering. And so how could He just let people suffer in Hell?” - Abby

  • “...people, I love, if they were in Hell, what would I do to get them out? How much more would God do that for them?” - Abby

7:23 Scott’s Religious Background

• Raised Pentecostcal

• Then Foursquare

• Hell was a big thing 

  • His churches were big on fire and brimstone

  • Got married

    • Then really came to God

    • Had to accept that his wife was headed to Hell

      • When she got saved, it was such a relief

  • Driving around with friends, sharing the love of Jesus

    • One said he wasn’t interested and asked what would happen

      • Well… you could kind of go to Hell

        • “That sounds like a threat”

      • Something in the air wasn’t right

  • Scared for his children’s souls

    • Especially when his oldest became a rebellious teen

    • You hope they get into the Word

      • Become that little worship leader you want them to be

  • Learned about annhilationism

    • Seemed more Scriptural

  • 1 Timothy 4:10

    • “...our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers.”

      • This changed everything

  • Started reading Keith Giles 

    • Amazon

    • Latest Bad Roman podcast episode

  • Currently listening to Graces Saves All by David Artman

    • Outlines why everything in the Bible points to universal salvation

  • Would sit in church and worry that those who didn’t go to the altar and repent would die, unsaved, in a car crash on the way home

  • Fear is not a great motivator for Scott;

    • Grace always is

  • And Jesus didn’t go around threatening people

    • He gave them grace

  • Grace doesn’t mean we do what we want

    • It motivates us to do better

  • Fear might motivate some people

    • But it’s not something Jesus ever used

• Inerrancy 

  • Puts more stock in Gospels than Epistles

    • Many believe the entire Bible is God’s Word

    • Jesus is the Word

    • The Gospels are about Jesus

      • Some were written by people who were with him every day

12:42 Ari’s Religious Background

• Grew up in black charismatic churches

  • Preached lots of hellfire

• N-64 trauma

  • He was in middle school

  • His Nintendo 64 his most important possession

  • His game stopped, so he tried blowing on the cartridge

    • Like 40 times

    • Didn’t work

  • Got so desperate he begged God to make it work

    • It still didn’t

  • So he told God, “I hate you”

  • A bit later, pastor preached on blaspheming the Holy Spirit

    • Said saying you hate God is a way to do that

    • So Ari’s sittin there thinking he can never be forgiven

      • Doesn’t matter what he’ll say or do now; his little mistake cost him everything

      • Cried every night begging God to forgive him

• His aunt died young

  • When he was about 6

  • He always wondered if she was in Heaven or Hell

  • She was in her wild 20’s phase

    • Pushed away from church

• In his 20’s, he became agnostic

• Slowly rebuilt his faith from the foundation up

  • Started studying Hell

    • The Fire That Consumes

      • Annhilist

    • Read 1 Cor 15:22

      • Started to wonder and research if everyone will be saved

        • Led to reading about the early church

  • Decided universalism is

    • Most moral

    • Logically consistent

18:38 Craig

• People should read what those from Jesus time - 500 years after understood

  • Polycarp was taught by John, who was taught by Jesus

• Questioned everything since birth

• Started understanding liberty, which led to anarchy

  • What if he was wrong about other things?

    • Even Biblical ideas?

• “If it’s not consistent, I’m done with it.” - Craig

  • How can there be 40,000 denominations?

    • Man did this

      • Maybe they should study the early church to see if they’re really right

        • Or maybe we just need to hold on to our current understandings more loosely

        • Be open to learning and changing

        • If God is infinite, maybe it does take that many denominations to show different parts of Him

        • “We're all on a journey trying to understand this the best that we can. And I'm never gonna be a hundred percent right.” - Abby

        • We’re gonna keep learning for all eternity

• Jesus was a questioner

  • People would get stumped because they came in to fight, not to understand

22:48ish The Western church is a lot like an empire

• Don’t question 

  • If you do, you’re out

• “Jesus was not killed by atheism and anarchy. He was brought down by law and order allied with religion – which is always a deadly mix. Beware those who claim to know the mind of God and are prepared to use force, if necessary, to make others conform. Beware those who cannot tell God’s will – from their own.” ~ Barbara Brown Taylor

• When the church came to power under Constantine

  • We served Caesar

  • Dictatorship

• The Western church is more like imperialism than Jesus

  • We’ve settled for Caesar too

  • Psychological similarities

    • With those who buck this idea of universalism

    • Addiction to power

    • COVID vaccine

      • “Do this, or else”

        • You can’t go shopping

        • You can’t go to Heaven

      • Question, and you’re just a conspiracy theorist

      • You’re not smart enough

        • Trust the experts

        • Belittling

    • Augustine

      • Someone asked him what God was doing before creation

        • “Creating Hell for people like you who ask stupid questions”

        • Smart question; had to be belittled to coerce everyone to stick with Augustine as the authority

    • Pastors Say 

      • “That’s just how it is”

      • “That’s what the Bible says, so it’s ok”

26:28 If Jesus said He’s going to save all people, why question whether He means everyone?

• Everyone asks, “What about Hitler?”

  • Just reaffirms idea that some people are more deserving of Heaven than others

    • But their theology says everyone is equally deserving of Hell

    • Everyone is also equally saveable

• If God intends to save everyone, He will

  • He has the power

  • He has the intention

• Romans 3:23

  • People use this verse passionately and frequently

    • But ignore “because of Adam, all die; but all are made alive in Christ.”

  • Proves where your focus is

    • The power of sin

    • Everyone is in sin vs all are alive

    • Lack of faith that God can deliver us all from it

• “People believe all sins can be forgiven except a misunderstanding.” - Abby

  • You can rape and murder

    • As long as you say sorry to Jesus

  • But you can’t be born Muslim or Hindu

    • And follow your religion for your whole life

• God is going to restore creation to its original intent

  • Except this little pocket called Hell

  • It doesn’t make sense for sin to be eternal

  • It doesn’t make sense to restore creation to perfection

    • But have most people – His children – be out of reach

    • “Why would he restore the entire universe except not allow people who didn't have the correct understanding while they were on earth to come into a right relationship with him?” - Abby

  • If God is infinitely merciful, why would He not save everyone?

  • We each have infinite chances

    • With sufficient knowledge of God, of course everyone will turn

33:53 Death is not finite

“Who says God can't still work on your heart after you've left this earth?” - Abby

• Jesus conquered death

  • Yet most people still believe death is final

    • That there’s no coming back from there; it’s your last chance

    • And once you cross that threshold, you’re out of God’s reach

34:41 Free will

• People hold to 

  • Love doesn’t force you to do anything

    • That’s why there has to be a Hell

      • Because we need freedom to choose one or the other

• But God isn’t forcing people to accept Him after death

  • He is simply providing more information

  • Removing the bondage of sin

  • And taking off layers of blinders

  • If it takes someone 3,000 years to choose Him, that’s their choice

    • Though, we’ll be living outside time

  • But everyone will accept Him in the end

36:18 More on death

• Death is a part of life

• It doesn’t last forever

• People attempting suicide (successful and not)

  • Seen Christ in each of them

  • Lost for a time, but not forever

• Death, where is your victory?

• “I'm not gonna feel the pain of this forever. I'm gonna be reunited with the people that I love, regardless of if they had it all figured out here or not.” - Scott ?

37:31 Scriptures for the skeptics

• Eternal damnation doesn’t make any sense, when you read Jesus’ words

• Burning Up song

  • Everyone will be salted with fire

  • Mark 9:49

  • Salt/Gehenna context

• If non-believers get time to come to Jesus after they die, do Christians get time to learn more and improve too?

  • Cuz we’ve all got stuff to work on

  • What happens when Christians die?

    • What if they screwed up right before they died?

• Where do souls go after death before the new Earth?

  • Perhaps we should leave it a mystery

  • Some people have died and been revived

    • Listen to them

  • But the Bible doesn’t explain the process

    • Refining fire

    • Absent from the body; present with the Lord (2 Cor 5:8)

      • But I’m present with Him now 

        • He is omnipresent

    • Matter is eternal

      • It’s just been reshaped over and over again

      • Energy never dies

      • Changes form

      • It would make sense that a similar pattern is happening beyond this earth

    • “Jesus loves us regardless. Don't tell a Christian that because it's gonna upset him.” - unknown

      • There’s no hellfire in that message

• Show me where Jesus says if you make a misstep, you’re gonna burn in Hell for eternity

  • He didn’t try to scare people into loving Him

• Hebrews 1:3

  • If Christ is a reflection of the Father

    • What about Old Testament slaughterings?

  • Stop focusing on words from the Bible

    • Putting the Bible over Christ is idolatry

  • “I don't need to read the Bible. I need to read who Christ is.” - Scott

  • Words are all we have to describe God

    • If we succeed, He is too small

    • He sent His son to show us

• Jesus

  • Not politician

  • Not a renowned carpenter or mason

  • He was a nobody

    • Calling Him the Son of God was an insult to Caesar

      • That was Caesar’s title

    • It was given to a Jewish rabbi who was not popular among His own people

      • He was seen as a heretic

      • They wanted to throw Him off a cliff

        • Luke 4:23-30

        • He spoke against their nationalism idol

      • The Kingdom of Heaven is for all people

        • Not just Israel

      • When you’re oppressed, you want your oppressor to be annihilated

      • But God loves Rome

      • Just as much as Israel

        • Fightin words

      • What if we said God loves the Taliban and wants the war to end?

      • The Jews believed that they were the chosen people, and the Messiah was coming just for them

        • Jesus said everyone was equal in the Kingdom

        • The Message is for the entire world

48:40 Christianity’s power

• Not a minority

• Not oppressed

• Still want to be tribalistic and put others out

  • Want our enemies to suffer in Hell

• The people with the true problem are often supposedly believers

  • Sheep and goats

49:45 Post-death purification

• We want to think, “This life is hard. As soon as I die, I’ll go to Heaven and be happy.”

• But we must be salted with fire

  • Scary thought

  • But God is good and loving

    • It will be beneficial

    • It’s all for our restoration and healing

  • It’s a mystery

    • But we know who God is

    • We don’t have to be scared of it

      • Even if it’s hard

  • He is Love

51:46 Quoting Scripture

• “I really do believe that Paul believed that there would be some who would be eternally annihilated, but I also believe that Paul obviously believed that ultimately, everybody would be saved.” - Ari

• The problem is, you show someone one verse

  • They show you another that proves the opposite point

  • The Bible is inconsistent

• Paul said meat sacrificed to idols was ok

  • John said no

• John said you need Jesus and the Law

  • Paul said no Law

• The Bible gives inconsistent eschatology

  • It points to different authors’ beliefs

    • Not necessarily what Jesus said

• Paul vacillated between some being annihilated and all being saved

  • How can you argue when both views are in the Bible?

• There’s obviously human error

  • So we just have to take it and decide what’s most moral and logical

• People will say Scripture cannot really mean one thing because it says the opposite somewhere else

  • Cannot try to reconcile them

  • Just accept that it’s different viewpoints

  • Focus on the main points

• If you find something immoral or inconsistent, reject it

  • God commanding slaughter in the Old Testament

    • Not moral

    • Jesus didn’t do that

• Paul believed like a good Jew that some would be annihilated

  • But then he wrestled with the truth

    • God is gonna save all people

    • Had a revelation

  • A lot of Jews struggled to accept Jesus because they didn’t expect the Messiah to die and resurrect like Christ did

    • Why is it hard to accept that Paul may have changed what he understood to be true?

• Other contradiction

  • Jacob I loved; Esau I hated

  • Vs God shows no partiality

• In Romans, Paul is arguing one side of a case

  • And then the other side

  • He’s of split mind trying to make peace

1:00:22 Repent

• That word is preached to mean turn 180° from your sin

• But it means rethink; change

• Paul started with black and white; good and evil 

  • Christ calls us to think outside that paradigm

• Could say that this is Hell and we are currently being purified

  • And once we get to be with Christ, it’ll be done

  • But Jesus says His Kingdom is here

  • We can see His glory here, in this life

1:01:54 Jesus is a peacemaker

• Parables of lost things

• Lost, found, party

• Sons

  • One squandered his wealth

  • The other stayed home, but never really knew his father

  • The father makes peace with each of them

    • We can’t cast aside our pious brothers with different convictions

    • They can’t hate those of us who have strayed

  • His love never changes for either one

  • The Prodigal God by Tim Keller

• “I need to love these people who are telling me I’m going to Hell.” - Scott

• In Scripture, when Jesus gets mad at Pharisees

  • Maybe He’s full of compassion

  • The word we translate “Fool” or “Hypocrite” could mean “Actor”

    • Human authority isn’t real

      • It’s just actors dressed up in costumes and playing a part

• We are all children of God

  • Creation is longing for us to realize we’re sons and daughters of the Most High

    • Romans 8:19

    • No need to fight

1:04:41 Is the Bible meaningless, then?

• No

• It has deep meaning

• The above explanation of the prodigal son revealed new insights

  • Every time Abby hears that story, she learns something new

• That’s why it has survived empires and centuries

  • It’s not just a how-to guide on getting on God’s good or bad side

  • The stories 

    • Tell us about ourselves as humans

    • Give us something to think about

    • Let us contemplate our relationship with God

• Everyone is searching and discovering

  • Coming to different conclusions

    • Let’s embrace everyone’s journey as equals

• “Loving God with all of your mind is to relentlessly keep questioning and keep trying to figure it out and not be stuck in a spot where you're unwilling to change your mind.” - Craig

• The human capacity to get things wrong is endless

  • People imagine God guiding the authors’ pens as they wrote Scripture

  • Reality is, people were involved

    • People mess up

1:07:54 Biblical cases against universalism

• Conditional immortality

  • Dare We Hope?

    • There are contradictions in Scripture about eschatology

    • Hold these tensions as humbly as we can

      • And not presume that everyone will or won’t be saved

  • Best argument against it

    • That All Shall Be Saved

      • Best argument against Hell

      • If God permits some to be eternally lost, then He is evil

        • Even if He permits them to damn themselves

        • He cannot possibly be purely loving and just

      • Humans do not exist in a vacuum

        • We’re shaped by those around us

        • If one damns itself, others around it might make different choices and end up damned

        • Could lead to the collapse of humanity

          • In the same way, everybody must be saved for anybody to be

  • Libertarian freedom is stupid

  • If God would give us sufficient evidence to see that He is everything we need, everyone would choose Him

    • Annihilationism fails

      • Even though it’s in Scripture

• The Bible is clear on Hell

  • Contradictions

  • More clearly supports universalism

    • Starting with Abraham being a blessing to all nations (Gen 22:18)

• Allegory and truths

  • God is love

    • Read this into other Scriptures

  • Definition of eternal life

    • John 17:3

    • Knowing God

      • Depart from Me; I never knew you

        • You didn’t know My true character

      • Even Paul sometimes did something with the wrong mindset

        • Big trouble for casting out a demon out of annoyance

  • We are loved regardless of our good works

  • Doing good for the sake of doing good

  • Heaven and Hell is often about

    • A reward

    • Avoidance of a punishment

      • Fear-based

      • God did not give us a spirit of fear

    • We should be following God for the benefit of our neighbors as well as ourselves

  • Harmony is loving ourselves and others equally

• What’s the point of Jesus dying on the cross if everyone gets in?

  • The Gospel isn’t our ticket into Heaven

    • It’s that the Kingdom is here

• God is love, but He is also just

  • What is justice?

    • People think of it as prison and death

    • God’s justice is restorative

    • Healing what is lost

      • Bringing us into a right relationship with Him

    • “Justice isn't somebody stealing something and getting their hand cut off; justice is that item being returned.” - Abby

    • When Hitler is restored, he will love those he harmed

      • And they’ll be restored to be able to love him also

  • Restoration doesn’t seem possible based on our experiences

    • But God is moving

• Live your values until people start asking questions

---

Related Episodes

Related Blog Post

48. Meeting People Where They Are with Justin Cornett of For All Tennessee

In this episode, we take the podcast in a bit of a different direction. We are anarchists, but we've brought in someone who works within the state to improve citizens’ lives through the legislature. Justin Cornett started For All Tennessee so he can act as a go-between from citizens to their representatives.

For All TN listens to citizens’ needs and works to get them taken care of them by passing bills. This organization is different because its members vote on which issues to pursue, and the company is not controlled by money. For more information, visit For All Tennessee or email info@foralltn.org. Follow Justin on Facebook and Twitter. 

At The Bad Roman Project, we wish the state didn't exist. But the fact is, it does. I (Craig) have been learning that people won’t immediately jump to anarchy from their brainwashed state. We have to meet them where they're at. We have to find ways to make them see that they don't want to be controlled by an authority, especially one who only cares about them as long as they're contributing financially to the government.

Part of the work Justin is doing is spreading knowledge to average citizens about the unfair and unconstitutional laws they are abiding by. He opens their eyes to what the government is doing and encourages them to join him in pushing their local representatives in a different direction. This is a step towards freedom, a step towards taking control of what's ruling their lives and realizing how harmful the government is to their community. 

Timestamps:

2:43 Biden’s “Proclamation” about vaccine mandates

• It was just a press release

• Good ideas don’t require force

  • It’s a bad idea to criminalize bad decision making

• They never pushed the flu shot quite like this 

• “If they would have just let people decide on their own, more people probably would have taken this shot.” -Craig

• So much overreaction at the beginning by people on both sides of the aisle that people are now almost underactive and unwilling to put an experiment in their arms

• Biden and governors (like Texas and Florida) are making “mandates” about the vaccine – either that it can or cannot be required of specific people

  • But in Tennessee, it is a law that companies cannot require their employees to be vaccinated

    • Craig hasn’t had to choose between his livelihood and his life like so many others

    • Justin helped him talk to his politicians about it

8:30 We still live under our government

• Reality is, we live with a governmental system

  • If we want anything to happen, we have to work within that system

  •  most of the followers of the bad Roman are not ready to declare total anarchy, so we have to ease them into it a bit

  • “The world exists as it exists… If you try to operate contrary to the way the world actually works, it's not going to work out well for you.” -Justin

• Sometimes, people think they’re opposed to you

  • Until you take the time to understand them and explain more

    • And you both find they’ve said the same thing you said before, just differently

  • No one will listen to a headstrong bully

  • Jesus used love, hope, and patience to guide people to His path

    • If we don't use those tools, we will not succeed 

• Someone’s gotta work through the state; just not Craig ;)

13:44 For All Tennessee

• Takes policy ideas to the hill

• Members pay $5+/month

  • They get to vote on which issues are focused on

  • Also, people can designate their money for specific issues

• Utilizes different tactics such as pamphlets, door to door information sharing, and ads

• They do not campaign for or endorse certain politicians. They simply inform people about where all the politicians stand on important issues

• No party affiliation; just what's best for Tennessee

• “You don't fix what the government broke with more government. You can't really fix what the parties have broken with more parties, because the problem is inherent in the parties.” -Justin

• America was supposed to be self-governed through Representatives 

  • But right now there are two organizations who tell us what our options are, and we have to choose which of the 2 is less terrible

    • The only way to change that is for citizens to lean on their representatives

• Working to 

  • Find out what the citizens want 

  • Create policies

  • Lobby for representatives to vote for what do people in their district have asked 

    • If they don’t, they’ll lose votes

  • Find out what representatives think about policies and inform citizens

  • Guide people into a different mindset where they

    • Have influence over public policy

    • Don’t blindly follow government

      • They have the gift of free will 

    • Are aware of and ask for what's best for their community

  • Guide people to take a step towards freedom

• Run by this principle: get policy done that empowers people and limits government

28:23 How the founding fathers might feel about how things work now

• Rollin over in their graves

• If they were here, they’d go to war with our government

  • The federal government was never supposed to have as much power as it does

    • States were supposed to have more control

    • The federal budget is significantly higher than all the states’ budgets combined

    • The States created the federal government

      • And should therefore have more power 

    • The federal government does not constitutionally have the authority to pass a law 

      • But they've been doing it anyway for 100 years 

      • Everyone just behaves like the acts they have passed are law

33:04 Hypocrisy

• Saying we have to follow something because it's the law

  • While also dismissing laws that don't make sense

  • Or even disobeying align yourself while demanding that others get punished for it

•  Saying we should love our neighbor

  •  While also delighting in locking him up for nonviolent crimes

    •  Making his education, career, and family life a massive struggle

    •  Keeping him dependent on the state for sustenance

34:58 A new definition of politics

• Politics happens any time people interact with other people

• If you have a society full of garbage people, it is going to fail regardless of what government it has

• If you have a society full of people who truly care about others, the government won't be needed to control them

• We need a combination of 

  • A kind attitude towards each other and

  • A lack of governmental control

• We've got to focus on the goal

• We need to fix our eyes on Jesus, not what's going on in the world around us

  • Our treasure is not here on Earth 

  • But let's make the most out of what we have here

    •  While recognizing that this isn't the end for us

38:00 Working to limit police power

• Qualified immunity

  • Hasn't been voted on within the organization yet

  • They may or may not work on it, depending on the votes

• No-knock Raids

  • Worked to get 123 out of 132 votes to abolish them in TN

  • Written with police chiefs and the governor's office 

  • Tennessee already had a good record and policies in place to prevent no-knocks

    • This was just the final step

  • Police now have to report any excessive force used

  • Deescalation training is now required

40:52 Low-hanging fruit 

• Going for the policies that are already widely agreed upon

  • They are agreed upon by citizens, not necessarily representatives

  • Civil asset forfeiture

    • The government can see that you have assets and simply take them even when you have done nothing wrong

    • Many representatives see this as a necessary income stream for the government

    • Most average citizens have no idea this is a thing

      • So part of the work is to educate them and ask them to join against it

44:17 Effectiveness Analysis

• We check on the issues we worked on

• We got a bill passed on civil asset forfeiture that made the state more financially responsible when proven to be in the wrong

  • But they have a loophole

  • People are not being reimbursed for their legal fees

  • Now, we have another angle to focus on to help people

48:12 “We are nothing more than a revenue source for the government.” -Craig

• How do people not see this?

  • When a lie becomes commonplace, people just accept it

48:48 COVID migration

• People are moving to different states to escape COVID laws

  • Hopefully, those from the most extreme states don’t bring the lies they lived under with them

    • Conservatives are bad, but liberals are worse

    • Californians moving to Texas

  • In one county of TN, restaurants demanded people’s addresses in order to track their travel

• The government wants to divide and conquer us

  • We should be focusing on the similarities between groups

• Both sides want us to get vaccinated right now

  • Liberals get there by mandating what they think is good for us

  • Both are seeking gain and change culture

    • The way they want the culture to change to is different

    • Both prescribe laws for the purpose of culture shift

55:31 Plans for the new year

• Members can vote on what issues we focus on in 2022

  • Join before the deadline and get your vote in 

• If someone comes to us with $100,000 to work on a particular issue in a certain direction, we still need the approval of our members before moving forward

• As far as we know, no one else operates this way

  • If someone knows of an organization that does, please let us know so we can learn from them and be allies

• Currently, we only work in Tennessee but would love to have chapters in other states and then federally

  • Have incorporated for this reason

  • Everybody wants somebody to be doing this work 

Contact For All TN at info@foralltn.org

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47. Home School: 2021 Year End Round Table

For this year’s year-end roundtable (YERT), we have six guests and friends of the podcast, each with a different view on education to have a discussion on homeschooling in 2021.

Our guests are Abby Cleckner, Kerry Baldwin, Jordan, Nathan Moon, and Chris and Karin Polk, most of who grew up attending public schools. A few of the pannel are, or have been, teachers both within and outside of the public school system. A couple of them currently offer training or courses to adults about how to think for themselves, skills they feel they see as lacking in current public curriculums.

In this episode, we ask questions like, are schools are a training ground for compliant citizens who will pull whatever lever they are told without question? Does the system set teachers and students up to struggle?

Most of the panel currently homeschool their children and view it as the only real way to protect their family values and provide an education tailored to their specific childs’ interests.

They also discuss how formal education influences people’s understandings and perspectives on how the world works, in terms of politics and social structures in society. If our public school system was created to make a compliant labor force, with no desire to question the system or learn on their own, then we must encourage our children to pursue their personal interests, to learn how to think and enable them to with the tools to do it themselves.

Control of our children’s education starts at home. Homeschooling might seem like an impossible dream but, especially in the last couple of years, families of every background have found a way, and there are endless resources for innumerable methods to teach the next generation.

Timestamps:

00:49 Announcements for 2022

• New Bad Roman sponsorship program

  • The first 10 people who sponsor the show for 4 episodes will get a 5th episode free 

  • Advertise your podcast, product, or blog

  • Tell us what you want to say: thebadromanpodcast@gmail.com

• New co-host

  • Abby Cleckner!!

    • She’s written for the blog, been on the podcast, gone on other podcasts for the bad Roman, and just been an essential part of the work we're doing

4:08 Guest introductions

• Jordan 

  • Grew up at public school in West Texas

  • Has a teaching certificate in Texas

    •  Left public schools for so many reasons

    •  Now teaches at a university model homeschool group

•  Kerry Baldwin

  • Teacher of the Socratic Method

  • Homeschool Parent

    • Three kids

    • Divorced mom 

    • Works from home

  •  Homeschooled as a kid 

    • Before it was legal in New Mexico

      • “I like to say that my education was born from civil disobedience.”

  • Socratic method

    •  AKA inquiry-based learning

    •  Courses available for middle school on up

      • For both students and teachers leading students through the method

      • Register for summer here

• Karin Polk

  • Grew up in public school

  • Stay-at-home parent

  • Homeschooling all three kids starting 11 years ago

• Chris Polk

  • Grew up in public school

  • Claims homeschooled status for himself now because he’s learning so much with his kids

    • It’s like doing school over again, but actually learning something  

• Nathan Moon

  • Had a good experience in public school

  • Most families at their church homeschooled, so they did too

  • Taught in a public school

    • Only lasted a year

• Abby Cleckner

  • Went to public school

    • K-college

    • Moved a lot

  • Had a terrible experience when she put her kids in

    • Switched to a magnet, but then moved to rural area without one 

  • Lets her older kids decide where to go to school

    • Homeschools the younger ones

    • Older ones have chosen to stay in public

    • “Homeschooling is teaching them to be self-directed and make their own decisions and use their own logic to figure things out. And so, in that vein, I feel like it's not my place to force them into what kind of schooling.”

13:28 Why are people ignorant in 2021?

• Why don't they understand how our governmental system works?

  • Didn't we learn that in public school?

    • They actually cut civics classes out of school in the 90’s

      • But it's not only young people who don't understand

  • Perhaps people are just so focused on their favorite news anchor that they don't remember facts

    • Like that an executive order from the president can't override state law, thanks to the 10th Amendment

  • Homeschool Community has grown dramatically since COVID

  • New truckers come to Chris because they want freedom, but they've never learned to think for themselves

    • They never really learned to comprehend what they're reading or do basic math for themselves

    • If they previously worked for a big corporation, all they know is how to do what they're told 

    • His students get so frustrated when he won't just give them the answer

  • It's the same at school as in corporations

    • Sit down. Shut up. And do (or learn) what I tell you.

    • Prussian model of “Just pull the lever”. You don't have to know why

  • Schools don't care if you're learning

    • You cannot be held back when you fail; you will still graduate to the next level “for social reasons”

      • So many kids wind up graduating from high school with maybe a fifth-grade-level education because they were not required to pass their classes

        • What can they be successful at?

          •  Pulling a lever

    • Teachers are likely to care, but they're held back by the administration

      • That is why so many teachers are also leaving public schools

    • Schools don't communicate with parents

      • There was a kid who had passed a total of 3 classes in all of high school, and his parents didn't find out until the school informed them that he wasn't graduating at the end of his senior year

24:24 Why are teachers leaving public schools?

• From a behavioral standpoint, if you take an underpaid overworked position and pile more work on it, people are going to want to escape that position

  • Teachers do many hours of extra work outside the classroom during the summer and at home during the school year

  • The average secondary school teacher has about 120 students they are solely responsible for teaching in their subject

    •  No support from parents

    •  Lots of red tape from admin

  • That's why teachers are always so excited for summer

  • COVID brought very different expectations to the position

    • Tons of extra work

  • So, we have a teacher shortage

• If a student is willing to take advanced classes, they might get a decent education

• Schools often hire people who don't have a teaching degree as long as they are in school to finish that degree

  • “Almost anyone can be a teacher. All you have to do is just find the Craigslist ad and dust off your transcripts. But that doesn't mean that you're a good teacher.” -Nathan

• “A lot of parents are pulling their kids from public education because they're realizing they're not receiving systematic instruction, they're receiving systematic indoctrination.” -Nathan

  • Teachers are also realizing this and are unwilling to participate

• Teachers almost never quit because they don't like teaching or because of the children

  • It’s the policies they have to follow

• This disaster started in the 1800's when we changed our education system

  • Suddenly, professionals/the state were responsible for teaching our children rather than their parents

  • It contributes to the breakdown of the family

  • Parents don't know how their kids are doing in school

    • Teachers watch the children failing, and are tied down by policies that prevent them from intervening

32:18 The roles of students and teachers

• “When we talk about education, we are talking about what the adults are doing for the kids, but. We're not talking about what the kids are doing in order to learn. And this is, I think, a mistake.” -Kerry

  • Students’ interest is essential

    • Even the greatest teacher cannot teach students who don't care about the subject

• Teachers: architects or gardeners?

  • Architects build a very specific product

    • This is what public schools want teachers to be

  • Gardners feed and tend to their plants, which will not come out looking identical 

    • Provide the environment; it's up to the plants to grow

• Whose responsibility is it to make the school look good?

  • “Administrators and bureaucrats put a ton of pressure on teachers, teachers, in turn, put a ton of pressure on kids and parents, parents put a ton of pressure on kids and kids are carrying the education systems on their backs.” -Kerry

• “Education is learning how to learn so that you can teach yourself whatever it is that you want to teach yourself.” -Kerry 

  • It isn’t learning a bunch of facts

    • It's learning why those facts are important

  • Parents aren't going to know everything, so it's important the kids know how to learn on their own or alongside their parent

41:13 Curriculum

• A curriculum that worked well for one kid is not likely to work well for all of them

  • Don't expect to use the same one for all of your children

  • We cannot recommend a curriculum that will work well for every child

• Many new homeschool parents seek to replicate public school at home

  • Everyone gets burned out

  • The parents feel like failures

  • Breathe and just go with what they're interested in.

    • They will learn naturally

    • “Keep it simple, Stupid.” -Chris 

43:35 How has education influenced what we've seen happening these last couple years?

• Public schools don't teach how to analyze a text

  • People have not been critically reading the articles they consume

    • They don't know how to tell what information is important and how to apply it to their life

• Even a lot of homeschool curriculum is just filling in bubbles with the right information

• Instead of bullet points and boring charts, information should be narrative

  • That's what humans naturally are; that's how we've always learned 

• When kids are learning about their personal interests, they learn a lot more quickly and in-depth than when a tired teacher is trying to reach 30 students who don't want to be there every day

• Kids also need more time to play and learn that way

  • Developmentally, they simply cannot be expected to sit still for 8 hours every day with only two 15-minute breaks

    • Actually, adults shouldn't be expected to do that either!

•  Homeschoolers can go as in-depth on a topic if they want

  •  They’ll learn more than just the public school propaganda:

    • This bad thing happened in history, but America swooped in and saved the day. The end.

• If a student wants to learn more about a topic or keep reading, that's seen as a problem, and they “need to learn to work on their transitions”; to comply with the system better 

  • Kids aren't allowed to enjoy learning, so they quit trying

  • They're rewarded for pulling the lever, not for exploring why the lever is there

  • Learning is not encouraged; compliance is

• MAGA makes sense when you think of the public school history propaganda

  • We all learned that, especially back in the 40s and 50s, America solved all the world's problems and was a prosperous nation

    • “They're too dumb to know they're dumb” -Jordan

  • But now schools have swung away from this teaching

    •  Changed to: America is the worst. White people are the worst. 

  • The only way you'll have control over what your children learn and the values instilled in their brains is to home-school them

    • A lot of people think there's no way they can homeschool their kids

      • They are losing free babysitting

      • There’s the pressure to succeed that comes from government requirements for teachers, schools, and students

      • But the lesson time takes half as long

      • All types of parents have found a way to succeed

    • If you know the Socratic method, you can learn even from the most terrible, one-sided curriculum

      • Because you’ll know how to ask the right questions

• Media represented by talking heads who were taught what to think

• But there are exciting technologies coming

  • Like blockchain

  • We can get ourselves and our kids ahead of the game by learning about it while most students are busy being indoctrinated

1:10:07 Options for homeschooling

• University Model

  •  Kids go into a small school 2 or 3 days a week

  •  The other days, they are at home doing their homework 

• Or at least find a co-op of other parents who can support your journey

• YOU ARE QUALIFIED TO TEACH YOUR CHILD

• There are so many tools available for all different styles of learning

• We don't need the Department of Education

  • They were only established in the 70s

  • Our education system would probably improve if they went under because everyone would be homeschooling 

  • It's actually unconstitutional and should never have existed 

1:14:03 Final Thoughts & Where to Connect with our Guest

• Nathan

  • Homeschooling is possible for your family. You can find a way

    • Even if you don't do it, do take a greater interest in your child's education

    • Take the initiative

  • Theology Writings 

  • Fiction Writing and Poetry 

    • Children can send submissions here, and I’ll post them

• Chris

  •  We should get disgruntled teachers to open little schools

  • Trucking company, Blue Ribbon Logistics

  • Podcast

•  Jordan

  • You can't do it wrong

    • If you're considering changing your child's schooling, you clearly love them and want what's best for them

    • Follow your gut

    • They are your child, given to you because you would know how to care for them

• Kerry

  • Socratic Method Courses

  • Email

• Abby

  • The homeschool community continues to grow exponentially

  • Even people who are fans of the public school system have criticisms

  • COVID regulations have made schools into literal prisons

  • Find me on the Bad Roman podcast!

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33. Politics & Religion Roundtable with Two Christian Anarchist & Two Atheist

What does Christianity look like to a non-Christian? How does the secular world view Christian involvement in politics? Craig and Abby Cleckner(well know Bad Roman Christian-Anarchist) sit down with Nick and Josh(self-proclaimed atheist, who come with a mix of libertarian and socialists political views) to discuss faith, the state, and the mixed messages they see from Christians when these two worlds collide. In a true demonstration of how to have a civil conversation, we invite you to join us, from whatever political or faith background you may hail from, to keep asking questions and having hard conversations, especially with those you may assume you disagree with. Maybe God gave us atheists so we never stop asking questions in a pursuit to follow Christ.

Timestamps and Starting Points:

00:22 Episode Intro - What does christianity look like from a non Christian perspective? 

01:28 Josh’s Background

•  Atheist

•  Studies Mathematics at graduate level, undergrad in Physics 

• Libertarian/socialist political views

2:06 Nick’s Background

•  Atheist

• Socialist(technically)

• Non-religious background

3:48 Fundamental opposition to Christianity itself or how Christians behave vs. what they claim to believe?

• Josh’s background with Christianity and religion

  • Science and religion

  • Difference of geography

  • Christian believers and Islamic believers devoutness is the same

  • Poison of religious beliefs in politics

  • “Going to hell for voting for a democrat”

• Nick’s experience with religion

  • Never brought up with the Bible, has not read the entire things

  • Christians seem to not care about Bible in way they act

  • Told he was going to hell the one time he went to church

  • Fear based religion contradicts with idea of “loving God”

13:27 In John 3:6 Jesus says “if you do not remain in me you are like a branch that is withered, such branches are picked up thrown into the fire and burned” - is that not aggressive from a pacifist stance?

• Diversity in Christian Belief, we read the Bible with baggage

• Bible uses hyperbole

• Jesus never said to subscribe to certain beliefs, but to follow him and how he treats people. If you try to rule over them you will experience being “cast out like a branch”

16:55  Abby and Craig’s stance on scientific knowledge, how does it affect your views? 

• Craig keeps it simple, follow Christ is the best he can do

• Abby - the bible is not a scientific document, but science can have religious elements.

  • As anarchist, money for science comes from government which is a contention

21:18 How has Josh’s understanding of science discount the existence of God, why couldn't he be the one who generated the science? 

•  No physical/natural evidence for God

• Perfectly ok imagining God as the master mathematician

• Cannot accept monotheistic view of something that can be a part of the natural world, but also not be

24:02  Mythology & Religion

• Means to explain the unknown(pre-science and pre/within religion)

• Search for simple pleasant answer

28:13 Science is always pitted against religion, but are the two really opposed?

• People have different levels of need for certainty

• It is important to keep asking questions on both sides 

• Religion ask us to follow faith, feelings/belief, to be accepted, while science requires replicable evidence before it is accepted as knowledge 

33:57 Christians and Government 

• Josh - very hypocritical, evangelical shouting

• Nick - sickened on every level by the hypocrisy and lack of empathy for fellow man, amplified even more in evangelical movements

• Praying for votes?

• Equating Trump as chosen by God and America as doomed by his defeat

• The Rapture

39:18 Fear based gospel & the evangelical love for Trump

• Franklin Graham

• Early church and the state

• What does God care about? 

• Romans 13 

41:28 If Christians were not being hypocritical how would they act in the political realm?

• Josh- Government would tend toward a secular system if beliefs were “checked at door” and there would be no issue. The problem begins when a narrow view from the Bible is imposed on laws today.

• Nick - when Christians get into gov’t it’s their rights above all others, which seems to be in bad faith, when rhetoric of the evangelical base seems hate filled.

• Where were the evangelicals speaking out against kids in cages?

44:57 Christians need to understand the Republican party is not pro-life or Liberty

• Why do they care more about fetuses than people who are already alive?

• Never ending wars? 

47:17 Donald Trump is more akin to the antiChrist

• Trump “I never had a reason to ask for forgiveness”

• Is he what Christians actually stand for vs. what they proclaim to stand for?

53:11 People raised in the mindset of all powerful God, adopt a very top-down authoritarian worldview, does this prime these future voters to fall for someone like Trump?

• Mass incarceration, uncountable amount of laws, need for authority

• Theocracy is equally unsettling  

• Avoiding extreme positions, forgetting the nuances - math and life

• Thought crime

• Authoritarian political candidates and authoritarian view of religion

58:10 Is there Hell?

• Universalist Ideal

• Hell is an experience we have in life not eternal torment

• Jewish Mysticism - Kabbalah and Hell

• Worshiping the Bible vs. Jesus

1:01:46 Is the Bible the word of God or translation from others?

• The bible is a translation and collection of stories written by multiple people

• Just follow Jesus

• We are not going to full understand it in today's terms because of its origin

1:03:15  Dangers of having multiple interpretations of the BIble - is this the reason why it needs to be out of politics and why we need some level of secular governance?

• “The evangelical vote”

• Josh - don’t we need government to do some level of things

  • Markets can be forms/sources of authoritarianism?

    • Free market - Libertarian right, eco-libertarian, anarcho-capitalist

      • Monopolies that suppress rights of people

  • Abby - not possible without gov’t support to get Barons of industry, we don’t have true competition in the market because of regulations stopping it

1:07:15 The freer the market the freer the people?

• Josh - market is a tool, in some circles the market becomes the government

  • Things like climate change or harmful products require some kind of oversight to remove dangerous things from being freely traded

• Clear Patterson - geochemist, discovered age of earth and that lead content in water/atmosphere was toxic

• Are oil companies the market? No, because it is controlled by the government, not a free market.

 1:11:05 What can Christians do differently to make non-christians be non-resentful towards Christains? 

• Nick - Christianity is too far gone? 

• Religion vs. Christianity 

• Why Craig is not a big fan or religion anymore 

• Josh - ignoring science in facts is where he loses them, if in any sort of public entity that has to be checked at the door 

• Morality can not be legislated

11:16:16 Outsourcing morality to the state, Is the state evil?

• Nick - tries to be cautious of notions of good vs. evil to avoid black and white dichotomy.

  • Bigger issue is our system is broken on almost every level

  • We all have our individual ideas but putting them into action is what's difficult

  • Is there a system now that truly benefits everyone?

•  Can you change the mafia from the inside?

•  Josh - saying all government does is evil ignores success of government, it is a tool that can be used both for “evil” and “good”; government meaning a collection of people who have come together to navigate something

• Abby - initiating violence is never permissible

1:21:23 Violence by government - what do we define as violence? 

• Josh - harming human beings is violence or but being taxed?

• Craig - majority of taxes go to military to kill people we will never meet in our lives

• Voluntary Taxation Systems - base taxes then option to choose where your tax portion goes

1:24:18 Majority of Christians celebrate war

• Blind patriotism - weird sense of freedom

• Care more about soldiers who have died than those who come back injured

1:29:57 American exceptionalism & Christianity

• God created everybody

• Being a living God means he doesn’t control anything

• Can’t pray cancer away with enough faith

• Story of three boats

1:33:21 Prosperity Gospel - televangelist - the people who exploit people’s faith and profit

1:36:14 Be a Cheerful giver - Doctrines and Children

• Science must exist in free system

• How can a Christian grow in their faith without questioning what is going on? 

 1:39:39 Josh’s Plug’s

• Articles at universe today Josh Campbell

• Journey to the Stars

7. Aree Spivey & Brian Grant - Failed Kingdoms

Craig speaks with Aree Spivey and Brian Grant from the music group Failed Kingdoms about becoming Christian-Anarchists and their perspectives on the current state of American society following the events of George Floyd’s death. 

Starting points for further exploration & what’s in the show:

01:39 - Introduction/Background - Failed Kingdoms - Aree and Brian 

03:52 - Aree’s  Path Towards Anarchy

06:23 - Jesus and the Eyewitnesses: The Gospels as Eyewitness Testimony

08:45 - Greg Boyd

12:38 - Brian’s Path Towards Anarchy

17:21 - Black Lives Matter/Police/Media Discussion

18:38 - Duncan Lemp

27:12 - Ahmaud Arbery

28:03 - What’s the Issue/Solution?

44:08 - About Failed Kingdoms

Key Words: Statism, Libertarianism, Anarchism, Collectivism  

To connect with Failed Kingdoms: Facebook, SoundCloud, Instagram